Armour in North Africa (1 Viewer)

H

h.hammer

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Reding various posts on KandC, i feel that Kand C is missing a golden opportunity.There have been numerous complaints on this forum and others that 8TH army Africa has no armour.Honor Bound hope fully will come out with a desert Sherman but why does Kand C produce Matilda's and Vickers for the British, while the Africa Corps sets are replete with PZKW II,III, and IV."all things German", may appeal to some but in this case there is too much of a discrepancy between the Allies and the Axis, in the desert.
I was pleased to hear at the symposium,that we have enough Germans for awhile,but i stiil feel that the British 8TH army could use a Sherman,or a Honey, or a Crusader,or a Priest,etc..
Hope i didn't insult anyone's sensibilities but i am am expressing a feeling that i share with other dedicated KandC collectors
harvey
 
The bottom line is that German armour sells better. No matter how many Tiger Tanks or 88's there are there seems to be a market. British armour doesn't sell as well. I think K and C Uk still have some linited edition Sherman Tansk from teh Gaurds Division almost 18 months after they were released in a limited edition of 500. Try and get hold of Rommels Grief and see how far you get. This is not a new phenomenon. Even Tamiya plastci kits used to be predominantly German in orinetation. It is like the EAstern front Russians they just don't strike a cord with teh buying public. No-one knows why
 
Maybe because the Germans are gathering and coming back..:eek: :eek:

Gentlemen, the real question remains.... Where are the Americans for North Africa?? :D
 
North Africa has always been associated in the mind of the collecting community as a British and Empire show with operation Torch really being part of the whole Sicily and Italian build up. Even when Airfix and Britains Deetail were in production in the 1970's and that is where a lot of us cut our collecting teeth as kids, the war in the DEsert was a British affair. I just don't see making Americans from Torch as a viable concern. That seems to be Andy's opinion as well. Just like British figures for D-Day are not very thick on teh ground so I don't see American figures from Torch making it big. Anyway why can't you leave it as a predominatly British affair
 
damian said:
North Africa has always been associated in the mind of the collecting community as a British and Empire show with operation Torch really being part of the whole Sicily and Italian build up. Even when Airfix and Britains Deetail were in production in the 1970's and that is where a lot of us cut our collecting teeth as kids, the war in the DEsert was a British affair. I just don't see making Americans from Torch as a viable concern. That seems to be Andy's opinion as well. Just like British figures for D-Day are not very thick on teh ground so I don't see American figures from Torch making it big. Anyway why can't you leave it as a predominatly British affair
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Why does North Africa it have to be a predominatly British thing?

I would agree that Monty and his troops were the leaders in the battles of North Africa - I think Andy should look at a Italy Campaign range with Americans and you could use those small troops for a North Africa diaorama as well.

I think it would sell.
 
I can see Rons point here,he's a very proud American and wants to see US troops in North Africa.However sometimes you just have to roll with the punches.I myself as a proud Brit am often annoyed by peoples perception of D Day as a U.S operation.(not many people realise more Brit and commonwealth troops were landed than U.S ones!)

However the trouble i think is this.The NA American troops would look far to similar to the US D Day troops.And part of the selling 'hook' of a new range(i would imagine)is the difference to other ranges.And i feel there would be too little difference here.So i fear Ron may be swimming against the tide on this one however its a free Ocean so dive in Ron!(enough with the sea metaphors!)

If i were going to see more US ETO troops i'd like them in Italy.Lets leave NA to Monty and have Mark Clark in Italy.(Even if some people think he turned the wrong way!...only kidding)

Rob
 
The themes in the toy soldier world are strangely resistant to change. The Italian campaign has never really caught collectors imagination. The only battle there that is popular is Monte Cassino. That may appeal to everyone, Americans, British and South African and Polish (especially important) and Indian soldiers as well as those Falschirmjagers that everybody loves. But it will take a brave jump for a manufacturer to do this. D-Day and Arnhem and the Bulge seem to be perrenial favourites. Andy has shown some of this grit by doing the FOB stuff as no-one had ever done that before. I wonder how well that has sold. Andy has indicated that the EAstern front just does not sell. There have been lots of threads about this and most of us with a smattering of knowledge about WWII realize just how inportant and vast the Eastern front was however it just does not sell. Why a praticular campaign or battle is popualr whilst other equally important or vicious battles languish in obscurity is a mystery
 
Yes its perplexing about the Eastern front not selling well?.Perhaps despite the awful losses and sacrafice the Russian people made they are seen as secretive,savage and cruel(not my view).Theres no doubt their behaviour in Berlin has coloured many peoples view of them.I don't think its anything to do with the actual models.Take the T34,a great example of Andys craftmanship and an excellant addition to any tank collection.

Its funny how people perceptions and prejudices can effect their buying strategy.I must say i am uneasy about buying the Japenese troops.This a direct result of how they treated my countrymen in WW2,and yet i am not squeamish about buying Germans who killed thousands and thousands of innocent civilians of my country in air raids.

As you say its a mystery why some battles are more popular than others,maybe in Russia there is very little interest in D-Day,Dunkirk or Italy?.If i had unlimited funds i would definetly buy the Russians,but i havn't so its all about priorities.....but when i win the lottery !

Rob
 
:) Hello Guys! OK, Capiltron, Rob! Italian M-14/40, Semovente 40-Self-Propelled, and for Louis, and AB41-Armoured Car!At Least 6-Fighting Italian ( BlackShirt) Infantry, BREDA-MG Team,and Mortar Team! And Possible a Motorcycle-Dispatch Rider! That's All for the Italians? And we're satisfied! NOW, for the ---- BRITISH, 8th Army---NEW Armoured Car-----HUMBER/AEC Daimler Car-----Crusader Tank---Honey/Stuart Light Tank-------M-3 Grant Tank-----------HB may be doing a Desert Sherman?-----Repainted DD59-Bren Carrier------M-7 (Priest)S.P.------ Bofors40-MM Anti-Aircraft Gun Crew ( SHIRTLESS)?:cool: ----MORE AUSSIE INFANTRY/BRITISH-Scotts-Irish-French?
 
Fascinating discussion. I agree that most of North Africa is regarded a German vs British affair. Look at K&C, he is one of the few to produce Indian troops and some French. You need Aussies, Kiwis, South Africans, the Jewish Brigade, and even the ten US Army tank crews that served with the British about the time of Alamein. Speaking of Americans, don't forget the US Ordnance troops in Egypt that helped the 8th Army unpack and prepare those tanks and train the Brits in their use.

People don't think of it, but the desert war occurred in "phases", many manked by the geography or the equipment used. By the time of Alamein there weren't many British-built tanks in frontline units. By then they were using Shermans, Grants, Lees, Stuarts ("Honeys"), with some "Priest" SPs. There were a number of Crusaders and Matildas. Andy just has picked British armor from earlier phases. There is lots of time for "fearless leader" to produce more vehicles from later phases.

Gary
 
My tuppence worth - I like the early phase stuff - mark6 etc :) but actually much of the stuff produced is later, post afrika corps arrival - so JG has a point when he asks for more Italian stuff. Love a WW1 veteran RR armoured car of the 'cherry pickers' in late 1940 for example.

Also the germans have a pz4 L43 or L48 (mark 4 special to the British) which was 1942 onwards - and what looks like a 50mm pz3 - so the poor Matilda and mark6 are really up against it.:confused:

In my BB scenario in the diorama section I had the same problem - only one M10 against the whole ss panzer corps.:eek:

But it is about what sells......:rolleyes:
 
I often think John has an incredible memory for his subject or some really good books near his computer!.Some really good ideas there.I really think that the North Africa series will go from strength to strength.And of course hopefully Andy will go on producing for years and years,so imagine all the good things to come!.

Whether its right or wrong North Africa will always be most closely associated with Brits v Afrika corps,despite American involvement in operation torch.But this is often the case,how many people appreciate that the British were involved in the Battle of the Bulge for instance?.But i think its ok,because we have more US troops for D day and a big British and commonwealth presence for NA.Its all balanced out really.

Rob
 
Were there any British airborne units at D Day with the Americans?
 
Not with the Americans but at the other end of the landing zone, at the end of the British sector.(there were three British beaches to the Americans two)They secured a vital bridge and attacked and knocked out the Merville battery.

Rob
 
Yeah should be fine.Can also use D Day Germans in Arnhem.(thats why Andy's not making any special)

Rob
 
Well to further make my point - Remember, you dont know what will really sell or not when it comes to starting a new range. Andy, told me in NYC that the FoB range is doing very well - actually I think he said surprizingly well.

My thought is to have figures that can be used in several ranges and give the collector greater flexiblity. So an Italian Campaign line could do that.

I would also like to point out that the USA is the single largest market for K&C products - so adding americans does make business sense - IMO. :D
 
I think it's a good idea to have figure sets that you can use in a number of theatres. And in fact I feel some of the previous K & C sets have been a bit restrictive in their naming. I understand there is a uniqueness factor with sets being labeled for the various battles, but personally I'd rather not have a wide variety of ranges in my collection. However I feel there is scope for limited issues of armor and other vehicles. For example a US desert Sherman appropriate for the African theatre would be a popular set imo. And of course the current British Sherman and Churchill (a good set imo) fit in with the current D-Day and Normandy stuff.
 
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We should move away from the idea that any American set will sell. Apparently teh IWo Jima stuff did not sell and Flags of Our Fathers was not a great financial success. Leave teh desert war alone. It has a long history in the colecting world of being about the great Battle of Alamein not about Operation Torch. I think we should trya and see if we could not get Monte Cassino sets. We can use our current DD stes in other dioramas. They are not necessarily specific.I want use my BOB Germans as Eastern Front soldiers.
 
It's still my opinion that a Desert based Sherman tank would sell well, you clearly have another opinion.

As for Iwo Jima and Flags of our Fathers. The fact is that Pacific theatre based sets, especially Japanese, don't have a good sales record and I reminded some people of that when the movie was coming out. It didn't help that the movie wasn't overly popular.

However, the African theatre is about second in popularity to the Western Campaign, and considering the popularity of the Sherman in general (not my fav btw) I feel it would be a popular set.

I agree with you about Monte Cassino etc and I would like to see some sets based on the campaign in Italy, but I'm not sure of the commercial viability of it. However I didn't think the FOB would be very popular either, but apparently it is doing ok, so who knows. Variety is the spice of life as they say.

There are some interesting things about the combatants in Italy that may prove attractive to collectors. One being the mixture of Tropical and Continental clothing. And the SS also used some Italian made camo which would make a difference to some dios. Another feature of the Italian campaign is the fact that most of the German armor used there were Stugs and other tank destroyer types rather than tanks. I'm sure there are plenty of collectors that would like to see a new K & C Stug with some new track treatment :D
 
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