Nazi death camp on sale (1 Viewer)

[Poppo]

Next june the 22nd the Polish State Railways will be selling what remains of the Nazi death camp of Belzec, where they were murdered hundreds of thousands of men, women and children, mostly Jews. These include former "Kommandantur", the place from which the SS ran the daily organization of the camp. It will go on sale at auction for 39 thousand euro, despite requests from various international organizations to save the building and to entrust it to close Memorial of the gas chambers.

 

[Napoleon1er]

If I didn't respect the owners of this forum as much as I do, I would break their rules and write this post primarily in profanity.

Suffice to say, it chills me to the core to think that someone could do this. I would venture a guess that it will be stopped, but I am almost at a loss for words. If I could get out of school, I would go over there and refuse to leave until they canceled the sale. People died on that ground...... it's like the son of a murderer selling a cemetery containing his father's victims.

-Sandor

 

[zblang]

can you post a link to this? I can't find it online

 

[Poppo]

I translated from the " corriere della sera", the main italian newspaper:




"The EU blocks the sale of the remains of the former camp at Belzec, "is the appeal ANED, which continues in a statement:" The Italian former deportees in Nazi camps appeal to the European Union and in particular to Federica Mogherini, EU High Representative for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy, because it prevented the dismantling of the memorial place. The European Commission must take immediate action at the Polish Government asking to block the sale, and if necessary, by purchasing in person, on behalf of all the peoples of Europe, a building that preserves the history of the suffering caused by the criminal policy of extermination of Nazism ». ANED has declared its determination to participate along with other auction of June 22, as of now allocating a reasonable figure and is committed to promoting a public subscription for this purpose.

The history of the extermination camp

Opened in 1942, it is the second Belzec extermination camp of the Nazis, after that of Chelmno. The camps of Belzec, although far less known than many others, was among the deadliest fields entire Nazi concentration camp universe as death toll: 522,600 Jews between March and December which add up 430 Jews killed in the first experiments made Polish Catholics died and 1500, nearly half of the more infamous Auschwitz-Birkenau, but in a fraction of the time.
It was the first of three notorious concentration camps to be built in deep east in the territories occupied by the Nazis in Poland, followed a few months later from Sobibor and Treblinka, which served as a model.

The organization of the concentration camps and gas chambers

There were selections for work on arrival, or barracks for the detention of prisoners, or registrations, except for those of laborers of lager and disposal of dead bodies; This is because at Belzec exterminated deportees arrived in the gas chambers. The gas chambers were operated with engines in carbon monoxide. The commander of the camp for extermination used monoxide obtained from discharges of diesel of Russian tanks taken on the Eastern Front. There were not even crematoria and the bodies were buried in dozens of mass graves.
It is estimated that only seven prisoners at Belzec were alive at the end of World War II. Of these seven Rudolf Reber and Chaim Hirszmann testified in the courts for the crimes committed at Belzec.

 

[Napoleon1er]

Thanks for posting this.

 

[Martin Tabony]

The Polish government must know what kind of a reaction there would be! I wonder if this is a ruse to get the European government to pay for it?

Martin

 

[Mirof]

To be clear, as there are lot of association with the logo ANED

I guess Martin is speaking about this one
http://www.deportati.it/e_aned/english_aned.html

 

[jazzeum]

Coming from the Poles, this hardly surprises me.

 

[Poppo]

Coming from the Poles, this hardly surprises me.

Also many polish not jewish were killed in the nazi camps, for examples the camps were tested by killing polish women and children. I read in Auschwitz that Poland lost 6 millions people in ww2, 3 millions jews, and 3 not jews.About anti semitism in Poland today, in my staying in Poland, I only just felt some resentemnt against the communists and against Russia, but that' s just my personal feeling.

 

[jazzeum]

There's probably no anti semitism today because only 25,000 are left.

 

[Terp152]

Coming from the Poles, this hardly surprises me.

True Brad. Polish people continued to commit atrocities against Jews AFTER the conclusion of WWII. The remnants of the Jewish population immigrated to Israel. Chris

 

[DMNamiot]

Hi Guys,

I have been living here in Poland for the last 2 years. This country has a lot of issues as do all of ours, but using blanket terms to basicly say that they are prejudiced is a bit out of line. Sure they have people who are anti-Semites or anti communist or anti nazi but then again I will say all of our countries have these issues. The atrocities committed in this country after WWII were state sponsored Pogroms run by the Soviets in conjunction with the Puppet Government they set up in Warsaw, dont forget that Stalin killed more than his fair share of Jews too.

As to the real issue of what to do about this camp the bottom line is this isnt a rich country they are getting better but the years for communism did a number on this countries economy so it will take a while before they can manage the cost of preserving a place like this. Dont get me wrong, I want to see site like this preserved for the education of future generations, but just because it is in Poland doesn't make it up to them to preserve. The EU and the World must decide if it is necessary and if so then the EU should help to cover the cost to preserve this site.

Dave

 

[jazzeum]

As a general rule, engaging in broad generalizations is dangerous. However, it's no excuse that the pogroms against the remaining Jews were carried out by the government set up by the Russians as that was and remained the legally constituted government for more than 40 years.

Moreover, Poland (along with Lithuania and the Ukraine) ran along the Pale of Settlement and it was within the regions along the Pale that atrocities before and after WW II were committed against the Jews, including the deaths of some of my distant relatives. So, yes, I have no love for those groups at all although I recognize that a whole nation or people shouldn't be indicted.

It was the Nazis' special gift (and I'm being intentionally sarcastic), whether intentionally or unintentionally, that they exposed the fault lines along the Pale of Settlement as peoples (not just Jews) who had lived together in more or less relative harmony all their lives turned on each other.

Again, what the Polish government is doing is not particularly surprising to me. You may have lived there for two years but you really have no idea what it was like and -- thank god -- neither do I.

If you want to get an idea, try reading Martin Gilbert's The Holocaust or The Lost: A Search for Six of Six Million by Daniel Mendelsohn. The latter is one of the best books I've ever read. His Uncle's family disappeared during the Holocaust and no one ever knew what happened to them. He set out to find out. It personalizes the Holocaust by focusing on six people when the 6,000,000 million number is so vast and huge that it's impossible to grasp.

Another excellent book, if just for the bloodletting that went along the Pale, is Niall Ferguson's The War of the World.

 

[Terp152]

Hi Guys,

I have been living here in Poland for the last 2 years. This country has a lot of issues as do all of ours, but using blanket terms to basicly say that they are prejudiced is a bit out of line. Sure they have people who are anti-Semites or anti communist or anti nazi but then again I will say all of our countries have these issues. The atrocities committed in this country after WWII were state sponsored Pogroms run by the Soviets in conjunction with the Puppet Government they set up in Warsaw, dont forget that Stalin killed more than his fair share of Jews too.

As to the real issue of what to do about this camp the bottom line is this isnt a rich country they are getting better but the years for communism did a number on this countries economy so it will take a while before they can manage the cost of preserving a place like this. Dont get me wrong, I want to see site like this preserved for the education of future generations, but just because it is in Poland doesn't make it up to them to preserve. The EU and the World must decide if it is necessary and if so then the EU should help to cover the cost to preserve this site.

Dave

Dave, I believe a bit disingenuous to blame the post-war Polish pograms on the communists. Read Savage Continent by Keith Lowe, p 204, regarding the Kielce massacre. This had nothing to do with the communist regime. The murdered Jews included 3 soldiers who had won the highest decorations fighting for Poland. Chris

 

[Napoleon1er]

This country has a lot of issues as do all of ours, but using blanket terms to basically say that they are prejudiced is a bit out of line.

While it is hard for those for us who lost relatives in the Holocaust to refrain from such generalizations, I agree that they are wrong. Both groups need to understand what the other is thinking.

As to the real issue of what to do about this camp the bottom line is this isn't a rich country [...] so it will take a while before they can manage the cost of preserving a place like this. [...] The EU and the World must decide if it is necessary and if so then the EU should help to cover the cost to preserve this site.

This is where I disagree. I have the utmost respect for the many Poles who resisted the Nazis, but many of them also cooperated. It is therefore the moral duty of the Polish state to preserve the memory of its atrocities. Not all of Europe cooperated, so not all of Europe should have to pay. I would not object, however, to forcing the Germans to pay half of the cost.


I hope none of my comments come off as offensive. That was not the intent.

With kind regards,
Sandor

 

[DMNamiot]

Hi Guys,

Brad, I lost too many relatives to get into a pissing match on this issue. My fathers family was totally destroyed except for the 3 who made it to the US. So yes I have a lot to be pissed over with this issue. The Nazis and the Communists killed them. No need for more discussion on that subject.

The rest of you have valid points but please dont tell me to read a book on the subject when I had grand dad and others tell me stories straight from the horses mouth so to speak. I have read plenty of books on the subject and am fully aware of the issues and know about the Pale of Settlement too. These countries all have a long history of persecution of Jews as do many Western Countries its not a new subject its been happening since the Despora. While I will agree that these countries mentioned all have dark pasts on the issue of Pogroms and terror and there is a big need to educate people on this subject, but really do you think that by turning Belzac into a tourist site these needs will be met? I am not so sure. They (Poland) have maintained Auschwitz and it is a stark and serious reminder of what took place, if you have not been then go and see for yourself, it is overwhelming when you look at the scale of it. However this leads me to a question, by someone preserving a concentration or death camp are we preventing it from happening again? If you think we are then again I ask who pays to maintain Belzac? I think it should be the whole EU not just Germany.

Sandor, on the subject of collaboration by poles while they were occupied by the Germans, I cant talk real numbers because I dont know them. I do know that they suffered at the hands of the Germans and then by the hands of the Russians when the regime was again changed. Someone mentioned 3 million Poles being killed which seems to be a pretty significant number of their pre war population but again I havent taken the time to look up the numbers. I do know that they lost around 230,000 when they tried to kick the Germans out of Warsaw in 44 while the Russians sat by and watched during a "Tactical Pause" on their drive towards Berlin. So are the sin-less in the destruction of the Jews, no, but they also lost a lot of people to the war and then had to suffer the occupation of the Soviets and the rule of a puppet government even if it was "constitutionally elected" hard not to elect a government when there is no opposition...

Dave

 

[jazzeum]

A little hot under the collar aren't we this morning :wink2: You have basically made my point about these countries and their long history of persecution (which is why I have no great love for them) so no need to re-emphasize the point. By the way it's spelled diaspora.

One can always read books about a subject but when someone makes a suggestion about a topic, I tend to be gracious about it and investigate the recommendations. Gilbert's book is particularly harrowing (especially about Belzec) and not the kind that can be read cover to cover. I've been reading it for years as it's just too gruesome to stomach it all at once.

There is a need to educate as a constant reminder and, of course, there is no guarantee that genocide will not happen again because it has been happening all over the works since WW II, e.g. Rwanda. Unfortunately, there is no expiration date on hatred of other peoples.

I also believe sites as these should be maintained in the same sense and for the same reasons we try to preserve historical sites in this country.

 

[DMNamiot]

Hi Brad,

Spelling aside I think we agree on the basic issue of the subject.

Also, I do/will consider the books but the point I was trying to make was I have heard the tales from folks who lived it and knew people/relatives who died there.

Have a good day.

Dave

 

[jazzeum]

Apologies for the sarcasm :redface2: and understand your points.

The reason I like the Gilbert book is because a lot of it is based on and uses accounts of survivors; a good portion of it is oral history, which gives it an immediacy.

I found The Lost a fascinating book because the author has an uncanny resemblance to his long lost great Uncle. There were several brothers (as I recall) who moved to the United States. However, one brother decided he liked it better in Poland and moved back, a fatal mistake in retrospect. He starts out the book by detailing how his relatives when he visited them in Florida would remark how much he looked like his great Uncle and the book moves on from there. The book reads a lot like a detective story as he tries to find out how exactly his great Uncle and Aunt and their four daughters died. His search takes him to Australia, California and the Ukraine until he finally finds out. I lent the book out to someone but never got it back and am now in the process of re-purchasing it; I want to read it again.

Brad

 

[nmrocks]

Pick out any country or ethnic group you like nowadays, doesn't seem to matter much, for 80% of the world this type of behavior is "standard operating procedure" and just a day in the life (or death). No matter what advances human kind makes, this behavior is not slowed, if anything it continues to escalate. I naively used to think it was an educational issue, if only they had a good education, they wouldn't feel the need to wipe out "lesser people", not so, the Terrorist and gov't leaders who run these programs and the people carrying them out are often the highest educated in there lands and will invent an ax to grind if one does not exist.
Even with all it's troubles, we are sooo lucky to live in this country!
Ray