What draws your interests in Afrika Korps? AK Vs WS (1 Viewer)

[Rob]

One other tiny thing to remember about Rommel,one of the greatest Generals in History he may have been,was still a b**** Nazi!.I shed no tears over his death whatsoever.I only wish that Spitfire had found him long before it did.Lets remember if the Nazi scum had won the war Rommel would probably have been in charge of some poor occupied country. I think appreciation of military genius is one thing,hero worship of a commited Nazi is creepy.

Rob

 

[maddadicus]

One other tiny thing to remember about Rommel,one of the greatest Generals in History he may have been,was still a b**** Nazi!.I shed no tears over his death whatsoever.I only wish that Spitfire had found him long before it did.Lets remember if the Nazi scum had won the war Rommel would probably have been in charge of some poor occupied country. I think appreciation of military genius is one thing,hero worship of a commited Nazi is creepy.

Rob

Even though I am a historian type, I separate my war like interests between political history and tactical history....In other words, how the warriors get to the point of battle ,frustrates me to tears, because of mans' inate desire to fabricate reasons for conflict....and so I intellectually throw away all that behind the scenes crap and fixtate on the tactical, strategic and often heroic events ,once the combatants take the field...It is the leaders that push the human pins into the maps of their own ambitions, that are the criminals, not the pins themselves. This is not a jab, but past English colonial policy operated on these same principals of world domination. Unless I can separate the fact that Rommel was a Nazi versus his in-battle efforts, I would never be able to appreciate his tactics on the field of battle...just as I force myself, in reading about the Zulu War, to gloss over Frere and Chelmsford's role in instigating and fabricating the pretext for war and thus sealing the fate for some 3000 British and ally deaths as well as 10000 Zulus...Are they any less the Nazis of this conflict? There are also American " nazis" scattered throughout our history....And that is why I force myself to ignore the politicians and pay homage to the warriors...The politics of war are never worthy of the blood shed by those ,who never ask why, but do their duty...A friend of England..Michael

 

[Rob]

For all the deeds commited by the British in South Africa i think comparing them to the low life that wanted to rule Europe and kill all the Jewish people within is stretching it a bit.Rommel was a commited Nazi who happily excepted all the accolades heaped upon him and more than likely knew of the genocide commited by his beloved leader.Much is made of his attempts to convince Hitler to surrender following D Day.He could of course have resigned, he didn't.The blow to morale of his men would have been huge,possibly saving the lives of countless of my countrymen and that of America.

I say again as a military leader he was one of the the greatest ever,as a human being he was a piece of filth to be killed along with millions of other of his country who supported the most evil regime in history.

I do not want to be a Kill joy in anyway at all,but i do honestly think when i read comments about Rommel/Wittman and others that people really forget who these people were fighting for and how much they loved their leader.There are several people on this forum who have insulted Monty at every oppurtunity,but Monty was on OUR side fighting for freedom and peace against the scourge of the modern world,whatever his faults i'd fight for Monty over the Nazi scum anyday.

Rob

 

[Alex]

Our side...their side... History was always written by the country winning the war.. We are 60 years later... Germans were fighting for their country and for their perceived need of expanding their empire, to find some place where to be able to expand... I don't see in what this goal is so different from what the Israeli people are doing RIGHT NOW in 2008 in Palestine ??? In my book, Rommel was not anymore "Nazi" then the high command who send our troops (the canadians) to butchery at Dieppe... I can admire the tactical genius of any Rommel in this world even if I don't agree with the Nazi regime and what they did up to 1945.

My 2 cents,

Alex

 

[Rob]

Got to say from the Tone of your post i'm not sure what you agree with.'Our side their side' 'their 'side was the side trying to eradicate the Jewish people of the world,i think that seperates them from us.I'm thinking you may not have felt the same if they were 'looking for somewhere to expand' in your country.

So you are also comparing the people who organised raid on Dieppe to the Nazi's?.I don't think that for one second, and i don't believe most enlightened people do either. i do not honestly believe the high command sat there saying 'Oooh not much on tody, lets slaughter some of our boys for a laugh'

Rob

 

[Harrytheheid]

'Our side their side' 'their 'side was the side trying to eradicate the Jewish people of the world,i think that seperates them from us.I'm thinking you may not have felt the same if they were 'looking for somewhere to expand' in your country.


Rob

And the Poles, and the Slavs, and the Gypsies, and the mentally handicaped, in fact anyone who didn't fit in with their twisted Aryan Superman ideas.
The French, Norwegians, Danes, Belgians, Dutch, Greeks, Cretans and laterly the Italians didn't fare too well at the hands of the Nazis either.

H

 

[Rob]

And the Poles, and the Slavs, and the Gypsies, and the mentally handicaped, in fact anyone who didn't fit in with their twisted Aryan Superman ideas.
The French, Norwegians, Danes, Belgians, Dutch, Greeks, Cretans and laterly the Italians didn't fare too well at the hands of the Nazis either.

H

Harry

Yes absolutely Harry.These people who organised an industrial scale murder of all the people you listed,to compare them to Allied command who rid the world of the Nazi's is an insult.

Rob

 

[damian]

So you are also comparing the people who organised raid on Dieppe to the Nazi's?.I don't think that for one second, and i don't believe most enlightened people do either. i do not honestly believe the high command sat there saying 'Oooh not much on tody, lets slaughter some of our boys for a laugh'

Rob[/QUOTE]

I have to agree with Rob there. You can accuse the high command of being kak handed and out of touch with reality but I don't think you can accuse them of being Nazis.
Regards
Damian

 

[red devil]

One other tiny thing to remember about Rommel,one of the greatest Generals in History he may have been,was still a b**** Nazi!.I shed no tears over his death whatsoever.I only wish that Spitfire had found him long before it did.Lets remember if the Nazi scum had won the war Rommel would probably have been in charge of some poor occupied country. I think appreciation of military genius is one thing,hero worship of a commited Nazi is creepy.

Rob

I don't want to rain on your parade Rob but Rommel was never a member of the Nazi party and therefore not a committed Nazi, I would say however he was a very committed soldier though who believed in his country. He may have been promoted beyond his capabilities due to his exploits in NA but he was one of many Germans like Otto Carius (the greatest tank ace of WW2 IMO) who was also not a member of the Nazi Party but who fought to the best of their ability for their country. Rommel was a career soldier all his life and even if he had not agreed with the war theres no way his professional pride as a soldier would have let him leave the Heer. I think most of us here would have done the same whether we agree with the government in power or not. Theres probably plenty of our boys in Iraq and Afghanistan tonight who don't agree with the British government view that we should be there - but they are still there. Simply resigning if you do not agree with something was not a viable option in those days. Rommel may have been repsonsible for a lot of British deaths in NA be he was also merciful to a degree which could have cost him his life had he not been so popular with the High Command. Had he survived the war you could pretty much guarantee we would have welcomed him with open arms into the new West German Army. I don't want to glorify the Nazis but I think many of us would agree one man does not make a nation - below are some comments from Wikepdia which deserve airing:

" The Afrika Korps was never accused of any war crimes, and Rommel himself referred to the fighting in North Africa as Krieg ohne Hass—war without hate. Numerous examples exist of Rommel's chivalry towards Allied POWs, such as his defiance of Hitler's infamous Commando Order following the capture of Lt. Roy Woodridge and Lt. George Lane as part of Operation Fortitude, as well as his refusal to comply with an order from Hitler to execute Jewish POWs. Fritz Bayerlein, Rommel's friend and chief of staff in North Africa, was part-Jewish. During Rommel's time in France, Hitler ordered him to deport the Jews in France; Rommel disobeyed the order. Several times, he wrote letters protesting the treatment of the Jews. When British Major Geoffrey Keyes was killed during a failed Commando raid to kill or capture Rommel behind German lines, Rommel ordered him buried with full military honours. Also, during the construction of the Atlantic Wall, Rommel directed that French workers were not to be used as slaves, but were to be paid for their labour."

We won the war over 70 yrs ago so I think we can now give credit where it is due even if they were on the opposite side.

All the best for tonight
RD

 

[Alex]

Red Devil

I agree 1000% with your post.... I'm fed up of seeing every german soldiers treated as if he was a Nazi executing POWs, killing jews, raping women, etc...

Many countries have commited atrocities in times of war ot not including the US, Russia and the UK.. I wonder how many blacks were killed in good ol' USA just because they were black.. And this, very recently.. But this is out of topic..

 

[Capitolron]

Red Devil - Excellent Post !

Rommel's history as a commander was that of a Professional Soldier. Like RD said - he was not a member of the Nazi Party.

Rob - is very true that we are very fortunate to have defeated the Germans in WWII - due to the fact the Nazi Party controled Germany during that time.

Rommel was not responsible for the Holocast and to assert that is a little over the top. No questions the Holocast was horrible - but lets not break out the wide paint brush for all.

 

[OzDigger]

Red Devil

I agree 1000% with your post.... I'm fed up of seeing every german soldiers treated as if he was a Nazi executing POWs, killing jews, raping women, etc...

I agree, the National Socialist German Workers Party, (Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei), or Nazi Party was a political organization and membership was voluntary. Labeling all German soldiers as Nazi's is like saying that all United States soldiers in WWII were Republicans. Btw, I don't know much about American politics and chose that party as a random example rather than suggest that the Republican party is as extreme as the Nazi's ideals.

 

[Rob]

Red Devil

I agree 1000% with your post.... I'm fed up of seeing every german soldiers treated as if he was a Nazi executing POWs, killing jews, raping women, etc...

Many countries have commited atrocities in times of war ot not including the US, Russia and the UK.. I wonder how many blacks were killed in good ol' USA just because they were black.. And this, very recently.. But this is out of topic..

Your fed up with it are you, aaaaah shame.I imagine that the relatives of thousands of my countrymen killed during the Blitz by ordinary airmen representing Hitler were pretty fed up with it too.Count yourself fortunate that you didn't have relatives murdered from the sky.They all fought for and represented the most evil loathsome regime in History and were all scum in my book.RD even if Rommel wasn't in the Nazi party itself i'm thinking that as his last words were i believe 'I love Hitler' we can assume he was pretty commited to the cause.Of course when Rommel invaded France he was only 'Doing his Job' i'm sure that was a great comfort to all the people murdered in that country over the next few years.Give me strength.



Rob

 

[jazzeum]

I think there are merits in both sides of the discussion here and I emphasize discussion. However, this has also been discussed before, without resolution, and the war is over many many years and I'm sure we'll not resolve these issues again to anyone's satisfaction.

 

[Rob]

In my opinion Brad there are people on here with pretty warped Agenda's.We have people comparing Allied Command to the Nazi's we have people who simply (for whatever weird reason )cannot accept that Rommel was beaten by Monty,and we have people who are anti British.I for one will now leave this thread Brad as some of the posts sicken me.

Rob

 

[Capitolron]

Rob

I am sorry if my post has angered you. But, thats how I feel about the matter and see no wrong with my stand. If it causes you pain - that was not my intention and we should agree to disagree.

However, I do take issue with the statement that if someone states something as negative to the British - they are "ANTI-BRITISH" - that is not right and not fair to label people in that manner.

Americans are very well aware of the "war crimes" that - some - British Troops committed during the American Revolution - they happen and they are a part of our history. Speaking for me, I dont hold a grudge against the entire British population for those actions committed over 200 years ago. But, the fact is - some did those crimes and most did not - thats War.

In the case here of respecting Gen. Rommel - I think its not "hero" worshiping. I think we respect the man, his knowledge of warfare and how "HE BEHAVED" on the battlefield. Thats why I believe the AK Range is so popular.

We all collect figures from Armies who have done their share of bad things - even you collect WS figures correct? So lets focus on the toy soldiers and not the politics and appreciate our friendship as collectors of this funny little hobby we all have.

Cheers, Ron

 

[Harrytheheid]

Okay,
Getting back on thread, some of the earlier posts hit the nail on the head. The relative popularity of the Desert War is down to several reasons IMO;
The desert itself - mysterious, seemingly empty - but not.
O'Connor's brilliant campaign with the Western Desert Force.
The ebb and flow of the tides of war.
The forces of the Empire.
Wavell, Auckinleck, Alexander, Monty.
Irregular forces, LRDG, SAS.
Relative lack of civilian casualties.
The Italians who weren't quite as inept as popular conception would have it.
Mechanised warfare and the different AFV's deployed.
The Desert Airforce.
Free French and Vichy French.
Operation Torch.
Even what might be overlooked as sideshows - but had profound affects on the Desert War - Malta, Greece, Crete, East Africa.
Some excellent War movies and questionable American TV series (only kiddin' Ron....).
The nest of espionage that was Cairo, Tripoli, Benghazi.
The defence of Tobruk.
I think all of the above (and more) influence the popularity of NA in our minds and exercise the imagination whether we're playing with our EA and AK collections, or simply admiring our displays.
Cheers
H

 

[Currahee Chris]

In my opinion Brad there are people on here with pretty warped Agenda's.We have people comparing Allied Command to the Nazi's we have people who simply (for whatever weird reason )cannot accept that Rommel was beaten by Monty,and we have people who are anti British.I for one will now leave this thread Brad as some of the posts sicken me.

Rob

Hello Rob:

I am a bit confused here though I can certainly empathize with your discussion. I note that you started posting following on the heels of my post and discussion of my collecting priorities of the German forces. Here is my take on it for what it is worth.

I have NEVER in my life ever said anything negative about Monty and believe he was a competent field commander- one doesn't get to be a field comander of a major British ground force without having some measure of competence. I for one am very forgiving of "mistakes" made by field commanders- especially at that level of command. Those guys face make decisions on a level that no one here on this forum can begin to comprehend the stress and despair that they face knowing they are sending the flowers of their country to their deaths. We should all feel fortunate that we didn't have to make those kinds of decisions and then had to live with the scrutinies of countless generations of historians who present all sorts of "What if" scenarios decades after the last shots have been fired. In summary, I love the British military and have an immense respect for it- if at any time I have not clearly communicated that position than I offer my sincerest apologies.

I also have a wealth of respect for the Canadian, Australian and New Zealand units. Many of our American training regimen- especially in SERE and other types of survival training are based in doctrine we learned from Australian SAS members during WW2 in CBI and the Pacific.

BUT- Well, we adopted a lot of the German "nazi" military dogma as well- the M60 light machine gun- it's a derivative of the MG34. There were several adoptions of German Armor technology and fire and manuever and order of battle elements as well. Plus a lot of supply and logistic chains and models were adopted by us as well and continue to be used today. Many senior US Commanders who have passed through the Point and The Army War College here in Carlisle (which trains field commanders) examine in minute detail the campaigns of Rommel, Guderian and Kesselring. Many books, like Panzer Leader and the like are required or recommended readings for officers at various levels in their career. These guys must have done something pretty amazing given that these are all schools that are sponsored by the US government. After all, I don't know of any books written by Japanese ground forces commanders that are required readings at any of these schools (that may not be the case at Annapolis).

The question of "hero worship" or the like really needs to be answered by individual collectors. I myself am a fan of military history and can easily seperate a healthy respect of the military aspects of Nazi Germany versus the political warpness of their ideology. In fact, I fully believe that no one hates the Nazi dogma more than the Germans of today- it is an awful legacy that their ancestors left for them to live with.

Should I fail to study and appreciate Rome because they crucified Christ? Should I fail to study and appreciate the Colonial American government because they supported slavery? Again, each collector needs to reconcile their interest in each time period with a healthy regard for what is considered acceptable and honorable and ethical government practices. I believe you yourself mentioned what you "liked" about the Desert War earlier in this thread- should you yourself not "like" this theater- after all, if we follow your train of logic here then technically the German ground troops should be despised as well for the same reasons you give as Rommel- couldn' they have just refused to fight and get involved in the conflict too??

To summarize, I can appreciate your position. However, and I defiantely don't think it was your intent, I am not going to try and be lumped in as a Nazi supporter, which I am not- to do some would be tantamount to spitting on my grandfathers grave. I can appreciate your support of General Montgomery. I think he has really been misunderstood here in the States because he was a very headstrong commander who went toe to toe with our favorite commanders like Patton and Ike. I think it was his "Britishness" if you will, that may have earned him some ire here in the States. By Britishness I mean supreme confidence in his men, himself and his cause- all qualities any American can respect and admire.

Most respectfully yours Rob,
CC

 

[Rob]

Hello Rob:

I am a bit confused here though I can certainly empathize with your discussion. I note that you started posting following on the heels of my post and discussion of my collecting priorities of the German forces. Here is my take on it for what it is worth.

I have NEVER in my life ever said anything negative about Monty and believe he was a competent field commander- one doesn't get to be a field comander of a major British ground force without having some measure of competence. I for one am very forgiving of "mistakes" made by field commanders- especially at that level of command. Those guys face make decisions on a level that no one here on this forum can begin to comprehend the stress and despair that they face knowing they are sending the flowers of their country to their deaths. We should all feel fortunate that we didn't have to make those kinds of decisions and then had to live with the scrutinies of countless generations of historians who present all sorts of "What if" scenarios decades after the last shots have been fired. In summary, I love the British military and have an immense respect for it- if at any time I have not clearly communicated that position than I offer my sincerest apologies.

I also have a wealth of respect for the Canadian, Australian and New Zealand units. Many of our American training regimen- especially in SERE and other types of survival training are based in doctrine we learned from Australian SAS members during WW2 in CBI and the Pacific.

BUT- Well, we adopted a lot of the German "nazi" military dogma as well- the M60 light machine gun- it's a derivative of the MG34. There were several adoptions of German Armor technology and fire and manuever and order of battle elements as well. Plus a lot of supply and logistic chains and models were adopted by us as well and continue to be used today. Many senior US Commanders who have passed through the Point and The Army War College here in Carlisle (which trains field commanders) examine in minute detail the campaigns of Rommel, Guderian and Kesselring. Many books, like Panzer Leader and the like are required or recommended readings for officers at various levels in their career. These guys must have done something pretty amazing given that these are all schools that are sponsored by the US government. After all, I don't know of any books written by Japanese ground forces commanders that are required readings at any of these schools (that may not be the case at Annapolis).

The question of "hero worship" or the like really needs to be answered by individual collectors. I myself am a fan of military history and can easily seperate a healthy respect of the military aspects of Nazi Germany versus the political warpness of their ideology. In fact, I fully believe that no one hates the Nazi dogma more than the Germans of today- it is an awful legacy that their ancestors left for them to live with.

Should I fail to study and appreciate Rome because they crucified Christ? Should I fail to study and appreciate the Colonial American government because they supported slavery? Again, each collector needs to reconcile their interest in each time period with a healthy regard for what is considered acceptable and honorable and ethical government practices. I believe you yourself mentioned what you "liked" about the Desert War earlier in this thread- should you yourself not "like" this theater- after all, if we follow your train of logic here then technically the German ground troops should be despised as well for the same reasons you give as Rommel- couldn' they have just refused to fight and get involved in the conflict too??

To summarize, I can appreciate your position. However, and I defiantely don't think it was your intent, I am not going to try and be lumped in as a Nazi supporter, which I am not- to do some would be tantamount to spitting on my grandfathers grave. I can appreciate your support of General Montgomery. I think he has really been misunderstood here in the States because he was a very headstrong commander who went toe to toe with our favorite commanders like Patton and Ike. I think it was his "Britishness" if you will, that may have earned him some ire here in the States. By Britishness I mean supreme confidence in his men, himself and his cause- all qualities any American can respect and admire.

Most respectfully yours Rob,
CC

Chris mate please be assured not for one second was my post intended for you in anyway at all.I must confess my patroitism for my country and knowing the suffering my country went through in the Blitz often leads me to fly into a rant at the Nazi's in general.I have apologised both to Ron and Alex.I can of course appreciate that Rommel was one of the greatest of History's generals and also a fair man who did not commit atrocities.I just feel sometimes its forgotten that these people were the enemy.However once again i apologise to anyone who was upset by my comments.I think all our generals both Brits and Americans had faults and strengths,just like all humans.And just because i'm a fan of Monty it doesn't mean i can't appreciate what a brilliant Military leader Patton was.

I am and will be forever proud and grateful to every man from whatever country he came from who took up arms and helped defeat the Nazi's,it truly was a team effort.I also appreciate there is a huge difference between people like the SS who commited many atrocities and your average German soldier who was just following orders.As Ron pointed out to me today,as i take tours of the Imperial War museum i am probably a little sensitive and well versed in what my country went through in the second world War.This makes me a little cranky about the Nazi's,i'll try and tone it down!.

Sorry if you thought my words were aimed at you Chris,they truly weren't.

Best wishes

Rob

 

[Currahee Chris]

Best wishes Rob

Back at you bud!!

No offense taken here, trust me- you know, I never really fully realized the amount of criticism that Monty took till I got to be part of this forum (and, well to some extent I see it surface at the wargaming cons here in Central Pa). I never understood it and still really don't. I can fully admit that the level in which men like Ike, Monty et al made decisions paled in comparison to any level of decision making we make here on this board. I can fully appreciate that I am more than happy leaving those types of decisions to men like that. I can also fully appreciate that I am immensely overjoyed that I don't have historians or what not peering over my shoulder years after my death and questioning my decisions and leveling harsh criticisms against me. Could you imagine what life would be like if you or I had scores of people staring over our shoulders at our jobs?? I'd be too afraid to make any kind of decision at all.

But, as the saying goes, that's why they get paid the big bucks.

I really really believe that a lot of the ire that Monty received was in some measure a cultural misunderstanding or perhaps just some personality foibles of his that just rubbed against the allied high command from the US- we had commanders with big egos so I think the clash of these personality types spilled over into the press and subsequently biased, to some degree, the official record of the war. Monty seemed to be pretty no-nonsense and by the book and somewhat cold and aloof whereas guys like Patton were full of gusto- there was just bound to be a clash.

Either way, by all accounts I have read that Monty was very highly respected by his men and in my book, as far as command goes, there isn't a higher benchmark for command- I don't care what any historian says- if the men hold you in high regard, that's all that matters. That is far harder to do than it sounds.

The decision to purchase Nazi figures was a very hard one for me to make. I didn't buy any the first year or so I collected KC figures just because I felt like I was supporting that ideology. After thinking on it, my grandfather saw me as a young boy playing with plastic AK figures and all and he never raised any objections. I have learned over the years that the best collectors out there are the ones who can seperate the ideology from the militaria and appreciate it at that level.

This debate over Nazism was a problem even in 1945- you would think that these guys would just hate them but there was a lot of mutual respect (sure, there were well documented cases of atrocities but that occurred less than 1 percent of the time). Some of the division commanders found themselves in a lot of hot water after accepting the surrender of many Nazi commanders in Italy and later on as they would pose for pictures and such. General Maxwell Taylor discussed it pretty openly in Swords into Plowshares

Happily a fan of Monty and our British allies,
CC