96th Anniversary of Verdun (2 Viewers)

[Mitch]

Breslau...

Great pictures
Mitch

 

[lancer]

Sorry I'm so late to this thread. Computer went belly up a week ago and this one is borrowed. Verdun is the battle that I have studied the most, of any battle in any war. It is just the definition of WW1 and man's battle against technology and material. It holds a historical and morbid interest for me that I will never shake. If you have an interest in this battle, I suggest that you read "The Price of Glory: Verdun 1916" by Alistair Horne. I first read this fantastic account in the late 60's and have re-read it many, many times. It is a very well written book and just draws the reader into the battle. IMO, it is the best, single account available in English. Georges Blond's book "Verdun" is also very good. There are also two very good battlefield guide books done by Christina Holstein. These are "Walking Verdun: A Guide to the Battlefield" and "Fort Douaumont: Verdun". Both are in the Pen & Sword Battlefield guide series. There is a third title to cover Fort Vaux due to be published soon. There are, of course, many more titles, (especially in French, which I do not read), but Horne's book is the one to read if you just want one title. -- Al

 

[Rob]

Sorry I'm so late to this thread. Computer went belly up a week ago and this one is borrowed. Verdun is the battle that I have studied the most, of any battle in any war. It is just the definition of WW1 and man's battle against technology and material. It holds a historical and morbid interest for me that I will never shake. If you have an interest in this battle, I suggest that you read "The Price of Glory: Verdun 1916" by Alistair Horne. I first read this fantastic account in the late 60's and have re-read it many, many times. It is a very well written book and just draws the reader into the battle. IMO, it is the best, single account available in English. Georges Blond's book "Verdun" is also very good. There are also two very good battlefield guide books done by Christina Holstein. These are "Walking Verdun: A Guide to the Battlefield" and "Fort Douaumont: Verdun". Both are in the Pen & Sword Battlefield guide series. There is a third title to cover Fort Vaux due to be published soon. There are, of course, many more titles, (especially in French, which I do not read), but Horne's book is the one to read if you just want one title. -- Al

Fully agree Al, 'The Price of Glory' is THE Verdun book, excellent read and very well written. Its description of the effect of artillery barrages during the battle stick in my mind to this day. Truly excellent book about a truly horrendous battle.

Rob

 

[lancer]

Fully agree Al, 'The Price of Glory' is THE Verdun book, excellent read and very well written. Its description of the effect of artillery barrages during the battle stick in my mind to this day. Truly excellent book about a truly horrendous battle.

Rob

Rob, this book had a tremendous effect on me and it, along with the movie "All Quiet on the Western Front", turned me into a lifelong WW1 addict. The other really influential book that helped cement my interest was Martin Middlebrook's "First Day on the Somme", an absolutely superb book that I rank with Horne's book as the best military history I have ever read. They just overwhelm me with the courage, dedication, and sacrifice that was the hallmark of that generation of men, on all sides. -- Al

 

[Rob]

Rob, this book had a tremendous effect on me and it, along with the movie "All Quiet on the Western Front", turned me into a lifelong WW1 addict. The other really influential book that helped cement my interest was Martin Middlebrook's "Firsy Day on the Somme", an absolutely superb book that I rank with Horne's book as the best military history I have ever read. They just overwhelm me with the courage, dedication, and sacrifice that was the hallmark of that generation of men, on all sides. -- Al

Al, I saw you replying and I thought ' I wonder if Al will mention ' First day on the Somme '?!!^&grin Superb book, really top class. It moved me as few other books have, just terrific. One line that has always stuck with me is one that said something along the lines of how few people realise that many British soldiers that day met a lonely isolated death as they were hunted down in trenches they had managed to make it to, just feel such sadness for those guys.

Two other books that are also right up there but also feature first hand accounts from soldiers involved are two superb books from the wonderful Lynn Macdonald. ' Somme' is an excellent book and even better is 'They Called it Passchendaele'. Both highly recommended. (you've probably read them Al) 'They called it...' is another that gets over the horror,sacrifice and horrendous human suffering, hard to believe that after such events in such conditions we went to war again twenty odd years later, we never learn.

Always good to talk to you about WW1, sorry if I witter on a bit, its a subject that has moved me so much since the moment I first saw the Western front.

PS. You can imagine my delight when I saw those new Britains WW1 Somme Figs Al :wink2:^&cool^&cool^&cool{bravo}}

Rob

 

[lancer]

Al, I saw you replying and I thought ' I wonder if Al will mention ' First day on the Somme '?!!^&grin Superb book, really top class. It moved me as few other books have, just terrific. One line that has always stuck with me is one that said something along the lines of how few people realise that many British soldiers that day met a lonely isolated death as they were hunted down in trenches they had managed to make it to, just feel such sadness for those guys.

Two other books that are also right up there but also feature first hand accounts from soldiers involved are two superb books from the wonderful Lynn Macdonald. ' Somme' is an excellent book and even better is 'They Called it Passchendaele'. Both highly recommended. (you've probably read them Al) 'They called it...' is another that gets over the horror,sacrifice and horrendous human suffering, hard to believe that after such events in such conditions we went to war again twenty odd years later, we never learn.

Always good to talk to you about WW1, sorry if I witter on a bit, its a subject that has moved me so much since the moment I first saw the Western front.

PS. You can imagine my delight when I saw those new Britains WW1 Somme Figs Al :wink2:^&cool^&cool^&cool{bravo}}

Rob

Rob, didn't mention Macdonalds outstanding books because my interest was cemented long before they were published. But you are quite right. All her works are unbeatable. I enjoyed everyone of them, and when I broke up and sold my book collection, her book on the Somme was one of the keepers that still sit on my shelf. The new Somme figures by Britains look first rate, as all of the WW1 figures Britains has done, are. I have all the early Mons figures, British French, and German, with the exception of the British and German cavalry which I just couldn't afford at the time and missed out on. As to our interest in WW1, I could spend the rest of my life reading nothing but WW1 related works, and often do. Far and away the most interesting of wars to me. :wink2: -- Al

 

[Rob]

Rob, didn't mention Macdonalds outstanding books because my interest was cemented long before they were published. But you are quite right. All her works are unbeatable. I enjoyed everyone of them, and when I broke up and sold my book collection, her book on the Somme was one of the keepers that still sit on my shelf. The new Somme figures by Britains look first rate, as all of the WW1 figures Britains has done, are. I have all the early Mons figures, British French, and German, with the exception of the British and German cavalry which I just couldn't afford at the time and missed out on. As to our interest in WW1, I could spend the rest of my life reading nothing but WW1 related works, and often do. Far and away the most interesting of wars to me. :wink2: -- Al

It really is isn't it Al, it grabs your emotion in a way thats not only hard to describe but also sticks with you from that moment on. Something about the Horror,the slaughter the pity of it all and just how much fighting men can endure and still come out the other side. Its also very very sad that every single one of those young men who went off to fight that terrible war is now gone. How on earth after the war they dealt with what they'd seen I'll never know, many many walked the streets at night for years after I understand .

Lyn Macdonald is a gem isn't she, I too have all her books but it doesn't look like we'll get another now does it, been a long time since her last.

Funny how you have ' soundtracks' to certain events in your life. I remember my first visit to the Western front with my school on a coach trip in 1979. The driver obviously loved Supertramp because he played ' Breakfast in America' almost non stop, as we pulled up outside Tyne Cot cemetery near Passchendaele ' Logical song ' was playing, to this day that song evokes for me the terribly sad sight of rows and rows of those white gravestones like soldiers on parade.

Rob

 

[waynepoo]

Rob /Al,
Have been following your interesting conversation and I have to second your remarks about Lyn Macdonald, I have just finished reading her book ''1915 The Death of Innocence''. The title of course says it all, Neuve Chapelle, First Ypres, Loos, and Gallipoli. As an Australian we have been brought up on the legend of the ANZACS, with her telling of British part of the Gallipoli battle it shed new light on something that I was only vaguely aware of. I normally take a book to bed to help nod off but I found myself fighting sleep as it was such a good read.
Wayne.

 

[Rob]

Well said Wayne, that's another cracking book from her. All her books were so enthralling in my view even her last release ' To the Last Man' was another really good read . Had the pleasure meeting Lyn and she kindly signed that one for me.

Rob

Rob /Al,
Have been following your interesting conversation and I have to second your remarks about Lyn Macdonald, I have just finished reading her book ''1915 The Death of Innocence''. The title of course says it all, Neuve Chapelle, First Ypres, Loos, and Gallipoli. As an Australian we have been brought up on the legend of the ANZACS, with her telling of British part of the Gallipoli battle it shed new light on something that I was only vaguely aware of. I normally take a book to bed to help nod off but I found myself fighting sleep as it was such a good read.
Wayne.

 

[lancer]

Rob /Al,
Have been following your interesting conversation and I have to second your remarks about Lyn Macdonald, I have just finished reading her book ''1915 The Death of Innocence''. The title of course says it all, Neuve Chapelle, First Ypres, Loos, and Gallipoli. As an Australian we have been brought up on the legend of the ANZACS, with her telling of British part of the Gallipoli battle it shed new light on something that I was only vaguely aware of. I normally take a book to bed to help nod off but I found myself fighting sleep as it was such a good read.
Wayne.

All her work is well worth the read. I am partial to her "1914" and "The Roses of No Mans Land", as well as "1915" and Somme books. Wayne, have you the After The Battle book on Gallipoli? It is a brilliant book, as well. It gives the reader a real sense of the campaign and the all important terrain. The ATB series are some of my favorites, and I am waiting and hoping that Verdun is given the ATB treatment. It would be a fascinating and important addition. -- Al

 

[Dragoon]

This is a great thread. Really enjoyed reading this last page with the conversation between Rob and Al.
Some of their comments remind me of the feeling I get every Chirstmas when they air a couple of shows on the Christmas Truce of 1914. It's always so sad, that brief glimmer of hope and humanity in a time of such horrible folly, and the thought of what might have been. - Ken

 

[Scott]

I took a post card tour of Verdun using ...

http://postcards.delcampe.net/page/category/cat,-2,var,Postcards,language,E.html

search the words: "Douaumont"

"Tranchée des Baïonnettes"

There are a few photos of the trench before the monument was built over it.

"Ossuaire de Douaumont"

Some views from the air.

 

[lancer]

One of the things that I find fascinating about Verdun is the terrain and fortifications that were instumental in the battle. As Scott has posted, there are many sites that allow a picture to be formed of the battleground. It is especially interesting to me to study the forts, in a before, during, and after mode. To watch the "melting away" of the different forts stuctures under the heavy and almost continuous shell fire (from both sides), is to watch a hideous sort of metamorphisis. The forts as they exsist today, (and I am speaking of the forts that were directly involved in the fighting), are mear shells of what they were prior to the battle. What were very defined lines, defined walls, moats, strong points, are now reduced to a shadow form, an outline of what once was. To compare before and after shots is just a shocking experience. The same is true of the various terrain features that today are still pockmarked with shell holes that make finding level ground in some areas impossible. Hills like Mort Homme were so defaced as to lose many meters off their former height. Many of these features can be tracked down in picture form off the many various sites on the internet or thru books but there is currently no good overall photo study in English (that I am aware of), that pulls all the battlefield together in one place. There are some battlefield guide books that make a good start but Verdun deserves the "After the Battle" treatment that this publication is so good at. It would be a daunting task, what with the current condition of the battlefield, but such a study needs to be done. -- Al

 

[Rob]

This is a great thread. Really enjoyed reading this last page with the conversation between Rob and Al.
Some of their comments remind me of the feeling I get every Chirstmas when they air a couple of shows on the Christmas Truce of 1914. It's always so sad, that brief glimmer of hope and humanity in a time of such horrible folly, and the thought of what might have been. - Ken

Ken, I couldn't agree more. This is a great thread about a fascinating subject, its been great to read all your comments so far.

One of the things that I find fascinating about Verdun is the terrain and fortifications that were instumental in the battle. As Scott has posted, there are many sites that allow a picture to be formed of the battleground. It is especially interesting to me to study the forts, in a before, during, and after mode. To watch the "melting away" of the different forts stuctures under the heavy and almost continuous shell fire (from both sides), is to watch a hideous sort of metamorphisis. The forts as they exsist today, (and I am speaking of the forts that were directly involved in the fighting), are mear shells of what they were prior to the battle. What were very defined lines, defined walls, moats, strong points, are now reduced to a shadow form, an outline of what once was. To compare before and after shots is just a shocking experience. The same is true of the various terrain features that today are still pockmarked with shell holes that make finding level ground in some areas impossible. Hills like Mort Homme were so defaced as to lose many meters off their former height. Many of these features can be tracked down in picture form off the many various sites on the internet or thru books but there is currently no good overall photo study in English (that I am aware of), that pulls all the battlefield together in one place. There are some battlefield guide books that make a good start but Verdun deserves the "After the Battle" treatment that this publication is so good at. It would be a daunting task, what with the current condition of the battlefield, but such a study needs to be done. -- Al

I second that, Verdun is well overdue the 'After the Battle' treatment. I'd also like to like to see Major and Mrs Holts produce one of their guide books just for Verdun, they have a large section on the Battle in their ' Western front-South' guide book which is very good, but this battle could fill a book on its own. I now own all the WW1/WW2 Holts guides and can't recommend them enough. They come with an excellent colour coded map that shows all memorials, cemeteries, pillboxes/bunkers,trenches, VC sites etc etc. Have worn out my Somme and Ypres Salient versions over the years and always buy the updated reprints. Thats the thing with the Western Front , everytime you go back there is a new museum, memorial , trench system to see- even more so in the run up to the 100th anniversay in 2014. Whether you are going to visit or just want to get an armchair idea of the layout of the battle in question, grab a Holts guide my friends, they really are good.

Not sure if you guys have heard but there is a big dig going on at La Boiselle (near Lochnagar Crater) on the Somme . Its going to take years and they are unearthing a large British Trench network called 'The Glory Hole' . They are asking for volunteers to help, my wonderful wife has offered to take time off work just so she can drive me over there, I really am a very very lucky chap:redface2:

Rob

 

[lancer]

Ken, I couldn't agree more. This is a great thread about a fascinating subject, its been great to read all your comments so far.



I second that, Verdun is well overdue the 'After the Battle' treatment. I'd also like to like to see Major and Mrs Holts produce one of their guide books just for Verdun, they have a large section on the Battle in their ' Western front-South' guide book which is very good, but this battle could fill a book on its own. I now own all the WW1/WW2 Holts guides and can't recommend them enough. They come with an excellent colour coded map that shows all memorials, cemeteries, pillboxes/bunkers,trenches, VC sites etc etc. Have worn out my Somme and Ypres Salient versions over the years and always buy the updated reprints. Thats the thing with the Western Front , everytime you go back there is a new museum, memorial , trench system to see- even more so in the run up to the 100th anniversay in 2014. Whether you are going to visit or just want to get an armchair idea of the layout of the battle in question, grab a Holts guide my friends, they really are good.

Not sure if you guys have heard but there is a big dig going on at La Boiselle (near Lochnagar Crater) on the Somme . Its going to take years and they are unearthing a large British Trench network called 'The Glory Hole' . They are asking for volunteers to help, my wonderful wife has offered to take time off work just so she can drive me over there, I really am a very very lucky chap:redface2:

Rob

The Holt books are fantastic. I currently only have the ones on the Somme and Gallipoli (which is really superb). Haven't heard of the 'Glory Hole' dig but I bet it yields some real interesting things. A photo tour of Verdun will be a real challenge because of all the post-war trees that were planted and now hide the original sightlines and the exsisting battle damage, but it still should be done. If nothing else is done, a thorough job of Douaumont, Vaux, and Souville should be attempted. -- Al

 

[Rob]

Al, if you get chance get these two, they are wonderful guides;

http://www.guide-books.co.uk/western-front-south.html

http://www.guide-books.co.uk/western-front.html

Rob

 

[Rob]

Oh blimey, while I was there I just spotted this new version too !

http://www.guide-books.co.uk/ypres-leper.html

Rob

 

[lancer]

Al, if you get chance get these two, they are wonderful guides;

http://www.guide-books.co.uk/western-front-south.html

http://www.guide-books.co.uk/western-front.html

Rob

Thanks for the info, Rob. I'll add these to my list. Wasn't aware of them.:redface2: As a matter of fact, my Holt 'Somme' guide is the 1996 edition, and the 'Gallipoli' is from 2000. Do you know if these have been updated? I would guess that the Somme one has been but I don't know. -- Al

 

[Rob]

Thanks for the info, Rob. I'll add these to my list. Wasn't aware of them.:redface2: As a matter of fact, my Holt 'Somme' guide is the 1996 edition, and the 'Gallipoli' is from 2000. Do you know if these have been updated? I would guess that the Somme one has been but I don't know. -- Al

You're welcome Al, yes the Somme has been updated now in its sixth edition but I think the Gallipoli has just had one so far. The new Ypre version and also the new D Day version come with more info and GPS references. Check out the site Al;

http://www.guide-books.co.uk/

Rob

 

[lancer]

You're welcome Al, yes the Somme has been updated now in its sixth edition but I think the Gallipoli has just had one so far. The new Ypre version and also the new D Day version come with more info and GPS references. Check out the site Al;

http://www.guide-books.co.uk/

Rob

Thanks, Rob. Looks like I've got some updating to do.^&grin -- Al