American Civil War trivia question (1 Viewer)

[Rob]

Guys I wonder if I can put a trivia question to you regarding the legend that is Mr Stonewall Jackson.Have I been eating too many Opal fruits again or did I read that there was some confusion and disagreement about the origins of the great mans nickname?.I could swear that I read that some thought his name was not a compliment as in 'There stands Jackson like a stonewall' but was a criticism of him in that he was stubborn and not maneuvering as required.I wonder if any of you had heard this or could shed any light?.

Rob

 

[UKReb]

Guys I wonder if I can put a trivia question to you regarding the legend that is Mr Stonewall Jackson.Have I been eating too many Opal fruits again or did I read that there was some confusion and disagreement about the origins of the great mans nickname?.I could swear that I read that some thought his name was not a compliment as in 'There stands Jackson like a stonewall' but was a criticism of him in that he was stubborn and not maneuvering as required.I wonder if any of you had heard this or could shed any light?.

Rob

Good question Rob with no definitive answer as the general who made the "stone wall" quote was mortally wounded shortly after uttering it at the Battle of First Manassas (First Bull Run) and although ensuring immortality for Jackson he also left everlasting controversy. Manassas was the first big battle of the war and was an unholy mess with raw recruits on both sides and generals who had no experience of leading large armies into the field.

Confederate Brig Gen. Barnard E Bee was one of Johnston's three brigade commanders that day the others being Bartow and Jackson. During the battle Bartow's command collapsed and were retreating from the field while Bee's 4th Alabama fought like veterans but were being overwhelmed by McDowell's federal troops.

Meanwhile Jackson's brigade had arrived on Henry Hill and did not immediately join in the fight. Instead Jackson ordered his Virginians to lie down just below the crest even as Bee's brigade began to fall back. Bee noticing the men on the hill spurred his horse to ask who they were, one of the infantryman pointed to Jackson calmly sitting on his horse. Bee called to Jackson that the enemy were beating him back.
"Very well General" replied Jackson
"But how do you expect to stop them?"
"We'll give them the bayonet" was Jackson's curt reply

Bee rode back to his troops who were now at the point of collapse and rout, and apparently made his famous quote calling to his troops and pointing to Jackson. The exact wording of Bee's "Stone Wall" exclamation varies from source to source, the chaos of the battle obscuring forever what was actually said or heard. Nevertheless the Alabamian's rallied and Jackson's stand allowed more time for Confederate forces to arrive and win the day.

Word of Jackson's exploits quickly spread among the Confederates as did Bee's stone wall remark, and Jackson and his brigade soon had an immortal nick-name. But was Bee calling Jackson a coward or a staunch warrior when he yelled that the Virginians were standing "as a stone wall"?.

Bee did not live to explain, dying the following morning and your answer Rob unfortunately lies with him.

Reb

 

[Phantom Warrior]

Guys I wonder if I can put a trivia question to you regarding the legend that is Mr Stonewall Jackson.Have I been eating too many Opal fruits again or did I read that there was some confusion and disagreement about the origins of the great mans nickname?.I could swear that I read that some thought his name was not a compliment as in 'There stands Jackson like a stonewall' but was a criticism of him in that he was stubborn and not maneuvering as required.I wonder if any of you had heard this or could shed any light?.

Rob

I had never heard that. Only that the nickname came from holding positions against Union attacks which stabilized the Confederate positions and prevented wholesale defeats. As for manouvering, he was one of the better generals at manouvering and rapidly marching his troops.

 

[trooper]

Guys I wonder if I can put a trivia question to you regarding the legend that is Mr Stonewall Jackson.Have I been eating too many Opal fruits again or did I read that there was some confusion and disagreement about the origins of the great mans nickname?.I could swear that I read that some thought his name was not a compliment as in 'There stands Jackson like a stonewall' but was a criticism of him in that he was stubborn and not maneuvering as required.I wonder if any of you had heard this or could shed any light?.

Rob

Like you, Rob, I can recall reading this somewhere but for the life of me cannot recollect where. I have an idea it was either in one of the "trivia" books about the Civil War or alternatively as a sidebar in a magazine.

 

[DCN1898]

I have heard the same account regarding General Bee and can only surmise, that at the time, if you happened to be a supporter or detractor of General Jackson, determined which version was believed.

 

[UKReb]

I have heard the same account regarding General Bee and can only surmise, that at the time, if you happened to be a supporter or detractor of General Jackson, determined which version was believed.

I think you will find it has a little more depth than that as the controversy lies with the, then, (Afterall this was the first large scale battle fought on American soil since the revolution) unorthodox way Jackson commanded his brigade during that stage of the battle.

 

[Phantom Warrior]

It's hard to imagine General Bee pointing to Jackson and saying there he stands like a stone wall to rally his troops meaning it in a derogatory way?

Terry

 

[UKReb]

It's hard to imagine General Bee pointing to Jackson and saying there he stands like a stone wall to rally his troops meaning it in a derogatory way?

Terry

Well not wanting to labour the point but that's really what the controversy is all about. As a number of Bee's officers agreed in their post battle reports that Bee was criticizing Jackson for his inaction. In other words that with their brigade being hard pressed Jackson refused to move to their relief and in a passionate expression of anger he (Bee) denounced him for standing like a stone wall and allowing them to be sacrificed.

As my answer to Rob states no-one will ever know the truth of the remark

Reb

 

[Combat]

The comment represents either Bee's frustration with Jackson not moving to assist him or is an attempt to reassure his own troops that they have support when they fall back. Or even both. They are not mutually exclusive interpretations in my opinion. He may have been frustrated with Jackson, but recognized plan B was to move his own troops back without inducing a panic.

I seem to recall that the owner of the home in Appomattox where Grant and Lee meet to sign the surrender had moved there from Henry Hill after the Manassas battle. Apparently they wanted to get away from the war. A remarkable coincidence bookending the start and end of the war in Virginia. The American History Museum in DC had the desk upon which the surrender was signed on display a few years ago. Not sure if it is still there, but it is an interesting piece of history.

 

[Rob]

Thanks for that excellent explanation Bob,I guess we will never know but I was sure I'd read it somewhere.It would be quite something if one of the most famous warriors in history got his name as a result of an insult.

Rob

 

[Scott]

Rob,

I don't think anything about the American Civil War is "trivia", as this makes it sound "trivial." It's just the next topic for a discussion, friendly or otherwise.

I have looked at the subject of Jackson's nick-name and feel that a stone wall is a good thing whereas Bee could have said "mud fence", "brick outhouse", "pile of horse apples" if he was insulting Jackson.


Trivia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trivia

"The term trivia (singular trivium, adjective trivial) refers to the three lower Liberal Arts, i.e. grammar, rhetoric and logic. These were the topics of basic education, foundational to the quadrivia of higher education, and hence the term by extension came to refer to material of basic education, of interest only to undergraduates.

Beginning in the 1960s, the plural trivia in particular became used for knowledge that is nice to have but not essential, specifically detailed knowledge on topics of popular culture. From this usage, the expression came to apply more to information of the kind useful almost exclusively for answering quiz questions, whence also the brand name Trivial Pursuit (1982)."

 

[Rob]

Rob,

I don't think anything about the American Civil War is "trivia." It's just the next topic for a discussion, friendly or otherwise.

Yes sorry,I didn't really mean trivia,I should just have said ACW Question.

Rob

 

[Scott]

"KEEP CALM AND CARRY ON"

Good advice.


I understand where you're coming from. The are a lot of CW Trivia, "Civil War for Dummies", "Idiot's Guide to the CW", and "Don't know much about the Civil War" books out there so the term TRIVIA is what first comes to mind.

I tried to talk to a Southerner about the ironclad Merrimack and insisted we call it the CSS Virginia.

As for Jackson, you know that his students at VMI called him "Tom Fool" so you can see that the War was at least good for his legacy.

 

[VanguardFC007]

Something interesting about the War Between the States that Ive noticed more about it than any other war, pre-existing opinions of general level officers changed drastically.

There were those that were thought very highly of in the peace time army and when the bullets started flying were worthless. And on the opposite end there were those who were failures or not well thought of before the war but became great generals. Then there were those who always had a high reputation and maintained it or became legends.

 

[UKReb]

Thanks for that excellent explanation Bob,I guess we will never know but I was sure I'd read it somewhere.It would be quite something if one of the most famous warriors in history got his name as a result of an insult.

Rob

Rob

You're welcome and your question has always raised hackles amongst students of the war all with varying opinions as you have seen on here from other posters. Fact is that Jackson's legendary war record has snuffed out whether Bee's comment was derogatory or not- also no-one knows exactly the words he did state except "a stone wall" as there are to my knowledge at least fifteen variations of the complete quote.

Confederate Colonel John C Haskell-whose name continually arises in all well researched civil war documentaries due no doubt to his skill of articulating the war through his diary wrote soon after Bull Run that Maj Thomas Rhett, who was Johnston's chief of staff, and James Hill, Bee's aide-de-camp agreed that Bee was criticizing Jackson for just sitting on the hill. Rhett who was a West Point classmate of both Bee and Jackson, was with Bee from shortly after he was shot until the general died. Hill was with Bee when he fell on the battlefield and travelled with him in the ambulance back to his cabin. Based on Haskell's account, Rhett and Hill said Bee on his deathbed was still angered by Jackson's conduct.

I can neither agree with or debunk that statement because I wasn't there However, what we do know is that Jackson's stand anchored the Confederate line at Henry Hill with his brigade and the remnants of Bee and Bartow's brigades, and the time bought by Jackson allowed more time for reinforcements from Johnston's army to arrive by train and help shift the battle tide by late afternoon. McDowell's federal force which had victory within their grasp just a few hours earlier, fled in rout and the Rebs had won the first major clash of the war.

Controversial? maybe. Fascinating? You betcha! one of the many reasons why this war has grabbed my attention for more years than I care to admit.

Reb

 

[6th Wisconsin]

Bee did not live to explain, dying the following morning and your answer Rob unfortunately lies with him.
Reb

And perhaps the only reason it was taken the way it was in the end resulted from the positive outcome of the battle for Jackson's men and the Confederate army.

 

[wds0855]

Weren't Jackson's men referred to later as "The Stonewall Brigade"?
I don't think the entire regiment would have been referred to as this, if it were meant in a negative context.

Walt

 

[DCN1898]

Whatever the origin of the label. The name became one of honor and great reputation.

 

[6th Wisconsin]

Weren't Jackson's men referred to later as "The Stonewall Brigade"?
I don't think the entire regiment would have been referred to as this, if it were meant in a negative context.

Walt

It was taken in a positive context later, but it may or may not have been meant that way when it was first used by Bee. Jackson's importance in helping win the battle gave him and his unit a positive reputation regardless of how the first use of "stonewall" may have been intended.

 

[trooper]

Interesting to note that Jackson had a cousin whose reputation fell short of that attached to Jackson himself and who was consequently nicknamed "Mudwall" by his men.