American Civil War what if? (1 Viewer)

[Rob]

Guys, as my friends may know my main areas of military and historical interest are WW1 and WW2. But I have a 'Historical mistress' as it were^&grin which of course is the ACW. Epic, sweeping, brutal, horrific and with a huge amount at stake this conflict is totally fascinating. Now we all like a ' What if '. What if the Luftwaffe had not switched to bombing London? What if Custer had taken Gatling Guns? What if Donald Duck was in charge on the Somme instead of Haig ?? (little dig at myself there for Bob and Louis^&grin:wink2

So here is my what if . What if Col Strong Vincent had been there ten minutes later and the Alabamians had beaten him to the top of Little Round Top? Is it a definite forgone conclusion that the Rebs would have simply rolled up the Union line and won the day at Gettysburg? Or would it not have been as easy as some feel? Also, if they had won at Gettysburg would the Rebs have then marched straight to Washington and brought the War to an end???

I know there are many experts on the ACW here on the forum and would really be interested in your opinion.

Cheers

Rob

 

[Scott]

Sinced the war didn't end when Richmond was evacuated, it took the surrender of the two last armies and the capture of Davis to achieve that. I don't think Lincoln would have let himselve be caught and a train or steamer gets him north, plus there were plenty of intact Union armie groups still in the field along with the victorious troops at Vickburg. Grant would have been able to wind that up and support the AOP. If Fort Sumter made the loyal citizens mad, try taking Washington.

It's a romantic daydream acording to Faulkner.

 

[Warrior]

Rob,
Interesting question; had Vincent not arrived to support Warren on Little Round Top, not sure if the Confederates could have rolled up the entire Union left flank as Barnes still had a lot of troops in the area and perhaps they could have made a stand at the Weikert Farm; the real concern would have been if Benning had hit that position at the same time Robertson and Kershaw hit Houck's Ridge, the Rose Woods, the Wheatfield and the Peach Orchard, then perhaps the entire left flank would have collapsed.

If the Confederates has won at Gettysburg, not sure if they could have simply then marched on and taken Washington as win or lose, the Confederate army took a pounding at Gettysburg, not sure if they would have had the manpower left to do it.

As it was, after Gettysburg, both armies in the East licked their wounds for close to 10 months before fighting resumed.


And Lincoln simply was not going to allow the United States to be fractured into two countries, the war would have gone on even if the south had won at Gettysburg............

 

[Rob]

Very interesting George , good to get your thoughts. People put a lot of importance to Little Round Top and obviously it was a vital position being at the end of the line as it was. However I often wonder if just because it may have fallen , does that mean the Union army would really have collapsed as some suggest. As Heroic and as brave as the defence and then charge by the 20th Maine undoubtedly was, was it really a turning point in the ACW? You also raise a point that I've also thought about and that is the fact that the two armies were going hammer and tong at each other and would Lee's army really be fit to go on to Washington defeating all in its path on the way, he would also of course have huge amount of wounded to deal with and maybe supply issues. I raised this question as so often I see the emphasis on what is described as an almost war winning moment atop the Little round Top, and I was interested to see if it was as cut and dried as some think.

Cheers

Rob

Rob,
Interesting question; had Vincent not arrived to support Warren on Little Round Top, not sure if the Confederates could have rolled up the entire Union left flank as Barnes still had a lot of troops in the area and perhaps they could have made a stand at the Weikert Farm; the real concern would have been if Benning had hit that position at the same time Robertson and Kershaw hit Houck's Ridge, the Rose Woods, the Wheatfield and the Peach Orchard, then perhaps the entire left flank would have collapsed.

If the Confederates has won at Gettysburg, not sure if they could have simply then marched on and taken Washington as win or lose, the Confederate army took a pounding at Gettysburg, not sure if they would have had the manpower left to do it.

As it was, after Gettysburg, both armies in the East licked their wounds for close to 10 months before fighting resumed.


And Lincoln simply was not going to allow the United States to be fractured into two countries, the war would have gone on even if the south had won at Gettysburg............

 

[Warrior]

As Heroic and as brave as the defence and then charge by the 20th Maine undoubtedly was, was it really a turning point in the ACW? You also raise a point that I've also thought about and that is the fact that the two armies were going hammer and tong at each other and would Lee's army really be fit to go on to Washington defeating all in its path on the way, he would also of course have huge amount of wounded to deal with and maybe supply issues. I raised this question as so often I see the emphasis on what is described as an almost war winning moment atop the Little round Top, and I was interested to see if it was as cut and dried as some think.

Cheers

Rob

Rob,
Prior to the movie "Gettysburg" coming out, I wonder how many ACW novices in this country even knew who the 20th Maine was..............:rolleyes2:.................they make a big production out of the 20th Maine monument at the battlefield today, that is for sure, the 20th Maine were positioned on the far left of the Union line down the slope from Little Round Top, pretty interesting to see where they were compared to the rest of the troops in that area.

I think as important as their role was during the battle, it's been hyped up a bit as well............the entire battle is fascinating, all the woulda, coulda, shoulda, what if this happened, what if that happened, etc, etc is incredible, the park is a national treasure here in the US of A.............

 

[Louis Badolato]

Rob,
Interesting question; had Vincent not arrived to support Warren on Little Round Top, not sure if the Confederates could have rolled up the entire Union left flank as Barnes still had a lot of troops in the area and perhaps they could have made a stand at the Weikert Farm; the real concern would have been if Benning had hit that position at the same time Robertson and Kershaw hit Houck's Ridge, the Rose Woods, the Wheatfield and the Peach Orchard, then perhaps the entire left flank would have collapsed.

If the Confederates has won at Gettysburg, not sure if they could have simply then marched on and taken Washington as win or lose, the Confederate army took a pounding at Gettysburg, not sure if they would have had the manpower left to do it.

As it was, after Gettysburg, both armies in the East licked their wounds for close to 10 months before fighting resumed.


And Lincoln simply was not going to allow the United States to be fractured into two countries, the war would have gone on even if the south had won at Gettysburg............

MIlitarily I completely defer to George, who knows far more than I about the Battle of Gettysburg. However, had the Union flank collapsed and the confederates won the battle of Gettysburg, I think the war would have been over, as would the Union. Had Lee's forces been able to lay siege to Washington, even briefly, it would have been as devastating to Lincoln's chances of re-election in the campaign against former General McClellan as the victory at Gettysburg and the fall of Vicksburg was to McClellan's chances of winning the election. Had McClellan, a coward and incompetent leader, been elected, I believe he would have sued for peace and recognized the Confederacy.

 

[jazzeum]

MIlitarily I completely defer to George, who knows far more than I about the Battle of Gettysburg. However, had the Union flank collapsed and the confederates won the battle of Gettysburg, I think the war would have been over, as would the Union. Had Lee's forces been able to lay siege to Washington, even briefly, it would have been as devastating to Lincoln's chances of re-election in the campaign against former General McClellan as the victory at Gettysburg and the fall of Vicksburg was to McClellan's chances of winning the election. Had McClellan, a coward and incompetent leader, been elected, I believe he would have sued for peace and recognized the Confederacy.

Those are suppositions that cannot be made. The fall of Vicksburg and the victory at Gettysburg had nothing to do with the election of 1864, a year after those two battles. What ultimately tipped the election in Lincoln's favor was the fall of Atlanta, not to mention time was possibly against the Confederacy because of the losses in the South. However, Atlanta definitely swung the election for the Republicans.

As far as the Union, I assume you mean the United States of America as a concept, not the North, since it was not Lee's or Davis' objective to conquer the North but to have the North let the South go in peace.

Regarding McClellan, yes, it is accepted wisdom to revile him but he made the Army of the Potomac into an effective fighting force and he was a brilliant organizer; his defect was that he cared for his men and had a case of the "slows." However, he gave Lincoln the victory he needed at Antietam to be able to announce the Emancipation Proclamation. You may want to take a look at this post in Crossroads from Professor Brooks Simpson regarding McClellan, Give George B. McClellan a Break.

Brad

 

[Rob]

Rob,
Prior to the movie "Gettysburg" coming out, I wonder how many ACW novices in this country even knew who the 20th Maine was..............:rolleyes2:.................they make a big production out of the 20th Maine monument at the battlefield today, that is for sure, the 20th Maine were positioned on the far left of the Union line down the slope from Little Round Top, pretty interesting to see where they were compared to the rest of the troops in that area.

I think as important as their role was during the battle, it's been hyped up a bit as well............the entire battle is fascinating, all the woulda, coulda, shoulda, what if this happened, what if that happened, etc, etc is incredible, the park is a national treasure here in the US of A.............

George, do you mean that as they were positioned further down the slope as opposed to at the top they were involved less in the defence before they made their now famous charge? I very much understand what you mean about the film, it was the same over here, before ' Zulu ' few had even heard of Rorkes Drift.

Those are suppositions that cannot be made. The fall of Vicksburg and the victory at Gettysburg had nothing to do with the election of 1864, a year after those two battles. What ultimately tipped the election in Lincoln's favor was the fall of Atlanta, not to mention time was possibly against the Confederacy because of the losses in the South. However, Atlanta definitely swung the election for the Republicans.

As far as the Union, I assume you mean the United States of America as a concept, not the North, since it was not Lee's or Davis' objective to conquer the North but to have the North let the South go in peace.

Regarding McClellan, yes, it is accepted wisdom to revile him but he made the Army of the Potomac into an effective fighting force and he was a brilliant organizer; his defect was that he cared for his men and had a case of the "slows." However, he gave Lincoln the victory he needed at Antietam to be able to announce the Emancipation Proclamation. You may want to take a look at this post in Crossroads from Professor Brooks Simpson regarding McClellan, Give George B. McClellan a Break.

Brad

Brad, what do you think to the suggestion that Lee could have grabbed victory if he'd taken Little Round Top, in your opinion was it as important as often stated?

Rob

 

[jazzeum]

Rob,

I am not as knowledgeable as people like Al, George or Bob on these questions so I defer to them :redface2:

Brad

 

[Rob]

Rob,

I am not as knowledgeable as people like Al, George or Bob on these questions so I defer to them :redface2:

Brad

Me neither mate! I do appreciate your post above though Brad as I just find this whole conflict fascinating and its good to get so many expert opinions. I blame Mr Ken Burns for his series, then Bob for his dio's and most recently your goodself for all those interesting articles you've posted. {bravo}}

Have today been reading about a well known ACW Battlefield photographer who took some of the most famous and on occasion gory images. It is now believed however many were faked as a pristine rifle appears in many of them in unlikely positions. One of the most famous is of the ' sniper' in the Devils Den who is now believed to have been dragged into the scene.

Rob

 

[lancer]

Just to add my two cents to this LRT discussion, it is my opinion that it was the crucial position fot the Union Army. A simple look at the map and the disposition of both armies will make clear what could have happened had LRT fallen to Confederate assault. Had the CSA taken and occupied LRT, they overlook the entire Union position. No movement by Union forces goes unseen, and if artillery is put on LRT, the position becomes untenable and here the big problem comes to the fore. With the CSA taking LRT, their forces would have also commanded and cut the Taneytown Road, leaving only the Baltimore Pike as a possible supply route/line of retreat for the Union forces. With the fall of LRT and the cutting of the Taneytown Road, the Unoin forces are in a bag, all but surrounded. There would have been no room for manuever, no shelter from artillery fire and it probably been only a matter of time before the Confederates threatened the Baltimore Pike. The Union Army would have been forced out of their positions with the chances of the retreat turning into a rout being a real possibility. All speculation, of course, but I have always felt that the defense of LRT saved the Union Army from a disaster. -- Al

 

[Northgate Woods]

Just to add my two cents to this LRT discussion, it is my opinion that it was the crucial position fot the Union Army. A simple look at the map and the disposition of both armies will make clear what could have happened had LRT fallen to Confederate assault. Had the CSA taken and occupied LRT, they overlook the entire Union position. No movement by Union forces goes unseen, and if artillery is put on LRT, the position becomes untenable and here the big problem comes to the fore. With the CSA taking LRT, their forces would have also commanded and cut the Taneytown Road, leaving only the Baltimore Pike as a possible supply route/line of retreat for the Union forces. With the fall of LRT and the cutting of the Taneytown Road, the Unoin forces are in a bag, all but surrounded. There would have been no room for manuever, no shelter from artillery fire and it probably been only a matter of time before the Confederates threatened the Baltimore Pike. The Union Army would have been forced out of their positions with the chances of the retreat turning into a rout being a real possibility. All speculation, of course, but I have always felt that the defense of LRT saved the Union Army from a disaster. -- Al

Al mate,
Great summation cobber. A tactical study of the ground around Gettysburg definitely shows the huge importance of LRT. I have ponder many times the various outcomes of this Battle based on many what ifs. I put to the ACW buffs the following what ifs:
(1) Jackson had of been in Ewell's place on day one below Cemetery Hill.
(2) Buford had not been the great tactician that he was and blunted the Confederate advance and did not allow them to take the heights.
(3) Had Chamberlain not had the "internal strength" to lead a bayonet charge.
(4) Stuart had of been harassing the line of advance of the Union troops arriving at Gettysburg slowing down their arrival.
Just a few of my thoughts of many different outcomes.
Cheers Howard

 

[lancer]

Al mate,
Great summation cobber. A tactical study of the ground around Gettysburg definitely shows the huge importance of LRT. I have ponder many times the various outcomes of this Battle based on many what ifs. I put to the ACW buffs the following what ifs:
(1) Jackson had of been in Ewell's place on day one below Cemetery Hill.
(2) Buford had not been the great tactician that he was and blunted the Confederate advance and did not allow them to take the heights.
(3) Had Chamberlain not had the "internal strength" to lead a bayonet charge.
(4) Stuart had of been harassing the line of advance of the Union troops arriving at Gettysburg slowing down their arrival.
Just a few of my thoughts of many different outcomes.
Cheers Howard

Hi Howard. Thanks for the compliment. Your points are all legitimate 'what ifs'. Point 4 has been argued and re-argued for decades with the only real conclusion being that Stuart wasn't where he should have been when he should have been there. Point 1 is one of the all time favorite discussions and has, in fact, been discussed on this forum a few times. The obvious conclusion being that it would have been much better had Jackson been available, but it also opens up the whole question of the ANV's re-organization after Chancellorsville. Buford and Chamberlain were both at 'the tip of the spear' and made the crucial decisions that had to be made. Any one of these points could have changed the course of events had they gone another way. Gettysburg is just one of those events that can spark such interest on so many points, with so much over the course of those 3 days that could have been changed with just one different decision. Great stuff. -- Al

 

[Warrior]

George, do you mean that as they were positioned further down the slope as opposed to at the top they were involved less in the defence before they made their now famous charge? I very much understand what you mean about the film, it was the same over here, before ' Zulu ' few had even heard of Rorkes Drift.

Yes, the 20th Maine was positioned further down Little Round Top than most think. They were the end of the Union line, the very far left so to speak. If his position had been overtaken, the Confederates would have flanked the Union defenses at the top of the hill.

And Al is correct; from LRT, you can literally see the entire length of the union lines, it's quite a vew.

Louis; one thing you have to remember is Vicksburg fell on July 4th, so again, even IF the Confederates had won at Gettysburg on the 3rd, Vicksburg surrendering, which was the key to the Mississippi, was huge.

The Western theater bled the South dry as in 1864 Lee send some of the ANV to the western theater to help the cause there, further weakening his position......................

 

[Warrior]

I put to the ACW buffs the following what ifs:
(1) Jackson had of been in Ewell's place on day one below Cemetery Hill.
(2) Buford had not been the great tactician that he was and blunted the Confederate advance and did not allow them to take the heights.
(3) Had Chamberlain not had the "internal strength" to lead a bayonet charge.
(4) Stuart had of been harassing the line of advance of the Union troops arriving at Gettysburg slowing down their arrival.
Just a few of my thoughts of many different outcomes.
Cheers Howard

(1) Jackson would have attacked Culps Hill and may very well have taken it as the Union trenches and breastworks were not dug and built until late in the evening/early morning. Also, he probably woiuld have better coordinated the attack there on the 3rd day, timing it better to hit around the same time Lee attacked the Union center.

(2) Buford was a hero at Gettysburg, he held off the Confederates until Reynolds and 1st Corps could arrive, as well as the 11th Corps to the north.

(3) It was a brilliant military tactic, but I am not sure if it had more to do with them basically being out of ammunition.

(4) He was too busy seeing the countryside instead of doing his job, a huge blunder.

 

[lancer]

Yes, the 20th Maine was positioned further down Little Round Top than most think. They were the end of the Union line, the very far left so to speak. If his position had been overtaken, the Confederates would have flanked the Union defenses at the top of the hill.

And Al is correct; from LRT, you can literally see the entire length of the union lines, it's quite a vew.

Louis; one thing you have to remember is Vicksburg fell on July 4th, so again, even IF the Confederates had won at Gettysburg on the 3rd, Vicksburg surrendering, which was the key to the Mississippi, was huge.

The Western theater bled the South dry as in 1864 Lee send some of the ANV to the western theater to help the cause there, further weakening his position......................

Vicksburg was such a disaster and so painful a memory, that Vicksburg wouldn't celebrate the 4th of July in the spirit that it was meant for, until WW2. The loss of Vicksburg effectively split the south. As George says, it's loss was huge, hard to overstate. Lee sent Longstreet with his Corps west to assist the Western command. Longstreet played a large part in the victory at Chickamauga but didn't fare well at Knoxville. -- Al

 

[Scott]

Sinced the war didn't end when Richmond was evacuated, it took the surrender of the two last armies and the capture of Davis to achieve that. I don't think Lincoln would have let himselve be caught and a train or steamer gets him north, plus there were plenty of intact Union armie groups still in the field along with the victorious troops at Vickburg. Grant would have been able to wind that up and support the AOP. If Fort Sumter made the loyal citizens mad, try taking Washington.

It's a romantic daydream acording to Faulkner.

Cripes! The spell check doesn't work on my Work Computer!

 

[Northgate Woods]

Gentlemen,
The study of Military History and TS collecting always seem to go hand in hand. Two of my favourite photos posted sometime ago by I can remember who. Maybe Bob?? My computer screen saver.
My pick of the Leaders at Gettysburg, Brigadier John Buford and his two Brigades of the 1st Cavalry Division portrayed beautiful by the Dio builder using some excellent K&C figures.
Cheers Howard

 

[jazzeum]

Me neither mate! I do appreciate your post above though Brad as I just find this whole conflict fascinating and its good to get so many expert opinions. I blame Mr Ken Burns for his series, then Bob for his dio's and most recently your goodself for all those interesting articles you've posted. {bravo}}

Rob

Rob,

Glad to help in my own little way. Sorry I haven't posted any articles lately.

Don't want to hijack this thread but this time 150 years ago was a very interesting time politically. In the runup to Lincoln announcing emancipation to his Cabinet in July, we had Lincoln approaching the border states about compensated emancipation (which was rebuffed), slaves getting their freedom in the District of Columbia, the two confiscation acts (relating to confiscation of Southern slaves so as to deprive the South of slave labor), Congress restricting slavery in the territories and Lincoln hinting at emancipation when he overturned Gen. David Hunter's order freeing slaves in his military district in Florida (indicating that if it was a necessity to free the slaves in order to maintain the government, that was a question he reserved to himself).

 

[trooper]

I have never been able to understand why the Rebel troops didn't simply outflank the 20th, move round behind them and attack them with the advantage of higher ground from the rear. All it would have taken was a wider sweep to the right which would have negated Chamberlain's refusal of his line. However IMO Lee would have had a better chance of winning had he had the intelligence that could have been provided by Stuart. Knowledge of the North's troop disposition would have enabled him to take a better position, apply more pressure at strategic points and possibly avoid the horrendous casualties of Pickett's charge. With fewer casualties he might then have been in a position to threaten Washington, although in the long run the South could never have won the war. Trooper