Andy’s Response (3 Viewers)

[King & Country]

Hi Guys,

Recently “Fishead” commented that he “hated limited editions” and “hated the whole retirement thing” and gave his reasons for doing so.

First of all, everyone has a right to an opinion and if that really is “Fishead’s”… so be it. But from my point-of-view as a manufacturer and collector myself—I beg to differ.

The pros and cons of the “Limited Edition” have been discussed endlessly on this forum and the other one. For me, it’s a way to design and produce something a little out of the ordinary that might just have more of a “limited” appeal rather than a “general” appeal to the collecting public.

By adding on special figures… or different packaging… sometimes a brochure you make that item a “Value Added Product.” By limiting the numbers you don’t obviously overproduce and you add to the “collectability”.

None of the above is, of course, rocket science… it’s standard operating procedure for many companies… K&C included. Most dealers also like it because they get a quick return on their investment and that allows them to reinvest in more new product which keeps their collectors and customers satisfied and me happy too.

Now onto the “Retirement” issue… Retirement of older product is not only an option but an essential part of doing business. Manufacturers… distributors… dealers… and collectors all have a “SPACE” problem.

None of us has the luxury of unlimited space to carry each and every item we have ever designed… manufactured… sold… or collected over the years.

Older items have to make way for newer items all the time. Simultaneously as we keep trying to improve our product and as new improvements come “on stream” we can look at earlier pieces and say, “Well it was good for then but we can do so much better now!”

One other point—an important one—is that every item, no matter how good, has a definite “shelf life”. Items can sell extremely well for six months… a year…. Or even more but then interest from collectors eventually wanes. That’s also why we retire something. Is “Fishead” suggesting that just because he wants an item or series continued that a dealer or manufacturer must hang on to it indefinitely?

As many of you know I love this hobby/ business passionately. But, and it’s a big but, it has to be run as a business on a professional basis. That means fresh new products that excite and expand the market… constantly. Not only do I think will most of my fellow manufacturers agree but so, I believe, will most collectors… Best wishes and happy collecting to one and all!

Andy C. Neilson

 

[Vezzolf]

Hi Guys,

Recently “Fishead” commented that he “hated limited editions” and “hated the whole retirement thing” and gave his reasons for doing so.

First of all, everyone has a right to an opinion and if that really is “Fishead’s”… so be it. But from my point-of-view as a manufacturer and collector myself—I beg to differ.

The pros and cons of the “Limited Edition” have been discussed endlessly on this forum and the other one. For me, it’s a way to design and produce something a little out of the ordinary that might just have more of a “limited” appeal rather than a “general” appeal to the collecting public.

By adding on special figures… or different packaging… sometimes a brochure you make that item a “Value Added Product.” By limiting the numbers you don’t obviously overproduce and you add to the “collectability”.

None of the above is, of course, rocket science… it’s standard operating procedure for many companies… K&C included. Most dealers also like it because they get a quick return on their investment and that allows them to reinvest in more new product which keeps their collectors and customers satisfied and me happy too.

Now onto the “Retirement” issue… Retirement of older product is not only an option but an essential part of doing business. Manufacturers… distributors… dealers… and collectors all have a “SPACE” problem.

None of us has the luxury of unlimited space to carry each and every item we have ever designed… manufactured… sold… or collected over the years.

Older items have to make way for newer items all the time. Simultaneously as we keep trying to improve our product and as new improvements come “on stream” we can look at earlier pieces and say, “Well it was good for then but we can do so much better now!”

One other point—an important one—is that every item, no matter how good, has a definite “shelf life”. Items can sell extremely well for six months… a year…. Or even more but then interest from collectors eventually wanes. That’s also why we retire something. Is “Fishead” suggesting that just because he wants an item or series continued that a dealer or manufacturer must hang on to it indefinitely?

As many of you know I love this hobby/ business passionately. But, and it’s a big but, it has to be run as a business on a professional basis. That means fresh new products that excite and expand the market… constantly. Not only do I think will most of my fellow manufacturers agree but so, I believe, will most collectors… Best wishes and happy collecting to one and all!

Andy C. Neilson

Andy, I am new to this hobby but have been collecting your WWII pieces for about a year now...By the way I like your product, its VERY WELL DONE......My only complaint has been that there have been some relatively recent retired items which some collectors have been trying to sell at extremely inflated prices......if the new comer to the hobby misses out on a product he is at the mercy of " collectors" who seek to exploit others by hording items and then selling them at 3-4 x their original cost......I personally have refused to be taken advantage of in this manner......My point is this:there are some WWII items that are popular sellers and will always be popular sellers with the average enthusiast......e.g. Tiger tanks, Panzers, 88 Flakguns etc....What would be wrong from your point of view to re-issue a few popular products say after 3-5 years with different serial or lot numbers......or with minor variations.......This would allow new hobbists to enjoy purchasing at a fair price........Thank you for your response respectfully Vezzolf........MY QUESTION IS DIRECTED TO ANDY ONLY.....Thank you.....

 

[Eazy]

Personally I really like the Limited Editions. I admit to liking the smaller run ones like the Grief and Winter Tiger and the flak88 because if you are lucky enough to have one than it feels like you have something special.
I know newer collectors may have missed out but that does create a bit of a buzz in the marketplace and more excitement about future smaller editions.

 

[Njja]

It seems to me everyone even Louis has a few items he has missed.......its

just part of the fun of collecting. So you hunt for them, maybe you will find

them at cost sitting on a shelf in some out of the way hobby shop. Maybe

you will make a trade for them with another collector. Some collectors may

crack open a piggy bank and pay what they think the item is worth......its

just that simple.

My question is what gives some collectors the right to question what others

do? If you don't want to spend more then $5 for a retired wooden tiger ok

thats your business. If another collector has been looking for that piece for

years and he spends $1000 on it thats his business.

I assure you that the collector with $$$$ to spend did not get it winning the

lottery, and in most cases he will not spend $5 more then he feels the piece

is worth.

99% of collecting is the fun of the hunt.

Njja

 

[Louis Badolato]

It seems to me everyone even Louis has a few items he has missed.......its

just part of the fun of collecting. So you hunt for them, maybe you will find

them at cost sitting on a shelf in some out of the way hobby shop. Maybe

you will make a trade for them with another collector. Some collectors may

crack open a piggy bank and pay what they think the item is worth......its

just that simple.

. . .

99% of collecting is the fun of the hunt.

Njja

I couldn't agree more. One of the reasons I was never interested in collecting William Hocker's stuff, or Beau Geste, despite the fact that they both produce excellent traditional glossy figures which would display well with my old glossy K&C, is that they never retire stuff. I love the idea that what I collect is only available for a limited time, and that if I miss it, I have to hunt for it, sometimes for years. When you find something you have been after forever, it is an amazing feeling. Plus it would be boring to be able to just pick up anything you want. The thrill of the hunt is really half the fun of this hobby.

 

[jazzeum]

This will come as no surprise to no one but I agree with what Andy has said and you can see that it was a well written measured response.

The thrill of the hunt is indeed the fun. As many of you know, it took me about eight or nine tries to get the Rommel Staff Car. It was maddening to keep losing out. However, when I did finally get it, I was elated. At first, after I had the piece, it was like "so what" but as time has gone, I love the piece and it was well worth the effort it took to get it.

 

[fishead19690]

Its seems were all into this hobby for different reasons and all seem to have different collecting habbits and tastes and views.
Andy its seems like for some reason I always get under your skin and don,t mean to we just have different views on things! I realize that its hard to stock all the various lines you have but how about keeping some of the more popular iteams in circulation longer and hold on to the molds and wait till the stock on hand is all sold out before producing more of the figures so you don,t have to have warehouses full of stock. Its your bussiness and I,m sure your not going to take my advice, I,m just voicing my opion and getting under your skin again!!!
Your bussiness seems to have done fine so far without my advice so please don,t get up set at my posts. I,m not tring to attack you or your bussiness and not everyone Worships Andy, There are other religions!!! (please note that this IS a joke)

So sorry to get under your skin AGAIN!!! Now go make some more great napoleonics!!! Lots of them and NOT limited !!!

Viva L,Empereur!!! Till andy retires him!!!

 

[sceic2]

I completely agree with Andy, Louis, NJJA and Brad

The way that K&C has handled its inventory control has lead me to believe in not just the intrinsic value of my collection, but also in its resale value. While I do not intend to sell any of my collection in the forseeable future who knows what decisions I will have to make at some point in a future time

And, not having the capability to make large investments in collectables (like dead painter's art works or 1st edition's of famous authors), investing in K&C does give me that feeling of collecting pieces of art. Art is in the eye of the beholder and I believe that toy soldier collecting is collecting art

My own advice to Andy is to continue to do as he has done.

But, the posting by Andy seemed a put me off a little bit in its tone. If I were Fishead, and I am not, I would wonder just what I had done to make Andy's response so hostile. I hope I am making something out of nothing and it is just my personal perception of Andy's post. However, that's the first impression I had. Perhaps using the icons on the right side of the reply thread might help us to understand the emotions of the posting in a more realistic manner

 

[fishead19690]

This will come as no surprise to no one but I agree with what Andy has said and you can see that it was a well written measured response.

The thrill of the hunt is indeed the fun. As many of you know, it took me about eight or nine tries to get the Rommel Staff Car. It was maddening to keep losing out. However, when I did finally get it, I was elated. At first, after I had the piece, it was like "so what" but as time has gone, I love the piece and it was well worth the effort it took to get it.

Well worth the efort and only 10 times the origanal price??? You guys like the thrill of the chase, and I don,t mind so munch the thrill of the chase but its the over inflated prices is what kills me. I don,t know maybe its just me but I don,t seem to care how limited something is just how munch I like the iteam and if there are only 10 or 10,000 it makes no difference to me. If there are10,000 I,ll just pay less for the same thing and every one can have one.

Again just my opion!

 

[Louis Badolato]

Well worth the efort and only 10 times the origanal price??? You guys like the thrill of the chase, and I don,t mind so munch the thrill of the chase but its the over inflated prices is what kills me. I don,t know maybe its just me but I don,t seem to care how limited something is just how munch I like the iteam and if there are only 10 or 10,000 it makes no difference to me. If there are10,000 I,ll just pay less for the same thing and every one can have one.

Again just my opion!

Tim,

For many years, the thrill of the chase was not accompanied by the insane prices in todays secondary market. That, however, is not a function of Andy's retirement policy (which has been in place pretty much from day one in 1984) but of the ebay international marketplace. Before ebay, I can honestly say I only paid an insane price for an item (the original resin and metal 8 Wheeled Armored Car, of which only 10-15 were made) once (and it was an ex-girlfirend, not me, who bought it). Once ebay exposed items to every collector worldwide, and a couple of dozen hard core collectors with deep pockets started going after stuff, the prices of the rarer items went through the roof, and the inflation seemed to effect the prices of everything else K&C. Plus, K&C's growing popularity brought at least a thousand, maybe more, new collectors into the mix, so the older stuff was even more in demand. I don't blame you for being a little freaked out by the prices. Frankly, I couldn't afford my collection at todays prices.

Louis

 

[fishead19690]

I read back my post on the other thread and I did kind of come on strong about the whole subject and I apologize to any one I my have offended with my post. I guess I must have had a hair across somewhere when I posted it.
I see how some of you veiw this hobby as art collecting and at the prices for some of this stuff
It can be frustrating at times and hard on the wallet tring to keep up and when iteams get retired and the only way to get an iteam is on ebay for twice the origanal price because its been retired!

So I,m sure there are many others out there that see no fault in the anger and frustration in my post having dealt with the same thing themselfs.

So sorry to anyone who I may have upset even though I still Hate retirements!!!

 

[Vezzolf]

Well worth the efort and only 10 times the origanal price??? You guys like the thrill of the chase, and I don,t mind so munch the thrill of the chase but its the over inflated prices is what kills me. I don,t know maybe its just me but I don,t seem to care how limited something is just how munch I like the iteam and if there are only 10 or 10,000 it makes no difference to me. If there are10,000 I,ll just pay less for the same thing and every one can have one.

Again just my opion!

10x the original price may be well on the way, as long as foolish purchasers continue to OVER-PAY for "retired" items......but all good things (or should I say not so good things) do come to an end.......then turn-out the lights the party is over........back to reality.......

 

[Firebat]

I am glad they are retired. I really wish they would retire them sooner. The less there are the more valuable they have to be.

If I missed it, or wasn't in the hobby at the time too bad for me. But I know now, there always seems to be a repaint or something that comes along.

I don't like paying a lot of money for retired stuff and as someone said, if you wait it out you just might score. Over the past five or six months I found 5 retired K&C pieces at the original price. I just want the Whitttman and the Winter Tiger now. I missed the Winter Tiger on EBAY a few days ago it sold for $250, not bad. Firebat

 

[boot51]

Tim, there's no need to apologize, you have every right to voice an opinion, if I'm not mistaken that's what a forum is all about. You voiced yours and so be it, if you don't like handing out big money for limited editions and retired pieces, that's your business. It can be frustrating as hell to want certain older pieces, but not have the resources to pay the big asking price, I've learned to just forget about them. They'll most likely be produced again sooner or later and look a lot better than the old one anyway. All you did was say what was on your mind about LE's and retired stuff, it wasn't a personal attack on Andy. I think the response was a little on the strong side.

Fred

 

[OzDigger]

I'm not sure how I was late to this party, was it invitation only

Let's recap the comments from fishead that resulted in the response from Andy.

I collect for myself and I hate the limited editions. To me it just means higher prices that I have to pay for figures that I,ll never get a resale value for because I do not intend to sell.
I hate the whole retirement thing also and wish they made each figure by the ton to bring the price down not up.

I collect napoleonics and for a good diorama you need lots of figures because these were huge battles with 100,000-300,000 men on the field at times in huge lines colums and squares and the limited edition/early retirement B.S. dosn,t help my collecting at all.

Most of you guys also have no intension of ever selling your collections also but still buy into this limited edition B.S. and I can,t understand why??? To me it just means I have to pay more and have to worry about buying that figure or set before its retired and I have to buy it from some Ebay scalper who is going to over charge me for it.

The Ebay guys and the manafactures are the only ones making out on the deal!!!

I don,t know why you guys buy into this!!! It reminds me of something I once heard a comedian say ( women will buy shoes just so other women can,t have them).

Thats just my take on the whole limited edtion thing!!!!

The only time I see a need for a limited edition is for an item that has limited market, something that would only sell a very small amount and not apeal to the masses but Would sell on small scale to the FEW how would buy that iteam, but I think the whole thing has turned into a marketing tool and is used to try and drive up the price.

Thats just my opion and i,m sure there are guys out there that think they are making some huge investment in toy soldiers and are going retire on the the investment of the toy soldiers that they say they,ll never sell??? What ever???

I just like to collect for myself and I guess were all into this hobby for different reasons but you guys who are making investments just remember the beanie baby craze!!!

Personally I agree with the idea of 'retirement' because it allows the introduction of new figures and models. And as Andy has said before, most items are retired when their sales drop off. It's just that some drop sooner than others.

The pros and cons of the “Limited Edition” have been discussed endlessly on this forum and the other one. For me, it’s a way to design and produce something a little out of the ordinary that might just have more of a “limited” appeal rather than a “general” appeal to the collecting public.

By adding on special figures… or different packaging… sometimes a brochure you make that item a “Value Added Product.” By limiting the numbers you don’t obviously overproduce and you add to the “collectability”.

Andy C. Neilson

I hope this is the way of the future. However, I have to say I wonder how the Strictly Limited 'Rommel Greif' fitted into that idea.

To be fair to Andy I don't think he was offensive to Tim (fishead) from what I read. And Tim really has nothing to apologise for either. He is simply expressing the view of what I believe is the majority of people that collect King and Country.

In fact I continue to doubt that limited production runs is advantageous to King & Country in an ever expanding market. Unless of course you have subsequent reissues with some 'tweeks' to make the new version different. And this is what seems to be the future if the past can be any indication. Good for collectors, but not so good for investors

In closing, I feel the increased prices of some figures and sets on eBay is more the result of a 'perceived' valuation by a few investors and out of control collectors, rather than an indication of their 'real' worth. Considering the continued improvements to King & Country's figures and vehicles I have very little desire for most of the earlier sets. If some guys like them that's fine, to each their own as they say.

 

[fishead19690]

Boy how did I get myself into this one??? I haven,t taken this munch slack since I suggested making K&C figures in plastic! I always try to stay out of these arguments and it seems like I started this one. Can we delete these posts and pretend I never posted them.

 

[wadepat]

Boy how did I get myself into this one??? I haven,t taken this munch slack since I suggested making K&C figures in plastic! I always try to stay out of these arguments and it seems like I started this one. Can we delete these posts and pretend I never posted them.

Hi Fishead,

I am rather enjoying this discussion. It is providing me with much food for thought!

I also think this thread may have achieved a life of its own. If you just quietly withdraw from the discussion, maybe no one will notice and everyone will forget it started with your post.

Warmest personal regards,

Pat

P.S. I do enjoy your thoughts!

 

[OzDigger]

Btw, we forgot the most import issue in the Limited Editions arguement.

Which is the fact that a number of people buy multiples of Limited Edition items PURELY to make money via resale on eBay.

If not for these people there would not be an issue as every collector, including those in remote areas, would get the opportunity to get the pieces they want.

Sadly it is because of the GREED of a FEW that many collectors miss out and are sometimes forced to buy at inflated prices on eBay. I know we all try not to pay to much, but sometimes it's hard not to - we luv this stuff

I don't know what schemes Andy and the King & Country dealers can install to stop this practice. But I do hope they try. What do you guys think?

 

[Njja]

Again with the greed this is nonsense. A dealer now has a large collection

for sale on the other forum.....the prices are far above the original retails

but I have not heard one signle complaint. He is simply offering retired items

to the marketplace. Collectors may buy or not its their choice who are we to

judge? The important question is is this dealer a fair guy.....and the answer

is YES. I as well as many others have done business with him and he always

provides a top quality piece as advertised.

A couple of collectors have taken a flyer and bought sever "Limited Items"

they are taking a chance.......maybe they will sell maybe they will sit. You

may notice the last two limited releases are still available.

Lets not judge other collectors.....judge yourself after all thats the only

person you can control.

Njja

 

[Combat]

As a collector, I have never had any trouble getting a KC limited edition item. To my knowledge only a few have ever sold out. So the allegations about mysterious hoarders of KC items is either overstated or to the extent a few folks may actually be doing this it has had little impact on the overall availability of items. Frankly, I am amazed that it is so easy to buy this stuff given that KC produces only a few thousand pieces per item and they sell on a worldwide basis.