Antony Beevor Crete (1 Viewer)
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Rob
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Has anyone read the book Crete from Antony Beevor? I'm a big fan of him; I already read Stalingrad and the Fall of Berlin.
CHEERS
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Wow it just arrived yesterday,havn't started it yet!.I too read Stalingrad and Berlin both fantastic books so am loooking forward to Crete.I have also ordered Armegeddon by Max Hastings because i want to read it before his next book 'Nemesis' comes out in October.
Rob
debrito
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Hi Rob,
Thank for the tips. I read two times Stalingrad; it is absolutely the best book from Beevor and one of the best books of WWII.
I will follow your foot steps and check out theses two other books, Armegeddon by Max Hastings and Nemesis.
Thanks for the advice.
Cheers
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Thank for the tips. I read two times Stalingrad; it is absolutely the best book from Beevor and one of the best books of WWII.
I will follow your foot steps and check out theses two other books, Armegeddon by Max Hastings and Nemesis.
Thanks for the advice.
Cheers
Visit
jazzeum
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The new Max Hastings book is available for pre-order on Amazon UK but not in the US. If the Warriors book (a very entertaining read, by the way) that he did a year or so go is any guide, it will be awhile before this is available in the US. I will probably pre-order it through the UK.
Harrytheheid
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Brad,
If Nemesis is anything like as spellbinding as Armageddon, then it'll be worth the wait.
Eazy
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I second that! Das Reich is a great book for anyone interested in the subject of resistance in France and special operations.
It's main focus is the SS Das Reich division's journey through France in June 1944 to reach the Normandy area.
It has some pretty harrowing accounts of the atrocities at Tulle and Oradour Sur Glane.
Rob
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Well at the moement i am reading Hastings 'Armageddon'.What a good read it is.Hard to understand what a disater Arnhem was,the Para's on the ground fought incedibly bravely but bungling from above secured the failure of the operation.Also Arnhem is mainly considered a British operation and a British disaster.However the American Paratroopers also performed miracles around Nijmegen,the US airbornes crossing of the river Waal must have been one of the most heroic actions of the war.I think the US participation at Arnhem is criminally overlooked.
I learnt some other shocking facts even in the introduction to this book!.That New Zealand forces massacred German medics and wounded at a first aid post in North Africa and that British sub commander 'Skip' Miers routinely machine gunned German seaman in the sea after sinking their ships (we Brits think only the Germans did that!)For his actions he was given the VC and made an admiral.I also learnt that the famous Red Bull express was not as efficent or successful as has always been portrayed,the use of priceless Gasoline and wastage of trucks was amazing.
I am only eighty six pages in but already i can highly recommend it!
Rob
I learnt some other shocking facts even in the introduction to this book!.That New Zealand forces massacred German medics and wounded at a first aid post in North Africa and that British sub commander 'Skip' Miers routinely machine gunned German seaman in the sea after sinking their ships (we Brits think only the Germans did that!)For his actions he was given the VC and made an admiral.I also learnt that the famous Red Bull express was not as efficent or successful as has always been portrayed,the use of priceless Gasoline and wastage of trucks was amazing.
I am only eighty six pages in but already i can highly recommend it!
Rob
vandilay
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Hi Rob
If you are refering to the breakout from Minquar Qaim in 1942
I,ve read a few first hand accounts of this action [my next door neighbour
was involved aswell as his imediate neighbour]brigadier george clifton
their is a photo in his book of rommel interviewing him about the
rumour kiwis bayoneted wounded etc .
Here is his explanation to rommel from his book the happy hunted
'I wish to explain what we know happened during the night attack when the New Zealanders broke out a minqar qaim.our first attacking wave,advancing silently in the darkness caught your infantry by suprise.
after the leading wave passed,some of your men lying on the ground,fired thier guns or threw bombs at the new zealanders who had gone through.
This action was seen by our supporting companies who followed in a secound assaulting line,and they bayonetted or shot everyone either lying down or standing who did not surrender imediatly.The field marshall is a front line fighter and will apreciate that,under these conditions at night,men already wounded could be bayoneted possibly more than once" end quote
This explanation satisfied rommel and the matter was put to rest.
I stand corrected if this is not the incident he is refering to but it is
the only one i have heard of involving kiwis
If you are refering to the breakout from Minquar Qaim in 1942
I,ve read a few first hand accounts of this action [my next door neighbour
was involved aswell as his imediate neighbour]brigadier george clifton
their is a photo in his book of rommel interviewing him about the
rumour kiwis bayoneted wounded etc .
Here is his explanation to rommel from his book the happy hunted
'I wish to explain what we know happened during the night attack when the New Zealanders broke out a minqar qaim.our first attacking wave,advancing silently in the darkness caught your infantry by suprise.
after the leading wave passed,some of your men lying on the ground,fired thier guns or threw bombs at the new zealanders who had gone through.
This action was seen by our supporting companies who followed in a secound assaulting line,and they bayonetted or shot everyone either lying down or standing who did not surrender imediatly.The field marshall is a front line fighter and will apreciate that,under these conditions at night,men already wounded could be bayoneted possibly more than once" end quote
This explanation satisfied rommel and the matter was put to rest.
I stand corrected if this is not the incident he is refering to but it is
the only one i have heard of involving kiwis
Last edited:
vandilay
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heres a link with a little more info from another book
http://www.beehive.govt.nz/ViewDocument.aspx?DocumentID=26183
Surrounded and facing defeat the following day, the plan was formulated for the Division to break through the German lines just after midnight on 28 June 1942. The infantrymen of the fourth brigade spearheaded the Division’s attack. Their advance was marked by cheers and Maori war cries that struck terror into the heart their opponents. The attack caught the surrounding German forces by surprise. In confused and ferocious close-quarter combat the New Zealanders bayoneted and shot their way through the enemy forces. One man, in a very New Zealand metaphor described how “we went straight down the field through everything and everybody, like a pack of All Black forwards.”
The Fourth Brigade’s commander Jim Burrows was stunned by the way his men surged forward spontaneously. Every man appreciated that they were in a desperate position, and that the fate of the New Zealand Division and the hopes of New Zealanders at home depended on them. The spearhead of infantry was followed by hundreds of vehicles of all sorts into which as many men as possible had been crammed.
The breakout was an audacious operation and an electrifying experience for all those who took part. The New Zealand war artist, Peter McIntyre captured this in his famous painting of the battle. One of the things that comes through clearly in this book is the way in which the confusion, fear and exhilaration of that night has imprinted itself on the memory of all who survived it. Colin has used first-hand accounts, both by New Zealanders and Germans, to bring the battle to life.
The day before the breakout, General Freyberg was seriously wounded and had to pass command of the Division to Brigadier Lindsay Inglis. During the breakout, the improvised ambulance carrying Freyberg was twice hit by enemy fire. At one point Freyberg pulled himself up from his stretcher and looking out a window called out: “My God, Another Balaclava”!
Fortunately, the breakout was not another charge of the Light Brigade, and although the New Zealand Division suffered significant losses, it quickly recovered and went on to play a key role in stopping the Axis advance into Egypt. Had the Division been destroyed at Minqar Qaim, New Zealand would not have been able to make the significant contribution it did between 1942 and 1945, in North Africa and in Italy, to the defeat of Nazi Germany.
The outstanding bravery and leadership displayed by Captain Charles Upham during the breakout is well known, contributing to the awarding of his second VC. Moreover Colin Cameron recounts numerous other incidents in which the officers and men of the New Zealand Division showed great courage and devotion to duty.
However, the breakout was not without controversy. Unfortunately, during the melee a German medical unit was inadvertently attacked and many of its personnel and patients killed. This incident has led to allegations that some of the New Zealand troops involved in the battle committed a war crime. Colin Cameron’s work, like earlier studies that have examined the battle in detail, demonstrates that these charges are not justified. All the available evidence shows that in the heat of the battle the New Zealand troops involved not aware that the German personnel they were attacking were from a medical unit.
Military historian and soldier Chris Pugsley has pointed out, in the context of a battle being fought in the middle of the night 'anything that moved received attention just in case you suddenly got a burst from behind once you had passed over'. A few months after the battle, Field Marshal Rommel, the commander of the German Africa Corps, raised these allegations with the newly captured New Zealander, Brigadier George Clifton. Clifton responded by explaining the circumstances of intense and confused fighting at night. Rommel, a honourable man and a vastly experienced front-line soldier, accepted this explanation. I hope that this book will help ensure that what really happened in the early hours of 28 June 1942 is properly understood.
Rommel’s conversation with George Clifton is the most famous exchange between a senior New Zealand officer and an enemy commander. During that conversation Rommel also asked why the New Zealanders were fighting in North Africa, so far away from their homeland. In this context it is worth repeating wartime Prime Minister, Peter Fraser's comments about why New Zealand had gone to war with Germany in 1939. Fraser saw the war as “a conflict between two diametrically opposed conceptions of international relationships, between reason and force” and believed that victory for Germany would “mean the triumph of violence and the trampling underfoot of all that we hold dear”.
http://www.beehive.govt.nz/ViewDocument.aspx?DocumentID=26183
Surrounded and facing defeat the following day, the plan was formulated for the Division to break through the German lines just after midnight on 28 June 1942. The infantrymen of the fourth brigade spearheaded the Division’s attack. Their advance was marked by cheers and Maori war cries that struck terror into the heart their opponents. The attack caught the surrounding German forces by surprise. In confused and ferocious close-quarter combat the New Zealanders bayoneted and shot their way through the enemy forces. One man, in a very New Zealand metaphor described how “we went straight down the field through everything and everybody, like a pack of All Black forwards.”
The Fourth Brigade’s commander Jim Burrows was stunned by the way his men surged forward spontaneously. Every man appreciated that they were in a desperate position, and that the fate of the New Zealand Division and the hopes of New Zealanders at home depended on them. The spearhead of infantry was followed by hundreds of vehicles of all sorts into which as many men as possible had been crammed.
The breakout was an audacious operation and an electrifying experience for all those who took part. The New Zealand war artist, Peter McIntyre captured this in his famous painting of the battle. One of the things that comes through clearly in this book is the way in which the confusion, fear and exhilaration of that night has imprinted itself on the memory of all who survived it. Colin has used first-hand accounts, both by New Zealanders and Germans, to bring the battle to life.
The day before the breakout, General Freyberg was seriously wounded and had to pass command of the Division to Brigadier Lindsay Inglis. During the breakout, the improvised ambulance carrying Freyberg was twice hit by enemy fire. At one point Freyberg pulled himself up from his stretcher and looking out a window called out: “My God, Another Balaclava”!
Fortunately, the breakout was not another charge of the Light Brigade, and although the New Zealand Division suffered significant losses, it quickly recovered and went on to play a key role in stopping the Axis advance into Egypt. Had the Division been destroyed at Minqar Qaim, New Zealand would not have been able to make the significant contribution it did between 1942 and 1945, in North Africa and in Italy, to the defeat of Nazi Germany.
The outstanding bravery and leadership displayed by Captain Charles Upham during the breakout is well known, contributing to the awarding of his second VC. Moreover Colin Cameron recounts numerous other incidents in which the officers and men of the New Zealand Division showed great courage and devotion to duty.
However, the breakout was not without controversy. Unfortunately, during the melee a German medical unit was inadvertently attacked and many of its personnel and patients killed. This incident has led to allegations that some of the New Zealand troops involved in the battle committed a war crime. Colin Cameron’s work, like earlier studies that have examined the battle in detail, demonstrates that these charges are not justified. All the available evidence shows that in the heat of the battle the New Zealand troops involved not aware that the German personnel they were attacking were from a medical unit.
Military historian and soldier Chris Pugsley has pointed out, in the context of a battle being fought in the middle of the night 'anything that moved received attention just in case you suddenly got a burst from behind once you had passed over'. A few months after the battle, Field Marshal Rommel, the commander of the German Africa Corps, raised these allegations with the newly captured New Zealander, Brigadier George Clifton. Clifton responded by explaining the circumstances of intense and confused fighting at night. Rommel, a honourable man and a vastly experienced front-line soldier, accepted this explanation. I hope that this book will help ensure that what really happened in the early hours of 28 June 1942 is properly understood.
Rommel’s conversation with George Clifton is the most famous exchange between a senior New Zealand officer and an enemy commander. During that conversation Rommel also asked why the New Zealanders were fighting in North Africa, so far away from their homeland. In this context it is worth repeating wartime Prime Minister, Peter Fraser's comments about why New Zealand had gone to war with Germany in 1939. Fraser saw the war as “a conflict between two diametrically opposed conceptions of international relationships, between reason and force” and believed that victory for Germany would “mean the triumph of violence and the trampling underfoot of all that we hold dear”.
Last edited:
Rob
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I'm not sure about that.Max hastings says it is a well documented massacre of Medical staff and Patients.I find it hard to accept that wounded patients can be killed by mistake,even in the 'heat of battle'.In the passage you quoted it did sound as if this massacre was glossed over a bit with the word 'unfortunately'.A sad stain on the otherwise good reputation of the New Zealanders i think.
Rob
Rob
vandilay
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perhaps you should read more than one mans opinion before jumping to that
conclusion .
A breakout by a full division at midnight involving a bayonet charge is going to be pretty ferocious .
To say its a blight on the new zealanders is taking it a little far.
I,ll take the word of the men who where their over max hastings any day.
conclusion .
A breakout by a full division at midnight involving a bayonet charge is going to be pretty ferocious .
To say its a blight on the new zealanders is taking it a little far.
I,ll take the word of the men who where their over max hastings any day.
Harrytheheid
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I think the following quote says it all, “a conflict between two diametrically opposed conceptions of international relationships, between reason and force” and believed that victory for Germany would “mean the triumph of violence and the trampling underfoot of all that we hold dear”.
While agreeing in general with Rob's post and not glossing over what took place, I often wonder if the contribution of the Commonwealth to the overall Allied effort during WW2 is sometimes overlooked. K&C seem to have addressed this possible anomaly in their latest LRDG releases. I for one welcome this development.
While agreeing in general with Rob's post and not glossing over what took place, I often wonder if the contribution of the Commonwealth to the overall Allied effort during WW2 is sometimes overlooked. K&C seem to have addressed this possible anomaly in their latest LRDG releases. I for one welcome this development.
vandilay
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This is the last post i,ll make on this ,but to imply a massacre is
complete bollucks .The New Zealand division was surounded outnumbered and escaping in the middle of the night they didnt hang around to round to
round up wounded and slaughter them vis a vis a massacre.
I dont mind informed debate ,but their is no evedince to support the
claims of a massacre and I have spoken to vets and read numerous
accounts of this action.
complete bollucks .The New Zealand division was surounded outnumbered and escaping in the middle of the night they didnt hang around to round to
round up wounded and slaughter them vis a vis a massacre.
I dont mind informed debate ,but their is no evedince to support the
claims of a massacre and I have spoken to vets and read numerous
accounts of this action.
Harrytheheid
Banned
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- Apr 19, 2007
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Well at the moement i am reading Hastings 'Armageddon'.What a good read it is.Hard to understand what a disater Arnhem was,the Para's on the ground fought incedibly bravely but bungling from above secured the failure of the operation.Also Arnhem is mainly considered a British operation and a British disaster.However the American Paratroopers also performed miracles around Nijmegen,the US airbornes crossing of the river Waal must have been one of the most heroic actions of the war.I think the US participation at Arnhem is criminally overlooked.
I learnt some other shocking facts even in the introduction to this book!.That New Zealand forces massacred German medics and wounded at a first aid post in North Africa and that British sub commander 'Skip' Miers routinely machine gunned German seaman in the sea after sinking their ships (we Brits think only the Germans did that!)For his actions he was given the VC and made an admiral.I also learnt that the famous Red Bull express was not as efficent or successful as has always been portrayed,the use of priceless Gasoline and wastage of trucks was amazing.
I am only eighty six pages in but already i can highly recommend it!
Rob
Fantastic book isn't it Rob.
Just goes to show that, as I've suggested in previous posts, whether history regards you as a hero or a villain, tends to depend on whether you won or not.
Agree with your comments regarding the valour exhibited by American units during Market Garden. We tend to overlook the heroism of Robert Redford during WW2 - and that's a shocking piece of sarcasm that I herby here and now apologise profusely for. In all seriousness, the crossing of the Waal simply MUST go down as one of the most heroic actions of WW2. The scene in "A Bridge Too Far" when RR pleads with Carrington to go to the rescue of the Red Devils trapped in Arnehm is very thought provoking. Just proves my previous remarks that no single nation has a surfeit of bravery, and I include the ordinary German people in that statement. I often wonder if my generation could have undergone the suffering of the WW2 generation.