Antony Beevor Crete (1 Viewer)

[Harrytheheid]

No apology needed mate.

However this whole thing has made me stop and consider the forum a bit and my participation in it.I think it is a real shame you can't just post an innocent post without being shouted down and lambasted.I'm thinking maybe i have spent too long on here and obviously P*** people off.

Rob

Rob - who gives a toss? You are just as entitled to post your opinions as anyone else. This is a forum after all - and we're all entitled to post our opinions, whatever they may be, as long as they're kept clean-ish.
I for one couldn't care less if the Kiwis killed a few wounded jerrys. Serves them right for following such a disgusting political creed says I. (and if that isn't a lure, then I don't know what is).
PS. Job in Hamburg has turned to rat$hit....will have to come back here next week....SHAME.....

 

[Bob]

I wrote a four part article on Crete many years. What sticks in my mind is the comment by a British soldier – as Tommies were being taken off Crete he wrote in the sand that every man would get a medal inscribed Ex Creta.

 

[Rob]

I wrote a four part article on Crete many years. What sticks in my mind is the comment by a British soldier – as Tommies were being taken off Crete he wrote in the sand that every man would get a medal inscribed Ex Creta.

Classic Tommy humour!.

 

[Rob]

Ok having unintentionally upset Vandilay with my last post about this book i am carefully..returning to the subject of Max Hastings book.

Why is the Hurtgen Forest such an overlooked battle in WW2.The US infantry fought and suffered terrible conditions in this battle.It sounded more like the hell of High Wood in WW1 than a WW2 Battle.There was both outstanding courage in some and desertion amongst others.Casualties were fearful and many in command were sacked or moved to other posts.Is Hurtgen a more celebrated/remembered battle in the US?.I just think knowing the horror of it why its not one of the more famous battles of WW2.

Rob

 

[Louis Badolato]

There was a movie about the Huertgen debacle that portrayed it fairly accurately back in the early 1990's. It was the first I heard about the battle in my life. It was just completely glossed over in highschool and at University here in the States. After seeing the movie, I found some books on the subject, and once I understood what had happened, it sickened me. The accounts I read said the American commanders, who had never been within 20 miles of the front, assigned their troops an impossible task with absolutely no strategic value, as possessing those woods without first controlling the dams above them was less than useless. They did so because they had no understanding of the ground whatsoever. The bloody bucket division took insanely high casualties as a result of the commanders laziness and incompetence. Another circumstance where a court martial for the commander was in order.

 

[Rob]

I don't suppose you know the name of the film Louis?.This is a disgracefully overlooked battle and it deserves much more coverage.I understand the Rangers who performed heroics on D Day were called in to repeat the performance in the taking of a hill.Apparently they stormed up it and captured it but took heavy losses.

Rob

 

[Louis Badolato]

I don't remember the name of the movie, but I think it was a made for HBO movie.

 

[Rob]

Thanks Louis.Hill 400 was the name i was trying to think of.Apparently the PC game 'Call of Duty 2' is based on Hill 400.

I think i just found the title 'When trumpets fade'

Rob

 

[Louis Badolato]

I think you are right. "While Trumpets Fade" rings a bell.

 

[Rob]

Thanks Louis.It is available on R1 dvd already and is coming to R2 soon.Looks very good indeed.

Rob

 

[Louis Badolato]

It was a poor man's version of the concept of saving Private Ryan - showing that war is hell by accurately depicting its senselessness and brutality.

 

[Eazy]

Thanks Louis.Hill 400 was the name i was trying to think of.Apparently the PC game 'Call of Duty 2' is based on Hill 400.

I think i just found the title 'When trumpets fade'

Rob

Call of Duty 2 is the best one though 3 has the best graphics. That's a great battle when you storm up the hill take the bunker complex then have to defend it against incoming Tigers!

Yep in the films war is hell but in videogames it's really exciting!

The games don't get mentioned much on the forum but I bet they are creating a whole wave of kids with an interest in WW2.

 

[Canadian Samurai]

There was a movie about the Huertgen debacle that portrayed it fairly accurately back in the early 1990's. It was the first I heard about the battle in my life. It was just completely glossed over in highschool and at University here in the States. After seeing the movie, I found some books on the subject, and once I understood what had happened, it sickened me. The accounts I read said the American commanders, who had never been within 20 miles of the front, assigned their troops an impossible task with absolutely no strategic value, as possessing those woods without first controlling the dams above them was less than useless. They did so because they had no understanding of the ground whatsoever. The bloody bucket division took insanely high casualties as a result of the commanders laziness and incompetence. Another circumstance where a court martial for the commander was in order.

This is one of the two examples I started off with last week in the Favorite Commanders thread before it degenerated into a debate about WW1. It shows EVERY country in WW2 had dumb commanders who needlessly sent their men to die.

And Eazy, I agree, the toy soldier industry is going to be able to thank video games for bringing in a whole new generation of buyers 10-20 years down the road. I'm looking forward to Brothers in Arms Hells Highway, which is about (and this should make Rob happy) U.S. involvement in Market Garden. Looks to be one of the most realistic portrayls of combat ever - if only I had a PC or console system powerful enough to run it...

 

[jazzeum]

I believe that right now the WW II video game market is over saturated, according to the mags my son reads, so I don't know how many kids are really being brought into the hobby or generating interest in history. I think kids just like shooter games.

My son has the Call of Duty games which I enjoy as well as the Brothers in Arms series. However, my favorite game still remains, even though it was probably the first big one, was Medal of Honor Allied Assault. Still a great game.

 

[Canadian Samurai]

Hi Brad,

Allied Assault + the two expansion packs remain some of my favourites also. Great games for the time and still to this day.

I follow the video game industry closely and you're right for a while now there's been a lot of eye rolling in the press about how many umpteenth WW2 shooters have been made and how it's really beating a dead horse. They have a point (I've tried to play most of them over the years and its hard to keep up sometimes), however I don't see these same critics complaining about another Madden NFL coming out every season etc.

I think the biggest problem is most of the games centre on the U.S. Airborne in Normandy which can get a bit stale after a while. One of my favourites was Medal of Honor Pacific Assault, but it only lasted to Tarawa so there's the whole rest of the Pacific campaign left to be done. The Eastern Front also is severely under-represented - basically most games focus on Stalingrad and that's it. I think the time has finally come for a WWII shooter from the German perspective, entirely on the Eastern Front. Maybe call if "Cross of Iron". It couldn't be any more controversial than the latest breeds of games like Grand Theft Auto, Manhunt, Resident Evil 5 etc.

There's also a lot of opportunity for historical shooters outside of WW2 but before Vietnam (since that theatre has been done already). How about the most overlooked conflict of the last century, Korea, defending against swarms of incoming enemies? How about WW1 (featuring trench raids, the most realistic artillery bombardments ever etc.)? How about a Zulu war game (you can play from both the British and Zulu perspectives - in the former case one level has you defending Rorke's drift from swarms of onrushing Zulus - in the other case, as a Zulu, you eventually pick up a Martini-Henry rifle and use it against the invaders of your country).

I think developers need to be more daring - the video game industry, despite all of the latest improvements in hardware, is stuck in a bit of a creative rut right now.

 

[jazzeum]

CS,

Funny you mention Pacific Assault. That was the only game I could beat! My son said it couldn't be too good if I could beat it.

Another good point about doing a game from the other side's point of view. I've always wondered how these games could appeal to Germans if the goal is to kill Germans. Sometimes when you're in another person's shoes, you understand how they feel. That's probably that would benefit everbody and I'm not just talking about videogames.

 

[Canadian Samurai]

Well in Pacific Assault as you know you have the medic to help revive you (very cool innovation), and after he's done puking on you after seeing the wound he can patch you up a few times per level, but other than that I remember Pacific Assault as being just as hard as any of the other ones I've played. I remember having to go back to my saves multiple times after getting killed (I don't remember what difficulty setting I was on - probably normal). The Japanese just keep coming at you! So tell your son he ought to try it - I love the lush jungle environments and chance to operate weaponry different from the European theatre. Also tell your son I think it's a testament to your proficiency as a gamer that you beat that game!

The latest Medal of Honor comes out next week I think and it is, you guessed it, about U.S. airborne AGAIN . But the innovation this time is you can control where in the battlefield you land which supposedly makes the missions much less linear. For a while the historical accuracy of the MoH series was slipping compared to Call of Duty and Brothers in Arms but I think the very realistic graphics of the latest games are forcing the developers to do their homework on uniforms etc. because it's obvious if they fudge it. Though in one of the advertisements for this new MoH they show a Tiger I at Utah beach which is fantasy.

Also, in terms of your other point, I agree that shooting people is the main attraction of these games rather than history. However, I know some young people have sought out the 1/6th action figure hobby thanks to the games. Also, even if the games begin to die off due to over-saturation, the memories of playing them will live on in the minds of people as they grow older. Myself and a few others excluded, I think the majority of people get into the toy soldier hobby when they're in their mid-30s or later (the perception is that it's an older person hobby), so give it another 10-15 years and the kids who were playing games today may grow up to become a whole new market segment. Certainly, thanks to the games many young people are more familiar with most of the major weapons of the combatants in WWII, and many of the famous battles, moreso than people who are now fueling this hobby were when they were in their teens or twenties. I just wish that more games other than WWII were made because otherwise there may not be much of a market for WW1 or Napoleonics or Zulus etc. in the future.

Lastly, I agree it would be interesting to talk to someone from Germany what they think about playing these. I think I've read they sell decently over there so they probably just grin and try not to think too hard about it. Most modern Germans also have no love for the Nazi regime. In Japan they don't like any 1st person shooting games let alone ones where they're the enemy. The other thing is that most of these let you play as nameless Axis soldiers in the multiplayer - it's just in the single player campaign/story mode you're never ever allowed to identify with the Axis (we're not supposed to think of them as human beings after all!). However in Brothers in Arms Earned in Blood you can direct a German squad in single player skirmish mode - but again not in story mode.

 

[Bob]

Re:Crete - the real hero

Perhaps the real hero of Crete was Admiral Cunningham - someone we havent mentioned in these discussions.

As British infantry prepared to evacuate the Admiral gave orders for his ships to move to the harbour to pick up infantry. There was no air support, and the ships would be under constant fire from the enemy's artillery as well as air attack. When the orders were given to the fleet commanders there were protests. The losses, in ships and Navy personnel were going to be too heavy, and would not be justified by bringing away infantrymen without their equipment.

But the commander Admiral Sir Andrew Cunningham told his officers: "It takes the Navy three years to build a ship, it would take three hundred to rebuild a tradition".

So on the 28th May for three days ships of the Royal Navy collected and ferried allied infantry to safety. The cost to the Senior Service was high - three Cruisers and six Destroyers were lost and another seventeen destroyers were badly damaged. Two Battleships, two Cruisers, two Destroyers and the only aircraft carrier in the fleet were so badly damaged that they were beyond local repair. Apart from the loss of ships there was loss of Royal Navy Matelots. When the operation was over the Royal Navy had lost control of the Agean Sea.

But Cunningham had lived up to the traditions of the Royal Navy, allowing neither political nor strategic considerations to stop him from doing what was necessary. He had known the Navy is more than the sum total of ships and ships' crews.

He had mentioned three centuries, which would take us back to Blake – the man who succeeded at Cadiz where Nelson failed. Blake laid the foundations of British sea power, winning the decisive battles with Dutch.

A generation before the greatest sea battle in British naval history had been fought. The small English ship “The Revenge” with half her crew sick took on the might of the Spanish fleet and fought against 53 warships – because her commander would not leave his sailors on shore.

For many Crete was a disaster and a fiasco – for the Navy it was one more example of a heroic tradition stretching backwards to its founder Alfred the Great.