Antony Beevor Crete (2 Viewers)

[Harrytheheid]

This is the last post i,ll make on this ,but to imply a massacre is
complete bollucks .The New Zealand division was surounded outnumbered and escaping in the middle of the night they didnt hang around to round to
round up wounded and slaughter them vis a vis a massacre.
I dont mind informed debate ,but their is no evedince to support the
claims of a massacre and I have spoken to vets and read numerous
accounts of this action.

Vandilay,
No-one to my knowledge is implying negatives or trashing the contribution of the Kiwis (or any other Allied nation) towards the war effort. If wounded soldiers were caught up in the action, then harsh as it sounds, tough titty for them. I would suggest that massacres of wounded enemies did take place, but such occurences involving Allied troops was much less frequent than incidents involving Axis forces. Examples = Massacres of British troops during the retreat to Dunkirk. Massacres of Canadians during Normandy. Massacres of Americans during B of the B.
I don't condone massacres of Axis troops in any way, but anyone who trashes Allied actions during WW2 (Bombing of Germany, A-Bombing of Japan, etc) is looking through rose-tinted specs - with the benefit of hindsight. And of course, applying present day values to what at the time was a DESPERATE struggle against a new type of Barbarity - Nazism.

 

[Rob]

This is the last post i,ll make on this ,but to imply a massacre is
complete bollucks .The New Zealand division was surounded outnumbered and escaping in the middle of the night they didnt hang around to round to
round up wounded and slaughter them vis a vis a massacre.
I dont mind informed debate ,but their is no evedince to support the
claims of a massacre and I have spoken to vets and read numerous
accounts of this action.

If you can't read a post that someone put up merely as example of what they are reading without throwing a childish hissy fit and using obscenities then i suggest you get lost matey,your input is not required.Also you weren't there were you?.There is also a possibillity of 'they would say that wouldn't they'.Still your outburst shows you can't indulge in a proper debate so off you go.

Yes Harry its a superb book.The US involevement at Arnhem has been terribly overlooked,that river crossing under MG and Mortar fire was an incredible act of bravery.

Rob

 

[Rob]

Vandilay,
No-one to my knowledge is implying negatives or trashing the contribution of the Kiwis (or any other Allied nation) towards the war effort. If wounded soldiers were caught up in the action, then harsh as it sounds, tough titty for them. I would suggest that massacres of wounded enemies did take place, but such occurences involving Allied troops was much less frequent than incidents involving Axis forces. Examples = Massacres of British troops during the retreat to Dunkirk. Massacres of Canadians during Normandy. Massacres of Americans during B of the B.
I don't condone massacres of Axis troops in any way, but anyone who trashes Allied actions during WW2 (Bombing of Germany, A-Bombing of Japan, etc) is looking through rose-tinted specs - with the benefit of hindsight. And of course, applying present day values to what at the time was a DESPERATE struggle against a new type of Barbarity - Nazism.

Absolutely Harry,it took place on both sides but on a vastly bigger scale on the Nazi side of course.What a pity we can't hold a discussion without having someone go ballistic for no good reason.

Rob

 

[vandilay]

maybe the secound to last post
Rob If you feel someone even slights England you
chuck your toys out of the sand box .
You read one mans opinion and accuse my country of dealing out
massacres.
Back it up with a little solid evidence because they are big
accusations you make whether yours or someone you have read.

 

[Harrytheheid]

maybe the secound to last post
Rob If you feel someone even slights England you
chuck your toys out of the sand box .
You read one mans opinion and accuse my country of dealing out
massacres.
Back it up with a little solid evidence because they are big
accusations you make whether yours or someone you have read.

Whao Bettsy......
Vandilay and Rob......Please let's knock this one one the head right now.
While we are all proud of our individual country's efforts in WW2 (UK, USA, S. Africa, N. Zealand, Oz, China, Soviet Russia, France, etc. apologies to those I've left out but I don't have all day, or the memory,to list you all).
I don't think anyone can deny that atrocities took place on both sides. As I've stated previously, no-one is above being carried forward by events and its human nature to perhaps be involved in events that are better left alone.
All Rob was doing was discussing a book he's reading. We can all agree or disagree - that's our privilege - but its a privilege bought by the sacrifice of ALL the country's involved in the ALLIED effort during WW2.

 

[Rob]

Whao Bettsy......
Vandilay and Rob......Please let's knock this one one the head right now.
While we are all proud of our individual country's efforts in WW2 (UK, USA, S. Africa, N. Zealand, Oz, China, Soviet Russia, France, etc. apologies to those I've left out but I don't have all day, or the memory,to list you all).
I don't think anyone can deny that atrocities took place on both sides. As I've stated previously, no-one is above being carried forward by events and its human nature to perhaps be involved in events that are better left alone.
All Rob was doing was discussing a book he's reading. We can all agree or disagree - that's our privilege - but its a privilege bought by the sacrifice of ALL the country's involved in the ALLIED effort during WW2.

Yes i agree Harry well put.Vandilay i apologise if i offended you it was not my intention.I was merely talking about a book i'm enjoying.

Rob

 

[Louis Badolato]

Whao Bettsy......
Vandilay and Rob......Please let's knock this one one the head right now.
While we are all proud of our individual country's efforts in WW2 (UK, USA, S. Africa, N. Zealand, Oz, China, Soviet Russia, France, etc. apologies to those I've left out but I don't have all day, or the memory,to list you all).
I don't think anyone can deny that atrocities took place on both sides. As I've stated previously, no-one is above being carried forward by events and its human nature to perhaps be involved in events that are better left alone.
All Rob was doing was discussing a book he's reading. We can all agree or disagree - that's our privilege - but its a privilege bought by the sacrifice of ALL the country's involved in the ALLIED effort during WW2.

I think Harry has hit the nail right on the head. And in further defense of the courageous Kiwi's contribution (and in no way a slight of the magnificent British contribution) I would like to point out that the Long Range Desert Group not only heroically marched hundreds of miles to save their own lives when their vehicles were knocked out, when their vehicles were functional they often brought back wounded German POW's who otherwise would have died in the desert. The sad truth is that sometimes in the "fog and confusion of war" (in this instance add darkness) non-combatants are mistaken for combatants. Further, if your mates had just been killed or badly wounded by a burst of machine gun fire from an area of the battlefield, you might also shoot first and ask questions later for those individuals wearing enemy uniforms at the location where the fire originated. I take the position that, as I have never heard a shot fired in anger, I will not try to judge those who have. I leave that to a court marshall, the closest thing a combat soldier is likely to get to a jury of his peers. If the explanation offered by the New Zealand general satisfied Rommel, it is likely going to be good enough for me.

 

[Rob]

I've apologised to Vandilay if i caused offence.I do not know the exact truth maybe no one ever will,but perhaps we should leave it there now.I was just trying to share my enjoyment of a book,don't worry i shan't do it again.

Rob

 

[Louis Badolato]

Rob,

Please allow me to appologize! I certainly don't want to discourage you from expressing your viewpoints or your enjoyment of what sounds like an excellent book. I think what makes this forum great is the diversity of opinions and backgrounds. Kevin and I had a fun discussion of Monty, and you know what, I appreciated him more militarily as a result, and I got Kevin to admit he was a world class wanker, so maybe we both expanded our horizons as a result. So don't be afraid to express your opinions and insights, I for one won't hold it against you! And I suspect none of the other guys will either.

 

[Harrytheheid]

Rob,

Please allow me to appologize! I certainly don't want to discourage you from expressing your viewpoints or your enjoyment of what sounds like an excellent book. I think what makes this forum great is the diversity of opinions and backgrounds. Kevin and I had a fun discussion of Monty, and you know what, I appreciated him more militarily as a result, and I got Kevin to admit he was a world class wanker, so maybe we both expanded our horizons as a result. So don't be afraid to express your opinions and insights, I for one won't hold it against you! And I suspect none of the other guys will either.

?
Okay so, who's the world class wanker? Kevin or Monty?

 

[Eazy]

?
Okay so, who's the world class wanker? Kevin or Monty?

LOL LOL LOL

Is it an Olympic Event now?

Do you need special training to become World Class at it?

Where do you sign up?

 

[Harrytheheid]

LOL LOL LOL

Is it an Olympic Event now?
Do you need special training to become World Class at it?

Where do you sign up?

You need foearms like Popeye....otherwise forget it...!!! Only kidding.

 

[Louis Badolato]

?
Okay so, who's the world class wanker? Kevin or Monty?

Both! Just kidding, Kevin admitted Monty was a world class wanker!

 

[Harrytheheid]

Both! Just kidding, Kevin admitted Monty was a world class wanker!

Louis,
I assume we're referring to Monty's Flying Circus here and not the World Famous Field Marshall,,,,,,don't want to have take you to the woodshed, coalshed, bikeshed, etc. Y'Hear......??

 

[Louis Badolato]

Kevin and I agreed that Monty was a competent general but was a complete wanker who aliented everyone, including his own fellow British officers. That's quite a concession on my part considering my former opinions of Monty.

 

[Harrytheheid]

Kevin and I agreed that Monty was a competent general but was a complete wanker who aliented everyone, including his own fellow British officers. That's quite a concession on my part considering my former opinions of Monty.

Actually....You're probably right about the CG.....and also the CW as well!! Maybe you have to be a CW to be a CG?

 

[Louis Badolato]

Actually....You're probably right about the CG.....and also the CW as well!! Maybe you have to be a CW to be a CG?

I don't think so Harry. The best general of the whole war for my money was Bill Slim of the 14th (Forgotten) Army in Burma. By all accounts he was a wonderful man as well as a great general.

 

[Harrytheheid]

I don't think so Harry. The best general of the whole war for my money was Bill Slim of the 14th (Forgotten) Army in Burma. By all accounts he was a wonderful man as well as a great general.

Louis,

You have astounded me...!!! Yes, AGREED, gnl Slim was #1.

 

[Rob]

Rob,

Please allow me to appologize! I certainly don't want to discourage you from expressing your viewpoints or your enjoyment of what sounds like an excellent book. I think what makes this forum great is the diversity of opinions and backgrounds. Kevin and I had a fun discussion of Monty, and you know what, I appreciated him more militarily as a result, and I got Kevin to admit he was a world class wanker, so maybe we both expanded our horizons as a result. So don't be afraid to express your opinions and insights, I for one won't hold it against you! And I suspect none of the other guys will either.

No apology needed mate.

However this whole thing has made me stop and consider the forum a bit and my participation in it.I think it is a real shame you can't just post an innocent post without being shouted down and lambasted.I'm thinking maybe i have spent too long on here and obviously P*** people off.

Rob

 

[OzDigger]

No apology needed mate.

However this whole thing has made me stop and consider the forum a bit and my participation in it.I think it is a real shame you can't just post an innocent post without being shouted down and lambasted.I'm thinking maybe i have spent too long on here and obviously P*** people off.

Rob

I p**s people off everyday, but I find they get used to it after a while

Seriously though, there's no harm done so let's move on. Perhaps the NZ troops did stabbed a few people that they wouldn't have in daylight. But when soldiers are hyped up and making a run for it in pitch dark then anyone could cop it.

Another thing we should remember is that authors usually have a strong bias towards the controversial side of any event, which may or may not be the correct version.