Any one know (1 Viewer)

[OzDigger]

Oz,

Just a couple of points:

The British were very busy dealing with Ron's friend Napoleon, so they didn't really want to focus on the War with the fledgling U.S. The Canadians (as well as their version of Field Marshall Winter) easily defeated our poorly conceived and executed invasion of Canada, and the British made a successful attack on our capital, which was defended only by poorly trained militia. However, they learned a very shocking lesson when they attempted to engage our new Constitution class Frigates with their older, lighter gunned Frigates. In all but one one on one encounters, the British Navy suffered extremely unacceptable defeats at the hands of our better designed ships (Teddy Roosevelt actually first made his name by writing an extremely well detailed book on these encounters entitled "The Naval War of 1812" - an excellent naval treatise if you can overlook the racial superiority theories inherent in its conclusions). As a result of their preoccupation with the French, and a need to avoid further bad publicity from naval encounters (the Admirilaty actually ordered British Frigates never to engage American Frigates without a 2 to 1 advantage in numbers), the British government negotiated generous peace terms with our envoys, meeting all our initial concerns about impressing seamen, etc. Sadly for all involved, news of the peace treaty had not reached the United States prior to the British attempt to invade New Orleans. As a result of extremely poor British generalship (Pakenham paid for his incompetence with his life) the British suffered what Wellington described as the worst debacle in British military history, and the fledgling Sutherland Highlanders, in their first battle, suffered better then 50% casualties. I don't know anything about a later surrender in Canada (history classes here in the United States generally completely ignore our losses or screw ups), but I would characterize the war as a draw: we got our butts kicked in attempting to invade Canada and the British burned our capital, but our Navy won all but one major engagement with the far larger and more experienced British Navy, and the biggest single engagement of the war at New Orleans might have been the worst defeat in British military history, at least until General Elphinstone got his entire army slaughtered retreating from Afghanistan.

From the limited refs I have read on this war it seems most of the problems and indeed the myths that arose from this war were due to poor communications of the day.

For example I've read that Britain agreed not to impress sailors some time before the Battle of New Orleans. However as the terms came to the notice of the Americans shortly after that battle I guess most Americans believed that battle made the difference, when it was in fact well after the fact. Here's some info on the subsequent Battle of Fort Bowyer (Alabama) - where I mentioned the American troops surrendered the fort: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Fort_Bowyer

In the defence of the Brit Navy I should mention that the "Frigate Battles" was hardly a fair match of war ships as the American frigates were in effect a class or more above the Brit frigate size, and I believe the crews on the British vessels weren't the best available men.

But as you say both parties seemed satisfied with the result and a draw seems a fair conclusion. Btw I know my Grandfather never considered Gallipoli a loss as HE left in his own time and wasn't being forced off by the Turks, of course Turkish history may say something different

 

[Bob Neville]

The Constitution class frigates (which were of two different but similar Joshua Humphrey's designs), did very well, as Louis pointed out. The only loss was the Chesapeake, due to some critically poor judgement calls on the part of James Lawrence (who became a martyr, coining the phrase, "Don't give up the ship!").

Guy's for you information we still have most of the Chesapeake as it's timbers were used to build a Mill in Southern England.....indeed we were going to use it as KC UK HQ as it is almost next door to the 'Neville' household!

Check out http://www.chesapeakemill.co.uk/history.htm

In 1813 there was a naval encounter between USS Chesapeake and HMS Shannon outside Boston Harbour. Both mounted 38 guns. Chesapeake was captured and sent first to Halifax and then on to England where she was added to the Royal Navy by Admiralty order on the 10 November 1814.

She was eventually sold out of service on 18 August 1819 to Mr Joshua Holmes for £3450 and he advertised the sale of timbers from the ship in the Hampshire Telegraph on the 15 November 1819 and in the Telegraph and Sussex Chronicle on the 17 April and the 14 August 1820. It was in 1820 that John Prior, miller of Wickham and grandson of Thomas Prior, demolished his old mill and purchased part of the ship’s timbers, which he used for erecting the present building. The deck beams, which are 32 foot long, and 18” square were used to support the floors. Many of the timbers bear the marks of the Shannon’s grape shot. A stone plaque on the front of the mill records the building of the new mill –
“Erected 1820 AD I Prior”.

So thanks alot for the wood; much appreciated!

 

[Louis Badolato]

Again, it's too bad we couldn't get Canada. We will one day...

Wait a minute Tex . . . when I lived in Texas it was pretty clear that Texans didn't want to annex Canada, they wanted the rest of Mexico!

 

[Harrytheheid]

I suppose the most famous song about that conflict must be " The Star Spangle Banner" It is one of those national anthems along with God Save the Queen which even though I am not American gives me goosebumps when I hear it.

Regards
Damian Clarke

Damian,
I'm amazed - even gobsmacked.
"God Save the Queen" gives you goosebumps??? Surely you jest and are referring to the Sex Pistols? The original is an awful song. As Billy Connolly said, "The 4th Verse:- Rebellious Scots Tae Crush?" Of course, this verse refers to the Jacobites, but it does give us something else to moan about and gently wind up the English (again).
This is where the classic split-personality cuts in, cos although I'm inordinately proud that I'm British - I'm also Scottish....and very occasionally, the two just don't jive.
For a pure piss-take on the British National Anthem, check out the YouTube link below...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odNNgEn5l6s

WARNING:- Billy Connolly is not for the faint-hearted, politically correct, or easily offended.

 

[Louis Badolato]

The only national anthem which really gives me goosebumps is Les Marsaillies. Its such a moving anthem, I always wonder how the French aren't more fired up in battle. I've always thought the Battle Hymn of the Republic would be a way more powerfull national anthem than the Star Spangled Banner (which nobody can sing correctly - have you ever tried to hit the high note).

 

[Harrytheheid]

the Star Spangled Banner (which nobody can sing correctly - have you ever tried to hit the high note).

Eeeeerm, nope....

 

[Tex]

Wait a minute Tex . . . when I lived in Texas it was pretty clear that Texans didn't want to annex Canada, they wanted the rest of Mexico!

Recall that I am originally from the east. But at any rate, we Texans are by nature expansionist--why not Canada? They speak like us, look like us, eat like us, and their navy even operates as components of US Carrier Battle Groups when we need them.
Only a matter of time...

 

[OzDigger]

Recall that I am originally from the east. But at any rate, we Texans are by nature expansionist--why not Canada? They speak like us, look like us, eat like us, and their navy even operates as components of US Carrier Battle Groups when we need them.
Only a matter of time...

Hey, all that could equally be applied to us Aussies. Wait a minute, my wife's cousin moved to Texas (College Station) years ago, is this some kind of Texan plot? Us Aussies want to retain our own unique looks, food and language. Y'll give him back..........omg it's to late

 

[damian]

There is something about national anthems. At the risk of being shot by Ozz, I don't like Advance Australia Fair. The Aussies should have made Waltzing Matilda their national anthem proper as it is really good. It was Banjo Paterson who wrote that (hope I got that right) and he liek Breaker Morant were in SA during the Boer War. I don't think he shot any Boers though he was a reporter. They normally leave out old General Wade and the rebellious Scots bit. Still the Sex Pistols version was really good. I agree Loius The battle hym of the rebublic is also moving and powerful.

 

[OzDigger]

There is something about national anthems. At the risk of being shot by Ozz, I don't like Advance Australia Fair. The Aussies should have made Waltzing Matilda their national anthem proper as it is really good. It was Banjo Paterson who wrote that (hope I got that right) and he liek Breaker Morant were in SA during the Boer War. I don't think he shot any Boers though he was a reporter. They normally leave out old General Wade and the rebellious Scots bit. Still the Sex Pistols version was really good. I agree Loius The battle hym of the rebublic is also moving and powerful.

I don't know how someone from South Africa could have the hide to be critical of other countries - but there you have it

 

[damian]

Come on Ozz
Waltzing Matilda is distinctly Aussie. It has spirit and it has meaning. It is a moving experience to hear that being played and sung at sporting events. Advance Australia fair is not the same.
Ps I don't see what is critical in that and I don't see why I can't be critical if I wanted to.
Regards
Damian

 

[damian]

Just to show that I am not being critical, here is a link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advance_Australia_Fair
It is Wikipaedia and I apologise to all the scholars on the forum for that but it documents the story of the Australian national anthem. There was a choice between the current one and Waltzing Matilda back in 1984. As 25 % of Australia thought Waltizing Matilda was better than Advance Austarlia fair then I feel that I as a lowly outsider can perhaps also dare to have an opinion about this.

Regards
Damian

 

[damian]

I am sorry to keep on about this but I afraid that last post has annoyed me a bit. I would just like to state in public that I admire Australia very much. I admire the fact that the Aussies call everyone mate and not sir, that their sporting teams always excel, never give up even when they are down and often pull amazing wins out of the hat. I have worked with many Aussies and I think they are a great bunch. I just think Waltzing Matilda encapsulates their can do down to earth spirit more than any other anthem. I am not Australian but I admire the palce and what it stands for. I love my own country more but I still like the Aussies. I am going to keep quite from now.

Regards
Damian

 

[Harrytheheid]

I am sorry to keep on about this but I afraid that last post has annoyed me a bit. I would just like to state in public that I admire Australia very much. I admire the fact that the Aussies call everyone mate and not sir, that their sporting teams always excel, never give up even when they are down and often pull amazing wins out of the hat. I have worked with many Aussies and I think they are a great bunch. I just think Waltzing Matilda encapsulates their can do down to earth spirit more than any other anthem. I am not Australian but I admire the palce and what it stands for. I love my own country more but I still like the Aussies. I am going to keep quite from now.

Regards
Damian

Come on Damian, loosen up a bit man.
I'm pretty sure Oz was kinda speaking tongue in cheek - as was I about the dismal British National Anthem. Besides, I think National Anthems are a wee bit of a non-event in the "getting pissed off stakes". Lets have a go at the curse of the political correctness that permeats our societies these days instead.
Best Regards
H

 

[OzDigger]

On the contrary Harry (and Damian), I am VERY pissed off about Damian's post. Imo, there are some things you just don't criticize, and national anthems are one of them

 

[Harrytheheid]

On the contrary Harry (and Damian), I am VERY pissed off about Damian's post. Imo, there are some things you just don't criticize, and national anthems are one of them

Hmmm, Of course you're entitled to your opinion Oz and if you want to be mad, then its your perogative to go ahead.
No offense meant but I just find it a wee bit over the top given the piss-take I made of our national anthem, "God Save The Queen". I guess we all have different "Hot Buttons", (and I know what mine are).

Best Regards
H

 

[damian]

Well it is better to be p...d off than p....d on
Regards
Damian

 

[Tex]

Hey, all that could equally be applied to us Aussies.

Not quite--you folks have a distinct accent. Canadians don't even have that! Plus you eat vegimite. But, hey, if you want to be annexed, I have no problem! The more the merrier! I think most Americans recognize in Australia a kindred spirit. Maybe we can get it up to 70 states...we'd run out of room for stars on the flag, though...
And yes, it is a Texan conspiracy--we run the US. fully 10% of the US's military men and women come from Texas, and under our treaty of annexation, we retain the federally recognized right to cecede whenever we want. (of course, if that happened, I'd move back to Virginia.)

As far as National Anthems, I like the Star Spangled Banner, but I think the Battle Cry of Freedom or Battle Hymn of the Republic would have been livelier (the Star Spangled Banner is based on an English drinking song, as someone pointed out, I think). And to be honest, I do like Waltzing Matilda. Of course, when Australia joins the Union, you'll have to adopt the Star Spangled Banner

 

[damian]

http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/WM/Anthem.html

 

[Tex]

Just to make sure, you are all aware that we sing "God Save the Queen" in the US, except we replaced the lyrics with American things and changed the title to "My Country 'Tis of Thee." When I was a little kid, I thought the British stole our song for their anthem!