Battle of Britain (1 Viewer)

Guy's
Just spent a chunk of time with some Harrier Pilots which was great....did you know that you could fill a Harrier up for around 1800 Pounds Sterling and get around 1000 miles out of the tank?!? How cheap is that! Mind you have to buy one and maintain it but hey we could all club together!
Any way have a look at the films below, you WILL love them without question talk about low fly past!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPKrgDsITx4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wpq4Tu2NnrQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMEgp_tGDw4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_CaOmKUztY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Ziqo0XE8GA

And my all time favourite......
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVICix2F4t8

Cheers
Bob

As you probably know (because your father sold a few), K&C made a Harrier Jump Jet in both British (I'm not sure if it was RAF from Desert Storm or Royal Navy Fleet Air Arm from the Falkland Conflict) and U.S. Marine markings from the the First Gulf War (Desert Storm). I always wanted a K&C Harrier, but as yet have not been able to find one.

Speaking of K&C jet fighters, I have a Gulf War F14 Tomcat (which I purchased from a Scottish gentleman who original bought it from your dad)and a West German Navy F104 Starfighter (which I purchased directly from your dad). Next week I expect to take delivery of a K&C F86 Sabre Jet in Korean War markings. Thus, counting my ME262 Swallow, I will have four K&C jets. I also have the K&C jet fighter pilot produced in 1991.

Now if I could just find an F4 Phantom and a MIG-21 for my Vietnam stuff, and a MIG-15 to go up against my Sabre jet, and an F15 Eagle for the Gulf War . . . (I could go on for a while)
 
Guy's
Just spent a chunk of time with some Harrier Pilots which was great....did you know that you could fill a Harrier up for around 1800 Pounds Sterling and get around 1000 miles out of the tank?!? How cheap is that! Mind you have to buy one and maintain it but hey we could all club together!
Any way have a look at the films below, you WILL love them without question talk about low fly past!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPKrgDsITx4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wpq4Tu2NnrQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMEgp_tGDw4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_CaOmKUztY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Ziqo0XE8GA

And my all time favourite......
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVICix2F4t8

Cheers
Bob

I LOVE the Spitfire and the reporter one. I've seen it before but it never fails to impress/amuse me.

The low Mustang pass reminds me of when I was doing WW2 battle reenacting in 1978. We had an Air Force officer with his P51, "Gunfighter", do a few low passes over us. A column of "WW2 GIs" hiking through rural Nebraska to make contact with the "Germans" and a real P51 flying so low that he had to pull up to clear power lines. Wow!

Gary
 
I'm not an expert on the B of B, but isn't it one of the enduring myths that the RAF was greatly outnumbered by the Luftwaffe? The forces being more or less equal and the Brits having any number of tactical advantages in fighting over their own airspace (fuel/flight time, recovery of downed pilots, radar). They certainly showed a lot of pluck but were never in any real danger of being overwhelmed - similar to the results of the U-boat war which have been greatly overestimated. Both dangers being overstated by Churchill in order to encourage the US to enter the war in 1940.

Hi Combat,

There were several occasions during the Battle of Britain when Fighter Command was almost brought to its knees. The Luftwaffe deployed around 2600 fighters and bombers at the beginning of the Battle, the RAF had around 650 fighters. Don't forget that most of the German pilots had combat experience. Spain, Poland, The Low Countries and France, whereas the RAF boys were mostly starting cold. Aircraft production could keep up with the losses, but it was the loss of pilots that was a crucial factor for Fighter Command.
From all I've read since I was a child, the film accurately depicted the Luftwaffe blitz on London as one of the turning points of the Battle as this led to vastly reduced attacks on the forward airfields which had taken a pounding up to this stage.
Churchill may have had his agenda's, but please, let us take nothing away from the sacrifice of the boys (cos that's what most of them were) of several nations, including the USA, who saved Great Britain in her darkest hour during the summer and early autumn of 1940.

Best Regards
 
Hi Combat,

There were several occasions during the Battle of Britain when Fighter Command was almost brought to its knees. The Luftwaffe deployed around 2600 fighters and bombers at the beginning of the Battle, the RAF had around 650 fighters. Don't forget that most of the German pilots had combat experience. Spain, Poland, The Low Countries and France, whereas the RAF boys were mostly starting cold. Aircraft production could keep up with the losses, but it was the loss of pilots that was a crucial factor for Fighter Command.
From all I've read since I was a child, the film accurately depicted the Luftwaffe blitz on London as one of the turning points of the Battle as this led to vastly reduced attacks on the forward airfields which had taken a pounding up to this stage.
Churchill may have had his agenda's, but please, let us take nothing away from the sacrifice of the boys (cos that's what most of them were) of several nations, including the USA, who saved Great Britain in her darkest hour during the summer and early autumn of 1940.

Best Regards

Harry. I think that you summed that up very nicely.

Regards

Jeff
 
Geoofrey Wellum's book entitled FIRST LIGHT is the most honest account from a pilot that I have read other than Gann's Fate is the Hunter. If you really want to know about the B.O.B. and how some of these gents (boys) were thrown into action with just basic rote flying skills whilst trying to survive all while being shot at too, then please read it. I trust you will enjoy it and appreciate it as much as I did.

Tally Ho,
Beaufighter
 

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Geoofrey Wellum's book entitled FIRST LIGHT is the most honest account from a pilot that I have read other than Gann's Fate is the Hunter. If you really want to know about the B.O.B. and how some of these gents (boys) were thrown into action with just basic rote flying skills whilst trying to survive all while being shot at too, then please read it. I trust you will enjoy it and appreciate it as much as I did.

Tally Ho,
Beaufighter

Yep i have this book,very good indeed:)

Rob
 
Numerical comparisons like 2600 vs 650 alone are inconclusive and somewhat misleading of the relative strengths of the Luftwaffe and RAF (and why not include the Brit bombers?). The German bombers were often unescorted, designed for short range tactical ground support and made easy targets for RAF fighters. Add in Brit air defenses, short combat availability of German fighters over the UK (20 minutes for the ME109!!), and the fact that every downed German was a POW while the RAF pilots could often be returned to combat and all the tactical advantages of the battle were on the side of the RAF. The short term fuel capacity of the German fighters alone was probably fatal to a longer range air campaign mission.

My point is not to denigrate the RAF which had its hands full, but just to point out that this was not the david and goliath struggle typically perceived even today as a result of the wartime propaganda of Churchill. It is almost impossible, however, to dissuade anyone of this perception since they have seen it in countless movies and documentaries and most importantly - want it to be true. It makes a rousing tale as Churchill intended. Rather it was a fairly even match with numbers and experience slightly to the advantage of the Germans and many important tactical advantages to the Brits.
 
Doug,

I wouldn't disagree with the points you made. You are of course right, in so much that there were many tactical advantages, which ultimately saved the day for Britain. I would argue that it wasn't necessarily the skill of the RAF pilots that won the battle, because, as you rightly point out, the Luftwaffe fighter time over Britain was severely limited and losing 1 RAF fighter for every 2 Luftwaffe planes (predominantly bombers) isn't a brilliant tally.

I personally think the hype behind the battle was that there was so much at stake. Britain's back was well and truely to the wall and the Channel / RAF was realistically all that was going to save the country from probable invasion. If the air war had continued and Britain had run out of a) pilots or b) aircraft, then the outcome of the war might have been very different. I think that is why the aircraft numbers comparison appears so highly in discussions on the subject.

Simon
 
Does anyone remember Operation Sealion? For obvious reasons the Germans had to eliminate the RAF in order to launch such a campaign. As for the B.O.B. which I believe staved off Operation Sealion, the RAF had obvious tactical advantages but the Germans without a doubt had far superior numbers & aircrew to conduct round the clock sorties to in effect eliminate the RAF alltogether. A Luftwaffe bomber and or fighter crew in the early days might fly daily missions or less as opposed to RAF crews flying multiple sorties and often times landing, being refitted and airborne again. They were exhausted in all aspects. Their defense was brilliant in that respect as well as being outgunned & outnumbered. Please also keep in mind that although a splendid aircraft, the Hawker Hurricane was at a disadvantage in combat. Enough of my rambling.

Tally Ho,
Beaufighter
 
Beaufighter is quite right. The Battle of Britain clearly prevented the invasion of England. The Germans couldn't mount a successful invasion without clear air superiority. Even if the managed to start across, it's hard to imagine the Royal Navy letting an invasion happen without getting desperate enough to sacrifice a couple battleships to stop them. Even the older British BBs would have been devestating to an invading armada, but they wouldn't last against hordes of Stukas and medium bombers. No air superiority = no chance of getting a sustainable invasion force across the channel. not keeping up the pressure on RAF's Fighter Command and its facilities = no air superiority. So we are (mostly) reading this forum in English instead of German. THANK YOU to the RAF!

Gary
 
Whatever you (or we) might wish to say or debate, nothing can detract from nor can any book, speech or writing express it better than

"never in the field of human conflict was so much owed by so many to so few."

Case closed.
 
Whatever you (or we) might wish to say or debate, nothing can detract from nor can any book, speech or writing express it better than

"never in the field of human conflict was so much owed by so many to so few."

Brad-thank you! I should have posted that quote earlier as it is clearly displayed on my desk. Well done.

Tally Ho,
Beaufighter
 
Marc,

I couldn't remember the quote word for word so I looked it up on the web and came across this site, which looks interesting, The Churchill Centre.
 
Numerical comparisons like 2600 vs 650 alone are inconclusive and somewhat misleading of the relative strengths of the Luftwaffe and RAF (and why not include the Brit bombers?).

Brit bombers available at the time such as the Bristol Blenheim, Fairey Battle, Vickers Wellesley, Armstrong Whitworth Whitley, Handley Page Hampden, to mention a few, are not included because they were largely irrelevant to the conflict. It was exclusively Fighter Command versus The Luftwaffe.
Reference the interesting link below.

http://www.century-of-flight.net/new site/add_ons/frames/battle_of_britain.htm
 
Brit bombers available at the time such as the Bristol Blenheim, Fairey Battle, Vickers Wellesley, Armstrong Whitworth Whitley, Handley Page Hampden, to mention a few, are not included because they were largely irrelevant to the conflict. It was exclusively Fighter Command versus The Luftwaffe.
Reference the interesting link below.

http://www.century-of-flight.net/new site/add_ons/frames/battle_of_britain.htm

"H"

I read over those list of aircraft you mentioned pretending that I had to fly one of them in combat and finally chose the Bristol Blenheim as I figure my survival rate might be a few % points higher & because I am a little partial to the Bristol family. The thought of flying the Fairey Battle simply scares me especially though although that list consists mainly-scratch that-entirely of outdated rubbish.

Tally Ho,
Beaufighter
 
"H"

I read over those list of aircraft you mentioned pretending that I had to fly one of them in combat and finally chose the Bristol Blenheim as I figure my survival rate might be a few % points higher & because I am a little partial to the Bristol family. The thought of flying the Fairey Battle simply scares me especially though although that list consists mainly-scratch that-entirely of outdated rubbish.

Tally Ho,
Beaufighter

Hmmmm.....I wouldn't have fancied flying the Hampden cos it was consistantly mis-identified as the Do-17.
The list I provided was just what sprung immediately to mind as to what outdated rubbish Bomber Command had available in 1940. I didn't include the Avro Anson, Handley Page Harrow or Bristol Bombay for obvious reasons. The Fairey Battle was the most terrifying of the lot......One forward firing mg and one in the rear cockpit for defence....?????? :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:
 
As you probably know (because your father sold a few), K&C made a Harrier Jump Jet in both British (I'm not sure if it was RAF from Desert Storm or Royal Navy Fleet Air Arm from the Falkland Conflict) and U.S. Marine markings from the the First Gulf War (Desert Storm). I always wanted a K&C Harrier, but as yet have not been able to find one.

Speaking of K&C jet fighters, I have a Gulf War F14 Tomcat (which I purchased from a Scottish gentleman who original bought it from your dad)and a West German Navy F104 Starfighter (which I purchased directly from your dad). Next week I expect to take delivery of a K&C F86 Sabre Jet in Korean War markings. Thus, counting my ME262 Swallow, I will have four K&C jets. I also have the K&C jet fighter pilot produced in 1991.

Now if I could just find an F4 Phantom and a MIG-21 for my Vietnam stuff, and a MIG-15 to go up against my Sabre jet, and an F15 Eagle for the Gulf War . . . (I could go on for a while)


....have a chat with Dad! lol
See you soon
Bob
 
Numerical comparisons like 2600 vs 650 alone are inconclusive and somewhat misleading of the relative strengths of the Luftwaffe and RAF (and why not include the Brit bombers?). The German bombers were often un-escorted, designed for short range tactical ground support and made easy targets for RAF fighters. Add in Brit air defenses, short combat availability of German fighters over the UK (20 minutes for the ME109!!), and the fact that every downed German was a POW while the RAF pilots could often be returned to combat and all the tactical advantages of the battle were on the side of the RAF. The short term fuel capacity of the German fighters alone was probably fatal to a longer range air campaign mission.

My point is not to denigrate the RAF which had its hands full, but just to point out that this was not the david and goliath struggle typically perceived even today as a result of the wartime propaganda of Churchill. It is almost impossible, however, to dissuade anyone of this perception since they have seen it in countless movies and documentaries and most importantly - want it to be true. It makes a rousing tale as Churchill intended. Rather it was a fairly even match with numbers and experience slightly to the advantage of the Germans and many important tactical advantages to the Brits.
I found this tread which had ended before I joined and since it relates to one of the areas of great interest to me and one of my favorite movies, I couldn't resist opening it again. No doubt Churchill and Britain generally employed considerable wartime propaganda, as we did, to bolster moral and encourage the aid of uncommitted nations. That does not diminish in any way the unbelievable achievement of the RAF. I think the propaganda issue is well addressed in this excerpt from the movie:

Air Vice Marshal Evill: The Air Minister, sir. on the scrambler.
Air Chief Marshall Sir Hugh Dowding: [picks up green scrambler phone] Yes?
Minister: Ah, Dowding. Er. Look. Our people in Washington are having trouble with the American Press. It's about today's figures. German sources there are saying that our claims are wildly exaggerated.
Air Chief Marshall Sir Hugh Dowding: [listens, but says nothing]
Minister: Hello? Are you there Dowding?
Air Chief Marshall Sir Hugh Dowding: I'm here Minister.
Minister: Well I mean, can you verify the figures?
Air Chief Marshall Sir Hugh Dowding: [clears throat] I'm not very interested in propaganda. If we're right, they'll give up. If we are wrong, they'll be in London in a week!.

The original sources and other material I have read would confirm the David and Goliath impression. The German advantage in aircraft was real enough and the British bombers were relatively ineffective for the circumstances. More importantly, the Luftwaffe enjoyed an even greater advantage in experienced pilots. Trust me, it is not that simple to become an effective fighter pilot. It is incredible that so many of those lads found themselves in combat with less than 20 hours in the fighters they were flying. By comparison, my Air Force training provided over 300 hours in jets with fighter comparable performance before we were considered qualified for our duty assignments; and that was spaced over nearly a year. With their numerical advantage, the Germans were able to rotate their pilots and provide them with some rest. RAF fighter command had no such luxury and all of their pilots flew many times every day of the conflict. To even survive under such circumstances, much less be effective, is simply a staggering achievement. Just ask (or read the accounts by) anyone who did. Again, another exchange from the movie provides an accurate picture of the situation:

Senior civil servant: Churchill puts great faith in radar.
Air Chief Marshall Sir Hugh Dowding: It's vital, but it won't shot down aircraft.
Senior civil servant: Ha... well I must say you don't, exactly exude a spirit of optimism.
Air Chief Marshall Sir Hugh Dowding: God willing we will hold out minister.
Senior civil servant: I see. So I tell the cabinet, that you're trusting in radar and praying to god, is that right?
Air Chief Marshall Sir Hugh Dowding: [chuckles] more accurately the other way round. Trusting in god and praying for radar. But the essential arithmetic is that our young men will have to shoot down their young men at the rate of four to one, if we're to keep pace at all.
An even more telling view is offered later in the movie by Dowding in response to bickering between Park and Mallory:

Air Chief Marshall Sir Hugh Dowding: Gentlemen you are missing the point. We don't need a big wing or a small one. We are fighting for survival. We must find more pilots or lose.

So candidly, David and Goliath is likely an understatement.;)
 

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