Battle of Britain (3 Viewers)

[Harrytheheid]

That's a sweet looking plane. Interesting that the Germans could never develop a long range strategic bomber like the B-17. A lot of hybrid fighter-bombers that were not really suited to either role. The Luftwaffe was really designed as a ground support mechanism for the army - like artillery. That's one reason they lost the battle of britain.

With all due respect, and while not disagreeing with anyone that the Luftwaffe was a tactical air-support arm of the Wermacht, I would point out quite catagorically that the Nazis lost the Battle of Britain primarily because of the courage of the RAF pilots and ground staff, who were of several nationalities including American volunteers - and who's country was still not officially part of the struggle to defeat the evils of Fascism, together with the invaluable contribution of radar, and last but by no means least, the indomitable spirit of the British People and their War-Time Prime Minister.
Phew.....

Regards
H

 

[Combat]

Re: Future and Forthcoming Warbirds

With all due respect, and while not disagreeing with anyone that the Luftwaffe was a tactical air-support arm of the Wermacht, I would point out quite catagorically that the Nazis lost the Battle of Britain primarily because of the courage of the RAF pilots and ground staff, who were of several nationalities including American volunteers - and who's country was still not officially part of the struggle to defeat the evils of Fascism, together with the invaluable contribution of radar, and last but by no means least, the indomitable spirit of the British People and their War-Time Prime Minister.
Phew.....

Regards
H

That's a fanciful notion. The RAF pilots were certainly courageous but so were the people of Poland, France and many other countries who were defeated. A bit insulting to the "spirit" of those people - perhaps they were not courageous enough. It's a matter of tactial and strategic factors that win battles. The ME 109 could only fly over England for 15 minutes! The Stuka, ME110 and JU52's were ill equipped for a longer range bombing campaign. Slow, poorly armed, small bomb loads. The Luftwaffe was not designed for that mission - one that in all probability Hitler did not believe would even be necessary.

 

[Harrytheheid]

Re: Future and Forthcoming Warbirds

That's a fanciful notion. The RAF pilots were certainly courageous but so were the people of Poland, France and many other countries who were defeated. A bit insulting to the "spirit" of those people - perhaps they were not courageous enough. It's a matter of tactial and strategic factors that win battles. The ME 109 could only fly over England for 15 minutes! The Stuka, ME110 and JU52's were ill equipped for a longer range bombing campaign. Slow, poorly armed, small bomb loads. The Luftwaffe was not designed for that mission - one that in all probability Hitler did not believe would even be necessary.

I did state that my post was written with all due respect, therefore no slur was intended towards those nations who were previously defeated by the Nazis. However, although I wasn't there, it's perceived wisdom that France fell due to the speed of the Nazi advance in May 1940, the general lack of morale within their armed forces, and the lamentable lack of spine exhibited by their political leaders. And yes, there was also a lack of moral fibre within the British Cabinet at the time as well - until Churchill took over that is.
Certainly goes to show that just about any post can be twisted to suggest insults that were never intended - in these sad times of PC fascism.
I have noticed certain disparaging remarks regarding the Battle of Britain in previous posts but forebore to pass comment until now. Well, you are entitled to your opinion just as I am, and these kind of discussions have a habit of going around and around on this forum, ad nauseum, without getting anywhere, so I'll desist from further observations.

Except for one LAST thought. Maybe I'm allowed to have my opinions simply because there was a Battle of Britain.
Regards
H

 

[Rob]

Re: Future and Forthcoming Warbirds

Harry,i really did not see any insult against another country in your post in anyway at all,and i don't believe you meant it either.You were merely stating the fact that the people of Great Britain were hugely courageous during an air bombardment costing many lives.It has nothing to do with any other country's experience of war or any other theatre of War.You were talking about your country's experience during that period of history.You are absolutely correct the civilian population showed huge bravery,determination and fortitude under huge stress,it was this coupled with the guts,skill and sacrafice of our young pilots that won the Battle of Britain.



Cheers mate

Rob

 

[damian]

Re: Future and Forthcoming Warbirds

The great air battle which has been in progress over this Island for the last few weeks has recently attained a high intensity. It is too soon to attempt to assign limits either to its scale or to its duration. We must certainly expect that greater efforts will be made by the enemy than any he has so far put forth.… It is quite plain that Herr Hitler could not admit defeat in his air attack on Great Britain without sustaining most serious injury. If after all his boastings and bloodcurdling threats and lurid accounts trumpeted round the world of the damage he has inflicted, of the vast numbers of our Air Force he has shot down, so he says, with so little loss to himself …if after all this his whole air onslaught were forced after a while tamely to peter out, the Fuhrer's reputation for veracity of statement might be seriously impugned. We may be sure, therefore, that he will continue as long as he has the strength to do so…
…It must also be remembered that all the enemy machines and pilots which are shot down over our Island, or over the seas which surround it, are either destroyed or captured; whereas a considerable proportion of our machines, and also of our pilots, are saved, and soon again in many cases come into action.… We believe that we shall be able to continue the air struggle indefinitely and as long as the enemy pleases, and the longer it continues the more rapid will be our approach, first towards that parity, and then into that superiority, in the air upon which in a large measure the decision of the war depends.
The gratitude of every home in our Island, in our Empire, and indeed throughout the world, except in the abodes of the guilty, goes out to the British airmen who, undaunted by odds, unwearied in their constant challenge and mortal danger, are turning the tide of the World War by their prowess and by their devotion. Never in the field of human conflict was so much owed by so many to so few. All hearts go out to the fighter pilots, whose brilliant actions we see with our own eyes day after day…

 

[damian]

Re: Future and Forthcoming Warbirds

“ What General Weygand called the Battle of France is over. I expect that the Battle of Britain is about to begin. Upon this battle depends the survival of Christian civilization. Upon it depends our own British life, and the long continuity of our institutions and our Empire. The whole fury and might of the enemy must very soon be turned on us. Hitler knows that he will have to break us in this Island or lose the war. If we can stand up to him, all Europe may be free and the life of the world may move forward into broad, sunlit uplands. But if we fail, then the whole world, including the United States, including all that we have known and cared for, will sink into the abyss of a new Dark Age made more sinister, and perhaps more protracted, by the lights of perverted science. Let us therefore brace ourselves to our duties, and so bear ourselves that, if the British Empire and its Commonwealth last for a thousand years, men will still say, "This was their finest hour."

 

[jazzeum]

Re: Future and Forthcoming Warbirds

I have to side with Harry and Rob on this one but whether I do or not and whether it was part German incompetence or part British valor (as pointed out by Harry), what the RAF and her pilots did in repelling the Germans is something held close and dear by many people, not just by British people (but by people who are British at heart), and has entered the realm of mythology or of great feats (so to speak), to be remembered forever and to say otherwise, whether true or not, will invite criticism, to say the least.

It's not for nothing that we remember the following words (emphasis added):

"The gratitude of every home in our island, in our Empire, and indeed throughout the world, except in the abodes of the guilty, goes out to the British airmen who, undaunted by odds, unwearied in their constant challenge and mortal danger, are turning the tide of the world war by their prowess and by their devotion. Never in the field of human conflict was so much owed by so many to so few."

 

[Rob]

Re: Future and Forthcoming Warbirds

Nicely put Brad.I have over the years been fortunate enough to meet dozens of veterans and hundreds of civilians who actually lived through all this and they are 100% sure who was responsible for the German defeat as one elderly lady said to me 'Our young men (and pointing up at the Spit)and that up there'.

The fighting spirit that Churchill tapped into was electric.And i will take the words of a Spitfire pilot from a documentary a couple of years back everytime;

'Who did these Nazi pilots think they were?.Coming over here in their B***** little planes with their B***** black crosses on their wings,they were trespassing on our patch,and we weren't having it!!'

Rob

 

[Combat]

Re: Future and Forthcoming Warbirds

Certainly goes to show that just about any post can be twisted to suggest insults that were never intended - in these sad times of PC fascism.I have noticed certain disparaging remarks regarding the Battle of Britain in previous posts but forebore to pass comment until now.

H

H-
We can agree on this at least. Disparaging remarks about the Battle of Britain? My point was just that the Luftwaffe was not designed or equipped to win this battle. Not sure why that is considered "PC fascism"(?) unless you believe by implication that England won the war only because their people are somehow braver or better than others and the tactical aspects of the battle were not important.

 

[Harrytheheid]

Re: Future and Forthcoming Warbirds

H-
We can agree on this at least. Disparaging remarks about the Battle of Britain? My point was just that the Luftwaffe was not designed or equipped to win this battle. Not sure why that is considered "PC fascism"(?) unless you believe by implication that England won the war only because their people are somehow braver or better than others and the tactical aspects of the battle were not important.

C,
I've already stated that I'm not going to get involved in a war of words that gets nowhere and is bound to lead to heated exchanges, (not necessarily between us two). You've had your say and I've had mine. I'm leaving it at that - apart from; no the UK and it's Commonwealth could not have won WWII on its own. That monumental task could only be achieved through the Grand Alliance of what was the Free World at that time. I'll even grant that victory was ensured as soon as Hitler attacked the USSR and then Japan declared war on the USA.
Regards
H

 

[redhugh]

Re: Future and Forthcoming Warbirds

C,
I've already stated that I'm not going to get involved in a war of words that gets nowhere and is bound to lead to heated exchanges, (not necessarily between us two). You've had your say and I've had mine. I'm leaving it at that - apart from; no the UK and it's Commonwealth could not have won WWII on its own. That monumental task could only be achieved through the Grand Alliance of what was the Free World at that time. I'll even grant that victory was ensured as soon as Hitler attacked the USSR and then Japan declared war on the USA.
Regards
H

Have to remember as well that the Brits were listening into everything the Germans were transmitting from the begining of the war, through Bletchley park. During the Battle of Britain, Ultra intelligence was used by Air Chief Marshal Sir Hugh Dowding to optimally deploy the limited RAF Fighter Command assets. Ultra intelligence helped end the war a couple of years earlier than it might have had otherwise, Eisenhower described it as decisive in ending the war.
F.W. Winterbotham, in his 1974 book The Ultra Secret, about the influence of Enigma decryption on the course of World War II, "Let no one be fooled," Winterbotham admonishes in chapter 3, "by the spate of television films and propaganda which has made the war seem like some great triumphant epic. It was, in fact, a very narrow shave, and the reader may like to ponder [...] whether [...] we might have won [without] Ultra."

 

[Wraith]

Re: Future and Forthcoming Warbirds

Have to remember as well that the Brits were listening into everything the Germans were transmitting from the begining of the war, through Bletchley park.

Sneeky, ain't we?

 

[redhugh]

Re: Future and Forthcoming Warbirds

Sneeky, ain't we?

well now that you say it...

 

[Rob]

Re: Future and Forthcoming Warbirds

Harry,what concerns me is this.You and i know there are people on this forum who have definite agendas that are trotted out on a regular basis.The Germans lost the Battle of Britain the RAF didn't win it,if the Germans had invaded they were bound to succeed,Monty only won at Alamein because of numbers (very insulting to the fighting men who gave their lives).Never mind the fact he defeated Rommel lets concentrate on his mistakes at Arnhem.And then in the same breath they almost worship people like Wittman Rommel etc who fought for the most evil regime in History.Now you and i can only guess at peoples motives for this,we both have our own ideas as to why but lets leave it at that.

The fact is Harry it was as was said in the Battle of Britain film,our young men shot down their young men in greater numbers.We in this country are very proud of the young men who gave their lives for our freedom in the second world war of 1939 to 1945.

Rob

 

[redhugh]

Re: Future and Forthcoming Warbirds

One of the many reasons that Ultra wasn't talked about till the 1970's is that the Allies didn't want their enemies blaming it for their defeat. It is a credit to the people of Bletchley park and the hugh secrecy campaign around it , that it never leaked. It undoubtably contributed to a much speedier victory in many theatres and saved many lives. One of the hard decisions faced by Churchill was not to intervene in the mass aerial bombardment of Coventry early in the war, for fear of giving away knowledge of Ultra to the Germans.

for example in the desert war

"Ultra information was used to attack and sink many Afrika Korps supply ships bound for North Africa.
In one particular case, the Germans became suspicious of Ultra when five ships from Naples headed for North Africa with essential supplies for Rommel's campaign were all mysteriously attacked and sunk by an Allied airforce. As there was no time to have the ships all spotted by the airforce beforehand and then sunk accordingly, the decision went directly to Churchill whether or not to act solely on Ultra intelligence. Churchill approved the attack, but afterwards a message was sent by the Allies to Naples congratulating a fictitious spy and informing him of his bonus. According to some sources the Germans decrypted this message and believed it."

 

[Harrytheheid]

Re: Future and Forthcoming Warbirds

Harry,what concerns me is this.You and i know there are people on this forum who have definite agendas that are trotted out on a regular basis.
Rob

Well now, isn't that a fact Rob......

 

[Harrytheheid]

Re: Future and Forthcoming Warbirds

Yeah, and where's mine.....must be a software glitch....

Actually, I knew as soon as I posted it that I ought to have deleted it myself. Unpleasant truths have little chance of escaping objections sent to the forum moderators by "The New Commissars" who prefer to lurk around in "Stealth Mode" rather than be upfront as to when they're logged in.

 

[Combat]

Re: Future and Forthcoming Warbirds

Actually, I knew as soon as I posted it that I ought to have deleted it myself. Unpleasant truths have little chance of escaping objections sent to the forum moderators by "The New Commissars" who prefer to lurk around in "Stealth Mode" rather than be upfront as to when they're logged in.

For the record I have never sent any objection to your posts to the forum moderator. Individuals should be held responsible for their own words and that can't happen if "objectionable" posts are deleted without explanation. I actually think Brad should put yours back up since many here might be interested to know that you believe they are neo-nazis. I find that statement bizarre and offensive but believe it should not be deleted.

 

[jazzeum]

For the record, Doug is correct and has never objected to any person's posts.

The post was being deleted as it was a little excessive in its comments towards those who collect German vehicles. As far as a poster being "invisible" that is his or her right to do so and nothing should be inferred from a person doing that.

 

[Harrytheheid]

Re: Future and Forthcoming Warbirds

For the record I have never sent any objection to your posts to the forum moderator. Individuals should be held responsible for their own words and that can't happen if "objectionable" posts are deleted without explanation. I actually think Brad should put yours back up since many here might be interested to know that you believe they are neo-nazis. I find that statement bizarre and offensive but believe it should not be deleted.

Apologies and regrets for the misunderstanding C, I certainly wasn't referring to you in the post that was deleted.
And yeah, I certainly do stand by my comments regarding the tiny number of Nazi-Groupies I objected to, who are repeatedly condemned by their own arrogant words.
And I certainly agree that if "objectionable" posts are deleted, then the explanation for the deletion request as sent to the moderators, together with the forum-name of the objector should be posted.
I trust this clears the air between us, if not the N-G's, as I care nothing for their self-righteous, hot-air, excuses for desiring to be armchair Panzer Obergrupenfuehrer's in any case.
And that my cuddly friends is my FINAL word on this subject - for a while anyway.

H