Battle of Britain (1 Viewer)

[Rob]

Just for the record i was not referring to Doug either,i must also confess to be slightly()touchy about the Battle of Britain,its a subject close to my heart.Perhaps even closer than Chocolate and Pasta!

Rob

 

[redhugh]

C'mon , neo-nazi's There are plenty of neo-nazi's around who don't even know they are neo-nazi but I certainly don't see any suggestion of that on this forum

The war was won by the allies but it also could have been lost, the allies needed Ultra to bring the german war machine to its knees as quickly as possible and it's a tribute to the men on the ground, at sea and in the air that they destroyed nazisim and probably destoryed a way of thinking that was prevalent in all of europe including the UK, at the time, such as racial profiling and discrimination, eugenics and many other plain evil stupid ideas. People also developed a healthy sceptisim for propaganda, and flag waving rabble-rousing. Churchill was kicked out pretty quickly after the war and the NHS came into being. We see numerous examples of Nazism around us today, utilising techniques and ideas developed by the Nazi's, people stood up and fought against this in the 1940's, wonder what those hero's would think of the present generation and their willingness to swallow whatever focus grouped soundbites the politicians give us and to stand up to abuses and evil ideas today, or are we all to well fed and watered. Or is it the excuse the german people gave "We didn't know". That would be a true reincarnation of the evil of nazisim.
There's no crime in enthusiastically admiring the machinery of war, axis or allied (but imo the german stuff has the edge on coolness ),but the real crime is not recognising the ideas and methods of the Nazi's that we see around us today

 

[Rob]

I don't think you can write off peoples concerns with a mate.With the greatest respect to you Redhugh you have not been on the forum that long so may not have seen some exchanges in the past.There is a very thin line i think between appreciating miltary machinery and heroic exploits but not slipping into idolising some of the scum that inhabited the ranks of the German Army.Michael Wittman is a clear case in point.Without doubt a brilliantly talented Tank commander who won many victories.But as a human being?.Well words don't quite sum it up in my opinion.

Maybe Neo Nazis is too strong a term to use,but we all have the right on this free forum to voice our concerns about any issue raised.We must also remember that there maybe (many for all we know)people on here whose family or distant relatives suffered at the hands of that hideous regime.I know for a fact that for some of my American friends on this forum this is the case.Just my tuppence worth you understand.

Rob

 

[redhugh]

I don't think you can write off peoples concerns with a mate.With the greatest respect to you Redhugh you have not been on the forum that long so may not have seen some exchanges in the past.There is a very thin line i think between appreciating miltary machinery and heroic exploits but not slipping into idolising some of the scum that inhabited the ranks of the German Army.Michael Wittman is a clear case in point.Without doubt a brilliantly talented Tank commander who won many victories.But as a human being?.Well words don't quite sum it up in my opinion.

Maybe Neo Nazis is too strong a term to use,but we all have the right on this free forum to voice our concerns about any issue raised.We must also remember that there maybe (many for all we know)people on here whose family or distant relatives suffered at the hands of that hideous regime.I know for a fact that for some of my American friends on this forum this is the case.Just my tuppence worth you understand.

Rob

If I overreacted then I don't apologise. To label anyone a nazi or neo nazi, or even suggest they come anywhere close is a frightening use of the word.
I was in dachau last July, and the most chilling aspect of the exhibit was the scale of the camp regime, and most sickening of all the efficiency of it. They had camps for children, camps for females , people who could work , people who couldn't work. This was so throughly thought through and so exacting that I pray no regime like that ever comes into existence again. It wasn't just evil, it was pure evil.
Chilling for me was the exhibits at dachau of the front pages of the New York Times and other worthy publications and the soundbites reported from the mid thirties when the Nazi regime came to power. Journalists questioned the existence of camps in the thirties.(they were used for oppenents to the nazi regime first, but weren't death camps at that stage but Dachau was to become the prototype for all the death camps that followed), and the responses and justification from the german ministries of the time , to questions about the aborgation of human rights , sounded not unlike the same claptrap we hear today.
Nazism was evil in its purest refined form, and as such a term not to be cheapened by flippant usage , but to be revered and reserved for when and if ever that evil arises again. A few saddo's crying heil hitler and dressing up in jodphurs is less scary than the insidous inveiglement of fascist ideals into democratic societies.
As regards scumbags , there is one in every single town in every single
country on every single continent. The germans certainly didn't have a monopoly on that.

There were 10,006 camps all told, I must admit, I was ignorant and dumbfounded by the number of camps and subcamps and sheer extent of the organisation that went into this mass butchery, before visiting the exhibit, despite seeing many documentaries.
This picture just captures a few of the thousands of camps

 

[Harrytheheid]

Re: Future and Forthcoming Warbirds

Harry,what concerns me is this.You and i know there are people on this forum who have definite agendas that are trotted out on a regular basis.The Germans lost the Battle of Britain the RAF didn't win it,if the Germans had invaded they were bound to succeed,Monty only won at Alamein because of numbers (very insulting to the fighting men who gave their lives).Never mind the fact he defeated Rommel lets concentrate on his mistakes at Arnhem.And then in the same breath they almost worship people like Wittman Rommel etc who fought for the most evil regime in History.Now you and i can only guess at peoples motives for this,we both have our own ideas as to why but lets leave it at that.
Rob

SEE MY RESPONSE item AA,BB and CC, BELOW.
H

I don't think you can write off peoples concerns with a mate.With the greatest respect to you Redhugh you have not been on the forum that long so may not have seen some exchanges in the past.There is a very thin line i think between appreciating miltary machinery and heroic exploits but not slipping into idolising some of the scum that inhabited the ranks of the German Army.Michael Wittman is a clear case in point.Without doubt a brilliantly talented Tank commander who won many victories.But as a human being?.Well words don't quite sum it up in my opinion.
Rob

SEE MY RESPONSE item AA,BB and CC, BELOW.
H

As regards scumbags , there is one in every single town in every single country on every single continent. The germans certainly didn't have a monopoly on that.

SEE MY RESPONSE item AA,BB and CC, BELOW.
H

There's no crime in enthusiastically admiring the machinery of war, axis or allied (but imo the german stuff has the edge on coolness ),but the real crime is not recognising the ideas and methods of the Nazi's that we see around us today

SEE MY RESPONSE item AA,BB and CC, BELOW.
H

Actually, I knew as soon as I posted it that I ought to have deleted it myself. Unpleasant truths have little chance of escaping objections sent to the forum moderators by "The New Commissars" who prefer to lurk around in "Stealth Mode" rather than be upfront as to when they're logged in.

SEE MY RESPONSE item AA,BB and CC, BELOW.
H

Apologies and regrets for the misunderstanding C, I certainly wasn't referring to you in the post that was deleted.
And yeah, I certainly do stand by my comments regarding the tiny number of Nazi-Groupies I objected to, who are repeatedly condemned by their own arrogant words.
And I certainly agree that if "objectionable" posts are deleted, then the explanation for the deletion request as sent to the moderators, together with the forum-name of the objector should be posted.
H

SEE MY RESPONSE item AA,BB and CC, BELOW.
H


AA.
The message I posted that was deleted before I got around to doing it myself, was a direct response to Rob's post because I agreed wholeheartedly with what he said.
My use of the term "Neo-Nazi's" was at best, ill advised, and shall be substituted with the much more apt and accurate term "Nazi-Groupies" in future.

Now let's get back to Rob's post;

You and i know there are people on this forum who have definite agendas that are trotted out on a regular basis.The Germans lost the Battle of Britain the RAF didn't win it,if the Germans had invaded they were bound to succeed,Monty only won at Alamein because of numbers (very insulting to the fighting men who gave their lives).Never mind the fact he defeated Rommel lets concentrate on his mistakes at Arnhem.And then in the same breath they almost worship people like Wittman Rommel etc who fought for the most evil regime in History.

Oh yes, there are certainly definite agendas played out here. I've often wondered if it's connected with lingering sentiments of distaste for the British Empire. An Empire that was on it's last legs in any case after the First World War with the emergence of, primarily, Canada, South Africa, Australia and New Zealand as nations in their own right as opposed to colonies, together with growing demands for self-rule by the people of India, and others.
BTW, the mass surrender of Empire forces at Singapore in 1942 was the final nail in the coffin of Britain's Colonial Empire, in Asia at least.

Are these "lingering sentiments of distaste for the British Empire" the reason why certain postures are taken up with monotonous regularity;
The RAF didn't WIN the Battle of Britain - the Nazi's only LOST it; that one is a classic..!! No mention of a Nation with it's back to the wall; the only Nation in the free world in 1940 which had yet to succumb to Nazi aggression.
"Oh no, the Nazi's weren't geared up for that kind of conflict". Oh Yeah..?? Well, they were plenty geared up for it the following year with Barbarossa weren't they, when they went through the Soviet Regime's defences like a knife through butter. A regime, I would remind everyone that was every bit as barbaric and deplorable as the Nazi's own and had connived in the carve-up of Poland as recently as 1939. Of course, the Russians didn't have an RAF to save the people of European Russia from the bestialities which they were all too soon being subjected to.
And that my friends is the reason why we British are so very proud of our pilots (of whatever nationality) and their courageous sacrifice during the summer and autumn of 1940. Despite the myths and legends, they really did save us from the deprivations of fascism and laid the basis for the eventual defeat of the Nazis by the Grand Alliance.

BB.
As Rob stated, there's a very thin line between admiration for military equipment (I also collect WWII German AFV's along with other nations armour and equipment) and fawning adulation for the kind of people who were operating the same equipment. Enter, the "Nazi-Groupies".
Wittman, Rommel, Galland, et al represented the German armed forces - and as such had all sworn an oath of allegiance to Hitler. And I don't care if they were only following orders - funny, but I seem to recall that we've all heard that one before. Nuremberg anyone..??
The first two mentioned above were dead by 1945 and didn't live to see their Third Reich defeated by the Allies, but that chancer Galland certainly was. This was the same Adolph who carved out a highly successful post-war career among the gullible as a professional "Good German". Don't make me laugh. He was just as guilty as the rest of the Nazi crew.

CC.
I agree in principle with RH's comment; As regards scumbags , there is one in every single town in every single country on every single continent. God knows, I've seen enough of them myself, but I would suggest that the Nazi Machine turned out scumbags as a matter of policy.
And I 100% agree with another comment made by RH; the real crime is not recognising the ideas and methods of the Nazi's that we see around us today.
Regards to Almost All
H

 

[Harrytheheid]

PS.
I self-censored a few comments in my previous post regarding American isolationist policies pre-1917 and pre-1941 as serving no useful purpose in this particular discussion. And also through a reluctance to offend my many American friends both within and without this forum.
Regards
H

 

[Louis Badolato]

In every battle fought in the history of the world, there were mistakes made by both sides, and, it the battle was not a draw, there was a winner and a loser. The winner is the side that either made the fewest (or least damaging) mistakes or capitalized on the other sides mistakes (or more likely a combination of both).

Among my greatest heroes of all time are the brave men of the RAF (including a dozen or so of my countrymen) and the rest of the brave occupants of Britain who stood up to and defeated the Nazis in the Battle of Britain. Anyone who doesn't believe that they won the battle is clueless. Did the Nazis make a ton of mistakes, like changing the focus of the bombing campaign from the airfields and radar stations to the City of London, or not having a long range fighter and a sufficiently heavy bomber prepared for the campaign? Absolutely. But if those brave people didn't fight them in the air, perform damage control on the ground, and, most importantly, keep their spirits up and not give in under the onslaught, the battle could not be won. Did they have the advantage of the English Channel and the Royal Navy to hold back the Nazi onslaught? Certainly, and thank God they did! But again, you fight battles on the terrain you are presented with, and if by choice or good fortune you defend natural barriers, that is only one more factor to consider.

As far as the Nazi groupies of the world, I have no use for them. But a person can collect SS Parade Nazi stuff (just for the record, I certainly don't!) without being a Nazi groupie. Lots of good people on this forum do it, for their own reasons, and are still my friends. On the other hand, my collection will always focus on the Allied forces (with plenty of British and Commonwealth representation, especially the RAF), because I like to commemorate the brave men and women who literally saved the world. To me, the German and Japanese stuff is just canon fodder to display around my victorious Allied forces.

Anyway, Rob, Redhugh and Heid, I certainly see all of your points, and agree with you, at least in sentiment. I suspect if you read each other's posts carefully, you will that you are all agree in principal.

Finally, with regard to the United States, we may have joined the party late, but your ancestors really didn't seem to mind once we got there. We don't win the war without you carrying civilization's water for two years, you don't win the war without us providing first arms and ammunition, then joining the fight, and let's face it, none of us win the war without the Soviet Union. So I have one big fat thankyou for the greatest generation from all Allied nations! Noe lets all climb down off our soapboxes, and get back into the topic that launched this little tempest in a teapot: more WARBIRDS!!!!

 

[Rob]

Louis an absolutely superb post,well said my friend.

Rob

 

[Harrytheheid]

Louis an absolutely superb post,well said my friend.

Rob

I agree Rob; excellent post Louis, but I think there may have been a slight misconception. A person can certainly collect SS Parade Nazi stuff, (just for the record, some of that stuff does exist in our residential abode - not my fault), without being a Nazi-Groupie. Perhaps the fact that my post was edited without reference to me may have been the cause of the misconception. Be that as it may, the issue wasn't concerned with what people buy. I myself have quite a few Nazi AFV's and what people collect is none of my business anyway. The objection was to the general tone of adulation, indeed almost hero-worship that tends to come across when certain members of the WWII German armed forces are discussed on this forum. I have no problem with those who admire these individuals, individuals who have mostly been dead these past 60 years or so anyway, as long as that admiration is kept to the level of their abilities as soldiers. When that admiration crosses the line into starry-eyed reverence, to the point where it approaches deification, then it ought to be recalled exactly what kind of regime they served.

Nuf Sed
H

 

[Rob]

Exactly Harry,we all admire the military skill of people like Rommel but we must at all times remember the Camps that Redhugh was talking about.If Rommel,Wittman and co had won they would have stretched further across the world.

I echo Louis's words about the previous generation from whatever country they came from, who rid the world of these scum and secured freedom for us all.God bless everyone one of them.

Rob

 

[Combat]

This thread has gone on longer than the Battle of Britain. My original point was just that the Luftwaffe was not tactically suited for longer range bombing campaigns. That is a generally accepted, non-controversial point. I don't think it denigrates the RAF in anyway but even it did it's still true. The second point raised in response - which I believe has nothing to do with the original discussion - is whether there are "neo-nazis" or "nazi groupies" on this forum. I can only say that I have not seen any evidence of that and find such claims offensive and unsupported even if they are not directed at me. I do agree that we have had plenty of Wittman and Sepp Dietrich figures produced by KC but that's a point I have been making for a long time. How about taking that up with Andy instead of the forum members? I recently suggested KC should do a Georg Elser figure - the nobody guy who came within 15 minutes of killing Hitler and was executed for his efforts. No one including our anti-nazi crusaders here commented on that one.

http://www.treefrogtreasures.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7888&highlight=elser

 

[Rob]

So are you saying that even if the remarks are not aimed at you,you find them offensive because you believe it is completely impossible there could be Nazi groupies on the forum?.

You must also understand that when people continually denergrate your country or people from your country(not yours of course but mine)who fought on the side of freedom whilst at the same time lets be honest here 'favourable' to members of the German army,it does appear somewhat 'odd'.I think when this happens over a long period of time people have every right to have their suspicions.

Rob

 

[Combat]

So are you saying that even if the remarks are not aimed at you,you find them offensive because you believe it is completely impossible there could be Nazi groupies on the forum?.

You must also understand that when people continually denergrate your country or people from your country(not yours of course but mine)who fought on the side of freedom whilst at the same time lets be honest here 'favourable' to members of the German army,it does appear somewhat 'odd'.I think when this happens over a long period of time people have every right to have their suspicions.

Rob

Rob-
Any real or perceived criticism of Britain - or in this case the Luftwaffe(!) - does not equate to pro-nazi sentiment in my opinion. Other than some discussions about Montgomery I don't even recall anything negative being said about Britain's conduct in WWII on this forum. To claim that there are nazi groupies here is a serious claim to make and should not be based on suspicions.

 

[Rob]

Ok Doug i hear what your saying.Its very difficult this one because you are of course right in that accusing some one of pro Nazi feelings is indeed a very serious thing,perhaps myself and Harry could have chosen our words better.I also hold my hands up (as i said in an earlier post)to the fact that i am very sensitive about certain subjects probably most of all about The Battle of Britain.But this is for a good reason.With my work at the museum i have met hundreds of ex RAF fighter pilots,civilians,Policemen,ARP Wardens and people who were kids at the time who lived through this period and i tell you this Doug their stories have made me cry much as i may try and hide it.

I hate the Nazis for what they did to my country and what they put my people through.However i will for the sake of peace on this forum which i enjoy so much,try and tone it down.It was never my intention to upset anyone on this forum i was just airing my concern about the dangers of idolising some of the famous German warriors.I will now draw a line under this and move on.Once again i say i meant no offence to either you Doug or anyone on this forum,i was just standing up for my country,once again perhaps over the top.

Rob

 

[Harrytheheid]

This thread has gone on longer than the Battle of Britain.

I've repeatedly stated that I'm reluctant to be drawn into a war of words on this so in common with Rob, for the sake of peace on this board I shall also make an effort to leave it alone.
H

 

[Capitolron]

Can we now talk about the Battle of Britain - that should of happen........

Just a few French Ships ... hmmmm .......

NAPOLEON !

 

[Harrytheheid]

Can we now talk about the Battle of Britain - that should of happen........

Just a few French Ships ... hmmmm .......

NAPOLEON !

Now that lot did try an invasion through Ireland. Result was exactly the same as the "Other Little Corporal's".........

(WELLINGTON)


Cheers
H

 

[redhugh]

Interesting little episode that,
Well the French did land, Famously known in Ireland as "The Year of the French" and liberated Connaught in the West of Ireland for a brief spell.

General Humbert , on landing at Killala in Mayo proclaimed

"LIBERTY, EQUALITY, FRATERNITY, UNION - After several unsuccessful attempts, behold at last Frenchmen arrived amongst you... Brave Irishmen, our cause is common. Like you we hold as indefeasible the right of all nations to liberty. Like you we are persuaded that the peace of the world shall ever be troubled as long as the British ministry is suffered to make with impunity a traffic of the industry and blood of the people . . . Union, Liberty, the Irish Republic! Such is our shout. Let us march. Our hearts are devoted to you; our glory is in your happiness."

The Battle of Castlebar occurred on 27th August during the Irish Rebellion of 1798 when a combined force of 2,000 French troops and Irish rebels routed a force of 6,000 British troops in what would later became known as the Races of Castlebar.
The victory of General Humbert at Castlebar, despite gaining him c. 5,000 Irish recruits had not led to a renewed outbreak of the rebellion as hoped. A massive British army of some 26,000 men was assembled under the new Viceroy Lord Cornwallis (he of Yorktown) and was steadily moving towards his forces. Abandoning Castlebar, Humbert moved towards Ulster with the apparent intention of igniting a rising there but after defeating a blocking force of British troops at Collooney in Sligo he altered course following reports that rebellions had broken out in Westmeath and Longford.

With Cornwallis' huge force blocking the road to Dublin, facing constant harassment of his rearguard and the pending arrival of General Lake's command, Humbert decided to make a stand the next day at the townland of Ballinamuck on the Longford/Leitrim border.

Humbert faced overwhelming numbers. General Lake was close behind with 14,000 men; the new Viceroy, Lord Cornwallis, on his right at Carrick-on-Shannon with 15,000. The battle began with a short artillery duel followed by a dragoon charge on exposed Irish rebels. There was a brief struggle when French lines were reached which only ceased when Humbert signalled his intention to surrender and his officers ordered their men to lay down their muskets.

In Ireland due to the execution of prisoners of war in Ballinalee after the Battle of Ballinamuck, Cornwallis achieved local notoriety that lasts to this day. In the village, in the north Leinster county of Longford, the site of the executions is known as Bullys Acre.

Cornwallis was to remain in Ireland as Lord Lieutenant until he was reappointed governor-general of India in 1805, but on October 5, shortly after arriving, died of a fever at Ghazipur, near Varanasi.

A little bit of napolenic era Irish history, in case you were wondering what Cornwallis got up to after Yorktown

 

[Molloy]

Interesting little episode that,
Well the French did land, Famously known in Ireland as "The Year of the French" and liberated Connaught in the West of Ireland for a brief spell.

General Humbert , on landing at Killala in Mayo proclaimed

"LIBERTY, EQUALITY, FRATERNITY, UNION - After several unsuccessful attempts, behold at last Frenchmen arrived amongst you... Brave Irishmen, our cause is common. Like you we hold as indefeasible the right of all nations to liberty. Like you we are persuaded that the peace of the world shall ever be troubled as long as the British ministry is suffered to make with impunity a traffic of the industry and blood of the people . . . Union, Liberty, the Irish Republic! Such is our shout. Let us march. Our hearts are devoted to you; our glory is in your happiness."

The Battle of Castlebar occurred on 27th August during the Irish Rebellion of 1798 when a combined force of 2,000 French troops and Irish rebels routed a force of 6,000 British troops in what would later became known as the Races of Castlebar.
The victory of General Humbert at Castlebar, despite gaining him c. 5,000 Irish recruits had not led to a renewed outbreak of the rebellion as hoped. A massive British army of some 26,000 men was assembled under the new Viceroy Lord Cornwallis (he of Yorktown) and was steadily moving towards his forces. Abandoning Castlebar, Humbert moved towards Ulster with the apparent intention of igniting a rising there but after defeating a blocking force of British troops at Collooney in Sligo he altered course following reports that rebellions had broken out in Westmeath and Longford.

With Cornwallis' huge force blocking the road to Dublin, facing constant harassment of his rearguard and the pending arrival of General Lake's command, Humbert decided to make a stand the next day at the townland of Ballinamuck on the Longford/Leitrim border.

Humbert faced overwhelming numbers. General Lake was close behind with 14,000 men; the new Viceroy, Lord Cornwallis, on his right at Carrick-on-Shannon with 15,000. The battle began with a short artillery duel followed by a dragoon charge on exposed Irish rebels. There was a brief struggle when French lines were reached which only ceased when Humbert signalled his intention to surrender and his officers ordered their men to lay down their muskets.

In Ireland due to the execution of prisoners of war in Ballinalee after the Battle of Ballinamuck, Cornwallis achieved local notoriety that lasts to this day. In the village, in the north Leinster county of Longford, the site of the executions is known as Bullys Acre.

Cornwallis was to remain in Ireland as Lord Lieutenant until he was reappointed governor-general of India in 1805, but on October 5, shortly after arriving, died of a fever at Ghazipur, near Varanasi.

A little bit of napolenic era Irish history, in case you were wondering what Cornwallis got up to after Yorktown

How timely! I'm currently holed up in the library trying to study just that period in Irish history for upcoming college exams. As is obvious though from my presence here, the revision could be going a little bit better!

Regards,

Molloy.

 

[Spitfrnd]

Re: Future and Forthcoming Warbirds

...The fact is ...our young men shot down their young men in greater numbers. We in this country are very proud of the young men who gave their lives for our freedom in the second world war of 1939 to 1945.

Rob

You have the greatest justification for that pride, and I would say that appreciation is shared by freedom loving people throughout the world. Whatever the tactical situation, which may, has been and will continue to be debated at great length, it was as Churchill called it, IMHO. One of my favorite movies BTW