Britains', Is This Kind of Letter Necessary? (2 Viewers)

[jazzeum]

I received my new issue of Toy Soldier yesterday and saw the letter from Richard Walker of Britains in which he talked about how they're going to improve, "make some of the best toy soldiers ever made" (I think Andy might have something to say about that), etc. In other words, the normal amount of puffery you see from many folks, regardless of profession.

But then I came on the following disturbing paragraph and I quote "Top-rate American and British sculptors, not Chinese as was done in the past, have been brought on board. These sculptors have nailed the character likenesses, equipment details, and the overall feel and drape of the uniforms." Not only is the statement rascist but the clear implication is that Chinese sculptors can't make likenesses, details and feel and drape. This is just a lot of garbage because King and Country proves otherwise.

Now, I understand that Britains had trouble with some sculptors who happened to be located in China but the fact that they were Chinese is completely irrelevant. You don't have to be good or bad at what you do to be of a particular nationality or race. Those factors are simply irrelevant.

There are better ways to express a sentiment and if I were Mr. Walker he might want to think about that before publishing a letter in a public forum.

As Mr. Walker correctly points out, the proof is in the pudding whether or not they make the best toy soldiers ever made. Frankly, that train has left the station and Andy is the engineer. What remains to be seen is whether Britains can catch up and entice the new collector to buy their product.

 

[sceic2]

I wonder how much "Made in China" backlash will come out in the future. The Chinese are rapidly becoming our greatest competitor. The US does best under pressure and sometimes we have to have an "enemy" to compete with. Some could be racist but I think more of it is fear of losing our status in the world to what most would classify as an "emerging" third world (possibly second world) nation.

Additionally, some may be just sales puffery to try to instill a doubt about the big boy on the block, namely K&C. I recall the Ford verse Chevy times of my past (when muscle cars ruled). When you are number one, you must expect the others to try to change attitudes and put doubt in the buyers minds about the "true" quality of the big boy.

Just an observation. Michael

And what are the new Napoleonic's and when will they be released.

 

[Digger]

As Mr. Walker correctly points out, the proof is in the pudding whether or not they make the best toy soldiers ever made. Frankly, that train has left the station and Andy is the engineer. What remains to be seen is whether Britains can catch up and entice the new collector to buy their product.

One thing I have noticed since joining this forum is that the over-all feeling is that if it's not K&C, then it's not very good. I guess that all depends on what you collect.

Being new to the world of miniature soldiers collectibles, I haven't been around long enough to get to know the individuals behind the company. My collection is solely based on the products that are available and what I have seen. Currently I have 23 boxes sitting on my desk and none of them are K&C. Do I feel the others are better than K&C?? Yes. Is it because I collect them and so they are better than anyone else? No. It all boils down to what is available to me as a Civil War enthusiast. I see a lot of Britains, Conte and Forward March, but no K&C, so in my eyes I cannot agree that they are the best. I collect entirely Civil War and lets face it, K&C is pretty lacking in that category and what they do have is rather un-impressive. Fact is that if you are into the Civil War then K&C pretty much doesn't exist so as a collector you direct your attention to the other manufacturers.

 

[King & Country]

Hi Guys,

On the subject of Chinese Sculptors my experience of them in general and our own team in particular is that they are some of the finest in the world – dedicated… creative… skilfull… and extremely hard working.



If, on occasion, they come up with sculpts that are sub standard and not equal to top-rate American or British sculptors it’s because : A) They have not been adequately briefed…B) Fully supplied with relevant visual information…and C) Properly supervised by creative people who know what they’re talking about…

It’s a wee bit like computers…”Rubbish In… Rubbish Out”.



Best wishes and…happy sculpting!



Andy C.

 

[Peter Reuss]

Being new to the world of miniature soldiers collectibles, I haven't been around long enough to get to know the individuals behind the company. My collection is solely based on the products that are available and what I have seen. Currently I have 23 boxes sitting on my desk and none of them are K&C. Do I feel the others are better than K&C?? Yes. Is it because I collect them and so they are better than anyone else? No. It all boils down to what is available to me as a Civil War enthusiast. I see a lot of Britains, Conte and Forward March, but no K&C, so in my eyes I cannot agree that they are the best. I collect entirely Civil War and lets face it, K&C is pretty lacking in that category and what they do have is rather un-impressive. Fact is that if you are into the Civil War then K&C pretty much doesn't exist so as a collector you direct your attention to the other manufacturers.

K&C has chosen to not 'play' the Civil War game since their intitial Civil War releases (which are long retired - but still available).

While K&C dominates the WWII time period, I don't think anyone dominates the Civil War - it's wide open! Britains, Conte, Troiani, Forward March (I must be forgetting some!).

I'd be interested to know what companies people think do the best Civil War figures? Is there one 'clear winner' or does it vary based on the set?

Pete

 

[jazzeum]

One thing I have noticed since joining this forum is that the over-all feeling is that if it's not K&C, then it's not very good. I guess that all depends on what you collect.

Being new to the world of miniature soldiers collectibles, I haven't been around long enough to get to know the individuals behind the company. My collection is solely based on the products that are available and what I have seen. Currently I have 23 boxes sitting on my desk and none of them are K&C. Do I feel the others are better than K&C?? Yes. Is it because I collect them and so they are better than anyone else? No. It all boils down to what is available to me as a Civil War enthusiast. I see a lot of Britains, Conte and Forward March, but no K&C, so in my eyes I cannot agree that they are the best. I collect entirely Civil War and lets face it, K&C is pretty lacking in that category and what they do have is rather un-impressive. Fact is that if you are into the Civil War then K&C pretty much doesn't exist so as a collector you direct your attention to the other manufacturers.

Like Pete said they're not in the Civil War game. But other than that in the areas they compete, especially in World War II, not only are there no peers, there is not anybody else in the game. Britains has been left behind and is desperately trying to catch up. Two new entrants are coming in and trying to capture that market a little bit, Honour Bound and British Commando. I'm sure that if K & C wanted to do Civil War, they would set the gold standard.

As to whether I think if it's not K & C, I don't think it's good enough? Guilty as charged and proud of it. However, I do have a couple of Britains sets, the British Paras, and like them very much, and am hopeful of buying some Figarti Tanks to add to my collection.

It's not for nothing that K & C is generating a lot of attention in the market place and on this Board.

 

[Digger]

I'd be interested to know what companies people think do the best Civil War figures? Is there one 'clear winner' or does it vary based on the set?

Throwing aside the museum-quality expensive companies, I would say it's a toss-up between Britains, Conte and Forward March. Personally, I think Forward March has the edge when it comes to the consistancy of the extra detail on their soldiers and their hospital sets are a bit too detailed. Then along comes Britains with a few wows in their soldier line as well, but they hold a definite edge in the mounted pieces with their great looking horses and their "Art of War" series. And Conte, what can I say... I like their "dead" soldiers. The best advantage is that the soldiers and tactical sets of all 3 companies inter-mix well, look great together and are very affordable.

I wish K&C would indeed get interested in the Civil War. But then I'd have to get rid of all my others! And I just started collecting them!!!!

 

[Steven Chong]

Best Civil War Figures?

I'd be interested to know what companies people think do the best Civil War figures? Is there one 'clear winner' or does it vary based on the set?

My brother, David, is a big American Civil War buff and has over 5,000 ACW figures displayed. Besides Britains, Conte and Forward March, other companies that make ACW figures are:
1) Frontline http://www.frontline-figures.com/, largest 54mm range in matt finish, sculpted by Howard Swales and Gerard Prime in Hong Kong and made in China.
2) Tedtoys http://www.tedtoy.com/, large 54mm range in glossy finish, figures in sets have different, individual heads, sculpted and painted by Ted Deddens in KY.
3) Edmunds Traditional Toy Soldiers, very large range of traditional glossy toy soldiers (all in marching poses) with over 200 regiments represented, sculpted and painted by Ed Fangonilo in San Francisco, CA. Check Michigan Toy Soldiers site for pictures of these figures http://www.michtoy.com/
4) Gettysburg Toy Soldier, husband and wife team of Ed and Laverne Miller take commissions at Chicago Toy Soldier Show, and then modify and matt paint Shenandoah or IR castings to order.
5) Chris Munro of The Soldier Gallery in Cambria, CA has small range of 54mm matt ACW figures in overcoats (Fredricksburg) that he sculpts and paints. Also on Michigan Toy Soldiers' site.
6) Trophy of Wales has large ACW range in glossy finish but I am not sure if they are still producing figures.
If you like glossy figures, I recommend Tedtoys. If you like traditional glossy toy soldiers in marching poses, I recommend Edmunds. If you like matt figures, I recommend Frontline.
Steven Chong

 

[TLP]

I think you go a little to far with the racist comments. I would say that since the market for these things is the U.S. and the UK why not promote the fact that your using American or British sculptors? Perhaps he should have stayed on this side of the fence but decided to poke at China. In addition I think the figures Britians makes will most likely end up manufactured in China. Fact is this. These things are made cheap as hell after the sculpts. Probably pennies on the dollar, to try and put this issue at the front of things doesnt make a lot of sense because all of this hobbie probably comes from China? I think we all know we are paying a $100 for something that probably cost $10?

 

[RWFigarti]

Hi Guys,

On the subject of Chinese Sculptors my experience of them in general and our own team in particular is that they are some of the finest in the world – dedicated… creative… skilfull… and extremely hard working.



If, on occasion, they come up with sculpts that are sub standard and not equal to top-rate American or British sculptors it’s because : A) They have not been adequately briefed…B) Fully supplied with relevant visual information…and C) Properly supervised by creative people who know what they’re talking about…

It’s a wee bit like computers…”Rubbish In… Rubbish Out”.



Best wishes and…happy sculpting!



Andy C.

Agree 100% with Andy!

 

[jazzeum]

I think you go a little to far with the racist comments. I would say that since the market for these things is the U.S. and the UK why not promote the fact that your using American or British sculptors? Perhaps he should have stayed on this side of the fence but decided to poke at China. In addition I think the figures Britians makes will most likely end up manufactured in China. Fact is this. These things are made cheap as hell after the sculpts. Probably pennies on the dollar, to try and put this issue at the front of things doesnt make a lot of sense because all of this hobbie probably comes from China? I think we all know we are paying a $100 for something that probably cost $10?

The issue is that he went out of his way to mention China v. the west. What it costs to make these things are irrelevant to the discussion. BTW, this is a profit oriented society. People don't make things to sell them at a loss. There are many ways you can say something but he clearly posited it as a Chinese v. the west and put race at the forefront. If that's not clear as mud, then I don't know what is.

 

[wellington]

I personally don't care what Country these come from!!! I collect only the BEST (MY OPINION ONLY) and if the best comes from China then China it is...from what I've seen Andy and his team are the BEST in the world..... MY ADVICE TO OTHER TOY SOLDIER COMPANYS...ACTIONS SPEAK LOUDER THAN WORDS AND UNTIL THEN I'M NOT INTERRESTED!!! I work to hard for my money.......

One more thing if you are on a budget or a company doesn't make what you are collecting go else where...I did, I wanted Napoleoinc navy so I bought Britains Nelson Navy and I'm very happy with those as well!!

CHEERS
WELLINGTON

 

[King & Country]

Hi Guys,

A couple of comments on points raised in “TLP’s” post:

1) The market for toy soldiers/ military miniatures is for us at K&C growing on a world-wide basis. It’s definitely not just limited to only America and Britain. Some of our biggest and best dealers and collectors are in Asia and mainland Europe – particularly France and Italy.

2) Cost of labour and manufacturing in China. Yes, of course it is cheaper to manufacture in China. But for us and others a major part of the attraction is the availability of skilled labour at a price we and our customers can afford.

3) Our figures and vehicles are not, contrary to TLP’s conjecture, “cheap as hell after the sculpts” – I wish they were!

His further suggestion of approximately a ten times markup between manufacturing cost and final retail price is pure fantasy. But maybe he knows something that K&C…Frontline…East of India…Conte and Britains don’t.



If he does can he please let me know immediately so I can contact this factory and start making some humungous profits.



Best Christmas Wishes to one and all…



Andy C.

 

[jazzeum]

As usual, Andy is right on point and so is Wellington.

 

[TLP]

I would simply say to you list your cost then? Prove to us that there isnt a 100% mark up? List the dealers costs?


I am not attacking you Andy but simply stating a fact. That labor in China, Materials etc are far cheaper. If they can build a toaster, a microwave, shirts, pants, shoes for one tenth the cost I see no reason why the toy industry or collectors pieces would be much different? I dont know anything you dont know, no secrets.

In the end something is always woth what someone is willing to pay! Obviously you have no shortage of customers, and you have no shortage of talent. Its listed in almost every post on this site that you make the best figures etc in the business. That you are the pinnacle of the industry. In any case I apologize if you thought I was attacking you. I was trying to look at the post from Britians side of things, wondering why he would have chose to send this letter out, simply my guessing and opinion. Perhaps I am totally wrong and it was racist, perhaps it was a business ploy, if so no very effective again my opinion.The reason I would point you out would simply be that because you are on top any other manufacture would use K&C as a measuring stick, as well as a target.

 

[Njja]

Fortunately I have not been following this thread, but when I see a suggestion that Andy C. post his costs I feel the need to respond. As a businessman for quite a number of years, I can tell you Andy C.'s costs and labor situation are his concern and business only. There is no valid reason to even suggest he list such information.
King & Country produce a terrific product at a very fair market price, I am as concerned as the next customer about our hobby, but have nothing but confidence in the continued excellent production, and quality King & Country continues to make available to us.
If you are a competitor of King & Country do your own market research, and I don't think this forum is the place for that.
Njja

 

[wadepat]

Njja,

I fully agree with your comment concerning cost being Andy's private business and, as such, it should not be listed on this forum. I would add that such information is the private business of any toy soldier manufacturer. If it is important to an individual to learn that information, perhaps he/she should learn it firsthand by going into the business.

Warm regards,

Pat

 

[Gideon]

On that Civil War debate - I think Ken Osen makes the best Civil War figures whether it be for Britians or Conte. I never liked the K&C ACW figures. Not to be too critical but I thought they were kind of half a*sed.

Every company has to do certain ranges. Napoleonic and ACW especially. I thought K&Cs' offering was kind of like "me too" series.

Another point is this: If there is anyone out there who could revive Britians I strongly believe it is Richard Walker regardless of whatever comments.

He was responsible for the intial release of Britians matte figures, then for Conte and then helping out with Corgi's 1:32 military range - quite an impressive resume of porduction.

Give him a chance - I think that whatever he thinks up will greatly compliment King & Country offerings and even surprise us in some ways.

I am excited to carry the Britains range again once Richard gets stuff rolling. It's been a long time since we've seen quality coming from that name.

 

[BlackHat]

Getting back to the question of ACW figures, I would like to add my two cents. The Civil War is the primary focus of my collection, so I have seen the products of a number of makers up close.

I agree with Gideon's observation about Ken Osen's sculpting. Right now, I think the figures he does for Troiani are the best on the market.

I have some of the earlier Conte sets, but I'm not too happy with the direction the line has gone recently. Many of the new sets seem more theatrical -- and less historical -- for my taste.

At the Schaumberg show, I was able to look at some of the new lines coming out from Britains and Old Northwest Toy Company. Britains "Jackson in the Valley" series looks very exciting. The prototypes look excellent. What remains to be seen is the consistency of production.

ONWTC's upcoming Civil War series looks great too. Their artillery set -- Loomis' Battery at Perryville, is perhaps the best gun & crew set I've seen. They are also planning on issuing Federal troops in shell jackets. Imagine that -- someone making Union troops that are not Army of the Potomac! You mean the war wasn't fought completely in Virginia?! All in all, I hope that this will be a very attractive series.

On the glossy side, I don't collect as many of those figures, but I would like to mention several I admire.

Someone mentioned TedToy, by Ted Deddens. I have several of his sets. His "Camplife" series is one of the most creative series available. Ted does a great job of showing the quiet side of the confict.

Another manufacturer I admire is William Hocker. Although I don't have any of his ACW series, I do have a number of his Victorian British Army sets. Bill's soldiers are done in the old-style from the glory days of Britains. In my opinion, no one else captures the spirit and charm of the Golden Age of Toy Soldiers as well as Bill does. So, if you like that style, you might want to check out his work.

Just some thoughts,

Blackhat

 

[Digger]

ONWTC's upcoming Civil War series looks great too. Their artillery set -- Loomis' Battery at Perryville, is perhaps the best gun & crew set I've seen. They are also planning on issuing Federal troops in shell jackets. Imagine that -- someone making Union troops that are not Army of the Potomac! You mean the war wasn't fought completely in Virginia?! All in all, I hope that this will be a very attractive series.

Excuse me for being stupid but being new I am not familiar with all the manufacturer's yet. I am not familiar with this company. Where can I see their ACW products?