British Empire-For better of worse? (1 Viewer)

[Iron Duke]

One of my favourite eras to collect are the wars of the British Empire. At the risk of starting a huge fight{sm4}, what is your opinion on the British Empire? As an Australian with Anglo-Celtic heritage, and a die hard monarchist to boot, it has a sense of nostalgia for me. I know about all the dodgy stuff it did, but at the same time, the British did a better job with their colonies than the Dutch, French or Spanish. Thats the reason why Australia is in the top 10 most stable democracies, whilst Mexico, who has more natural resources and larger work force is racked with strife. I guess its the morals, systems of law, Westminster, and the crown that us Realms inherited that make us strong. How many Aussies, Canadians or New Zealanders here have an opinion on this?And for that matter what do our former colonial masters think

 

[waynepoo]

Good thread mate,
I was a strong republican until a few years ago I made myself more aware of the First A.I.F and my Grandfather and his two Brothers who served during the Great War. Over three hundred thousand volunteers (the only totally volunteer force of the war) willingly went off to fight for King and Country, for the Empire. Some may say they were mad to do so, this is not the forum to debate the pro's and con's of their reasons for going, I would suggest adventure was one of the main reasons. My point is: after learning all I could about the war , the A.I.F , and those men who served it changed my opinion of the British Empire. All of the dominions have become great free nations. No need to get into a long history debate here as all of us are aware of our origins as a nation. I agree with you, although I am not a monarchist and still a republican, I am proud of my Scottish ancestary and don't agree with the notion they we should somehow divorce ourselves from the past. I say I'm glad that I live in a nation that was/is part of the British Empire/Commonwealth. Lets just change the GG's name to President and leave our flag the way it is, too many have fought and died under it. That my opinion anyway.
Cheers, Waynepoo.

 

[The Military Workshop]

Iron Duke,
Definitely for the better. Although some of our American friends might have different views judging by 1776{sm4}.

Being also of British origin I have no problem with the monarchy or the current Aussie flag.

Interesting to note your image has the Australian and Tasmanian flags seperately.

Regards
Brett

 

[Mitch]

Definately for the better.
Mitch

 

[jazzeum]

As far as the United States goes, I would say it's a mixed bag. Although our culture is decidedly British in origin, it took a war to get our independence to get our rights, particularly the right of no taxation without representation.

Obviously, the War of 1812 was not for the better.

As far as some of the former colonies of Britain go, such as India and Kenya, it would probably also be a mixed bag. However, when it comes to dealing with natives peoples, the United States included, many a Western country has a chequered history.

 

[lancer]

We Yanks have had a bit of a disagreement with the British Empire on occasion, but they got ironed out and now we are bestest buddies. :smile2: -- Al

 

[Partner]

For the better . I am a believer in symbols and traditions and what they represent . I am monarchist and I believe the recent restoration of the term "Royal"to the Canadian Navy and Air Force was a good represenation of their proud histories

Kirk

 

[Scott]

We Yanks have had a bit of a disagreement with the British Empire on occasion, but they got ironed out and now we are bestest buddies. :smile2: -- Al

It's like we are Tom Sawyer and the Brits are cousin Sid who all the grown-ups like.

 

[theBaron]

Definitely for the better. We Amero-Britons have a unique political heritage, distinct from those of the other European countries, and which is embodied in the English Enlightenment and writers like John Locke. You can make a case that our Revolution was the fulfillment, or the culmination, of the ideas that developed in the English Enlightenment. The emphasis is on the individual, whose rights derive from his Creator, or from Nature if you will, not from any government, and so, there is a healthy distrust of the State, or the mob. It is the best political philosophy, of any that have evolved so far, and it has been a net positive, where it has been transplanted and taken root.

 

[theBaron]

Also, no offense meant to Her Majesty, but I still prefer that we elect our head of state, though.

Prost!
Brad

 

[Rob]

I guess regular viewers would expect me to jump in with both Union Jacked painted Wellington boots here!. But I agree with almost all the points raised including the fact that there was good and bad in the empire. But I want to say something that may anger my American fellow forum members......kidding!!^&grin:wink2: I LOVE AMERICA!!!^&cool{bravo}} The people, the food. the weather and the history . If I had to move abroard I'd be stateside bound, although a cottage on the Somme in France would be a close second :wink2: .The 'special' relationship, although perhaps a cliched term now, actually means something. The US and GB stood together in the two world wars despite having fallen out rather badly in 1776, they were at the heart of the allied nations that finally triumphed. I have nothing but admiration for their effort in both wars and as our allies ever since. As Louis once said to me, we are like family, sometimes we annoy each other and may bicker, but when it comes down to it we are there when it counts.

Even as a very proud Brit I can happily acknowledge things that were a disgrace in our history, our involvement in the slave trade and forcing people from other nations into slavery is a dark dark shadow from the past, however happily we finally saw the error of our ways and it was abolished .

Rob

 

[debrito]

I guess regular viewers would expect me to jump in with both Union Jacked painted Wellington boots here!. But I agree with almost all the points raised including the fact that there was good and bad in the empire. But I want to say something that may anger my American fellow forum members......kidding!!^&grin:wink2: I LOVE AMERICA!!!^&cool{bravo}} The people, the food. the weather and the history . If I had to move abroard I'd be stateside bound, although a cottage on the Somme in France would be a close second :wink2: .The 'special' relationship, although perhaps a cliched term now, actually means something. The US and GB stood together in the two world wars despite having fallen out rather badly in 1776, they were at the heart of the allied nations that finally triumphed. I have nothing but admiration for their effort in both wars and as our allies ever since. As Louis once said to me, we are like family, sometimes we annoy each other and may bicker, but when it comes down to it we are there when it counts.

Even as a very proud Brit I can happily acknowledge things that were a disgrace in our history, our involvement in the slave trade and forcing people from other nations into slavery is a dark dark shadow from the past, however happily we finally saw the error of our ways and it was abolished .

Rob

the food

Are you Crazy.....


I am JOKING..........................................

 

[Rob]

the food

Are you Crazy.....


I am JOKING..........................................

^&grin

Rod, I love their cheesecake I'm afraid, I then have to come home and hit the roads to run it off again:rolleyes2:

Rob

 

[Mitch]

Rob...

That answer could have come straight from the consular book of how to appease the colonial folks!!! While I agree with some of the things we did in our past, being looked at now in a different light, I would not go as far as to say they were a disgrace to our nation. We did what was seen at that time as best for our country and, it was the way that things were done. No more no less.
Mitch

I guess regular viewers would expect me to jump in with both Union Jacked painted Wellington boots here!. But I agree with almost all the points raised including the fact that there was good and bad in the empire. But I want to say something that may anger my American fellow forum members......kidding!!^&grin:wink2: I LOVE AMERICA!!!^&cool{bravo}} The people, the food. the weather and the history . If I had to move abroard I'd be stateside bound, although a cottage on the Somme in France would be a close second :wink2: .The 'special' relationship, although perhaps a cliched term now, actually means something. The US and GB stood together in the two world wars despite having fallen out rather badly in 1776, they were at the heart of the allied nations that finally triumphed. I have nothing but admiration for their effort in both wars and as our allies ever since. As Louis once said to me, we are like family, sometimes we annoy each other and may bicker, but when it comes down to it we are there when it counts.

Even as a very proud Brit I can happily acknowledge things that were a disgrace in our history, our involvement in the slave trade and forcing people from other nations into slavery is a dark dark shadow from the past, however happily we finally saw the error of our ways and it was abolished .

Rob

 

[Rob]

Whilst I understand what you mean Mitch, I do sometimes think the ' whats right now and what was right then ' statement is sometimes used entirely out of context, I think we can all agree that slavery was a disgrace and the Brits who made fortunes from it and those of other nations who did it knew it was obscene. Intellligent, campaigning men not wrapped up in the trade knew it had to stop and thank god for them . I think we can stand up and be proud of the Empire whilst at the same time say how obscene the slave trade was, it was about the few making fortunes from the lives of misery of others, nothing noble about it. But as I say, there's no angst or grinding of nashers, its one of those things that is now in the past , lots of good things about the Empire too.

As for playing to the colonials, half my family is American and I love the place, so I guess I am !:smile2::wink2:

Rob

 

[UK_BOD]

On the whole the British Empire was for the better IMHO. Though I look at some of our Colonial history with contempt, I believe that we were a force for good. I know some of you have remarked ' what's right now and what was right then ' but history has to be taken in context. The British were downright liberal compared with the majority of colonial powers. Most of the countries which run up against the Brits were far worse than we could ever be. If you look at the British Imperial Govenors during the 19th Century the majority cared for their native populations which to be honest a number of the present rulers of these countries do not!

I may be biased but hey I'm British.

I fully support the Queen. In a world where many World figures are nobodies, she stands head and shoulders above them all.

Reference Americans, I have had the pleasure to work in a number of places around our globe where I have been a token Brit amongst our American cousins and it has been with no word of a lie a downright honour. I have made many friends and in amongst some interesting moments had some hilarious times (Hershey bars - Yuck!!!!!!! and what is it with M&M's and peanut cookies).

Andy

 

[Currahee Chris]

...but at the same time, the British did a better job with their colonies than the Dutch, French or Spanish. Thats the reason why Australia is in the top 10 most stable democracies, whilst Mexico, who has more natural resources and larger work force is racked with strife.

I try to get into fistfights with British people whenever I can because they forced Culture Club, the Nanny, Simon Cowell, the Spice Girls (with the exception of Ginger), warm disgusting lager, SOCCER and about 15,000 other snoooty reality shows on myself and my fellow Americans!! {sm4}{sm4} Culture Club alone was enough to make me want to take up arms!!

Of course, then again my favorite rock band (Iron Maiden) is British so it's all good in the end.

Interesting you mention this point though as I used to audit the Inter America Defense Board in DC. This is a political organization similar in purpose to the UN except it focuses on the needs of central and south american countries. A gentleman I worked with from Mexico literally made that exact same comment as you- he also added that all the roads the Spanish created were created with the intent of stealing the natural resources and transporting them to the coast for shipment back to Spain. Admittedly, I think you do somewhat oversimplify the issues in Mexico.

 

[Jack]

The question of 'good' and 'bad' is always problematic given that they are such vague terms in themselves. As an Australian by birth and a firm monarchist by inclination I see the Empire both as a force for good in what it did, but more importantly, a force for good in what it prevented. It is a sad truth that it is far easier to stand for something than it is to stand against something - it is easy in an abstract sense to say 'I believe in democracy' but far more difficult to take a stand and say 'state sposored terrorism, Nazism (fill in your favourite enemy here) is wrong and though my country is imperfect, this is an issue worthy of the sacrafice of our human treasure and our physical resources.' At some point a country or a culture needs to believe enough in itself and its way of life to stand and say 'this is wrong and cannot continue'.

On this measurement the Empire has been a force for good - it has consistently stood for values that are central to the inalienable rights that our American cousins still, to their undying credit, value so much. To point at the bad is merely to indicate that all human endeavour is imperfect. On that standard all our toy manufactureres should be sacked for when have the brought out the perfect piece, at the perfect time, at the perfect price? Indeed I have become convinced that if we held our elected politicians as accountable as our toy soldier manufactueres it would be a better world.

So what then has the Empire prevented, or helped to prevent (just three - nobody likes a really long thread!)

It helped maintain a balance of power in Europe for centuries. Admittedly they have done this through war and trade but if they must take the blame for accidental wrong, they can take credit for unforseen good;
It spread liberalism and the rule of law to countries which would now be better off if they were still subject to the 'imperial yoke'.
The defeat of Imperial Germany and then later Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan should, almost in themselves, negate all of the 'bad'. Churchill liked to talk things up, but when he said in a thousand years people will see the summer of 1940 as their finest hour, he spoke the truth. A little island standing almost alone, yet at the head of a vast empire, and saying to the Germans 'bring it on' makes it impossible for me to thing ill of this heart of Empire, despite the cooking and the weather. My one regret about being an Australian, apart from the humidity and all of New South Wales, is the lack of a moment when war became a moral decision as much as one of courage and patriotism.

There was a time when we believed the sun would never set on the British Empire (the joke was, of course, that this was because even God was a bit wary of the English in the dark) and it is a shame that what the Empire once meant has passed into history.

 

[Louis Badolato]

We Yanks have had a bit of a disagreement with the British Empire on occasion, but they got ironed out and now we are bestest buddies. :smile2: -- Al

I visited the Tower of London in 2003, and the Beefeater giving me the tour told me the United States had divorced Great Britain in 1776. I told him maybe so, but my Uncles paid alimony and child support in blood in 1918 and 1944, so we should be (and are) on excellent terms.

 

[Iron Duke]

Interesting you mention this point though as I used to audit the Inter America Defense Board in DC. This is a political organization similar in purpose to the UN except it focuses on the needs of central and south american countries. A gentleman I worked with from Mexico literally made that exact same comment as you- he also added that all the roads the Spanish created were created with the intent of stealing the natural resources and transporting them to the coast for shipment back to Spain.

I heard a story about ''New Spain'' in the 18th century. The Spanish took so much gold back from there to Spain, that with their poor knowledge of economics ,the value of gold went into free fall But it is true that British towards the end of the 19th century, were actually in the gig for money, but they also looked after the natives and for the most part respected their beliefs. Indian Empire Sikh and Hindu regiments were allowed to mainted their beliefs for example.