British Empire-For better of worse? (2 Viewers)

[Scott]

.......
I fully support the Queen. In a world where many World figures are nobodies, she stands head and shoulders above them all........

Well yes. She is a "class act" but she did inherit the job and would have even if she had been a ditzy playgirl rather than the dignified lady she is. "Nobodies" as you say could be anyone from career civil servants to dictator "colonels" to successful business or political figures that succeeded in a meritocracy.

 

[Scott]

I heard a story about ''New Spain'' in the 18th century. The Spanish took so much gold back from there to Spain, that with their poor knowledge of economics ,the value of gold went into free fall But it is true that British towards the end of the 19th century, were actually in the gig for money, but they also looked after the natives and for the most part respected their beliefs. Indian Empire Sikh and Hindu regiments were allowed to mainted their beliefs for example.

I used to work with an Indian gentleman who assured me the Enfield cartridges were really greased with animal fat. This was in the 1900s.

 

[waynepoo]

The question of 'good' and 'bad' is always problematic given that they are such vague terms in themselves. As an Australian by birth and a firm monarchist by inclination I see the Empire both as a force for good in what it did, but more importantly, a force for good in what it prevented. It is a sad truth that it is far easier to stand for something than it is to stand against something - it is easy in an abstract sense to say 'I believe in democracy' but far more difficult to take a stand and say 'state sposored terrorism, Nazism (fill in your favourite enemy here) is wrong and though my country is imperfect, this is an issue worthy of the sacrafice of our human treasure and our physical resources.' At some point a country or a culture needs to believe enough in itself and its way of life to stand and say 'this is wrong and cannot continue'.

On this measurement the Empire has been a force for good - it has consistently stood for values that are central to the inalienable rights that our American cousins still, to their undying credit, value so much. To point at the bad is merely to indicate that all human endeavour is imperfect. On that standard all our toy manufactureres should be sacked for when have the brought out the perfect piece, at the perfect time, at the perfect price? Indeed I have become convinced that if we held our elected politicians as accountable as our toy soldier manufactueres it would be a better world.

So what then has the Empire prevented, or helped to prevent (just three - nobody likes a really long thread!)

It helped maintain a balance of power in Europe for centuries. Admittedly they have done this through war and trade but if they must take the blame for accidental wrong, they can take credit for unforseen good;
It spread liberalism and the rule of law to countries which would now be better off if they were still subject to the 'imperial yoke'.
The defeat of Imperial Germany and then later Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan should, almost in themselves, negate all of the 'bad'. Churchill liked to talk things up, but when he said in a thousand years people will see the summer of 1940 as their finest hour, he spoke the truth. A little island standing almost alone, yet at the head of a vast empire, and saying to the Germans 'bring it on' makes it impossible for me to thing ill of this heart of Empire, despite the cooking and the weather. My one regret about being an Australian, apart from the humidity and all of New South Wales, is the lack of a moment when war became a moral decision as much as one of courage and patriotism.

There was a time when we believed the sun would never set on the British Empire (the joke was, of course, that this was because even God was a bit wary of the English in the dark) and it is a shame that what the Empire once meant has passed into history.

Jack,
Sir, very well put and I agree totally, New South Wales is also one of my regrets.:
Poo.

 

[larso]

"Indeed I have become convinced that if we held our elected politicians as accountable as our toy soldier manufactueres it would be a better world."

Brilliant!

 

[Rob]

On the whole the British Empire was for the better IMHO. Though I look at some of our Colonial history with contempt, I believe that we were a force for good. I know some of you have remarked ' what's right now and what was right then ' but history has to be taken in context. The British were downright liberal compared with the majority of colonial powers. Most of the countries which run up against the Brits were far worse than we could ever be. If you look at the British Imperial Govenors during the 19th Century the majority cared for their native populations which to be honest a number of the present rulers of these countries do not!

I may be biased but hey I'm British.

I fully support the Queen. In a world where many World figures are nobodies, she stands head and shoulders above them all.

Reference Americans, I have had the pleasure to work in a number of places around our globe where I have been a token Brit amongst our American cousins and it has been with no word of a lie a downright honour. I have made many friends and in amongst some interesting moments had some hilarious times (Hershey bars - Yuck!!!!!!! and what is it with M&M's and peanut cookies).

Andy

Well said Andy.^&cool

I try to get into fistfights with British people whenever I can because they forced Culture Club, the Nanny, Simon Cowell, the Spice Girls (with the exception of Ginger), warm disgusting lager, SOCCER and about 15,000 other snoooty reality shows on myself and my fellow Americans!! {sm4}{sm4} Culture Club alone was enough to make me want to take up arms!!

Of course, then again my favorite rock band (Iron Maiden) is British so it's all good in the end.

Interesting you mention this point though as I used to audit the Inter America Defense Board in DC. This is a political organization similar in purpose to the UN except it focuses on the needs of central and south american countries. A gentleman I worked with from Mexico literally made that exact same comment as you- he also added that all the roads the Spanish created were created with the intent of stealing the natural resources and transporting them to the coast for shipment back to Spain. Admittedly, I think you do somewhat oversimplify the issues in Mexico.

My friend if its any consolation, you did in return send us Dick Van Dyke, who scarred a generation with his 'Cockerney' accent , Ellen Degeneres dancing, Tony Bennet, floppy uncooked hot dog sausages , and unexplained tv credits half way into a programme. BUT you also sent us The Simpsons, The office an American Work place, Jen Aniston and several million liberating troops in WW2. So we'll call it quits!^&grin

The question of 'good' and 'bad' is always problematic given that they are such vague terms in themselves. As an Australian by birth and a firm monarchist by inclination I see the Empire both as a force for good in what it did, but more importantly, a force for good in what it prevented. It is a sad truth that it is far easier to stand for something than it is to stand against something - it is easy in an abstract sense to say 'I believe in democracy' but far more difficult to take a stand and say 'state sposored terrorism, Nazism (fill in your favourite enemy here) is wrong and though my country is imperfect, this is an issue worthy of the sacrafice of our human treasure and our physical resources.' At some point a country or a culture needs to believe enough in itself and its way of life to stand and say 'this is wrong and cannot continue'.

On this measurement the Empire has been a force for good - it has consistently stood for values that are central to the inalienable rights that our American cousins still, to their undying credit, value so much. To point at the bad is merely to indicate that all human endeavour is imperfect. On that standard all our toy manufactureres should be sacked for when have the brought out the perfect piece, at the perfect time, at the perfect price? Indeed I have become convinced that if we held our elected politicians as accountable as our toy soldier manufactueres it would be a better world.

So what then has the Empire prevented, or helped to prevent (just three - nobody likes a really long thread!)

It helped maintain a balance of power in Europe for centuries. Admittedly they have done this through war and trade but if they must take the blame for accidental wrong, they can take credit for unforseen good;
It spread liberalism and the rule of law to countries which would now be better off if they were still subject to the 'imperial yoke'.
The defeat of Imperial Germany and then later Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan should, almost in themselves, negate all of the 'bad'. Churchill liked to talk things up, but when he said in a thousand years people will see the summer of 1940 as their finest hour, he spoke the truth. A little island standing almost alone, yet at the head of a vast empire, and saying to the Germans 'bring it on' makes it impossible for me to thing ill of this heart of Empire, despite the cooking and the weather. My one regret about being an Australian, apart from the humidity and all of New South Wales, is the lack of a moment when war became a moral decision as much as one of courage and patriotism.

There was a time when we believed the sun would never set on the British Empire (the joke was, of course, that this was because even God was a bit wary of the English in the dark) and it is a shame that what the Empire once meant has passed into history.

Excellent post AND LOVE the English in the dark joke, me and the missus are still laughing at that one!:wink2:

Rob

 

[Jack]

"Indeed I have become convinced that if we held our elected politicians as accountable as our toy soldier manufactueres it would be a better world."

Brilliant!

Well at least that is a change from your usual 'nice pics' or 'nice diorama' addition to the discussions!

 

[Scott]

Well at least that is a change from your usual 'nice pics' or 'nice diorama' addition to the discussions!

Coffee on key board!

 

[larso]

"Well at least that is a change from your usual 'nice pics' or 'nice diorama' addition to the discussions!"

Ditto!!

 

[Martin Tabony]

The question of 'good' and 'bad' is always problematic given that they are such vague terms in themselves. As an Australian by birth and a firm monarchist by inclination I see the Empire both as a force for good in what it did, but more importantly, a force for good in what it prevented. It is a sad truth that it is far easier to stand for something than it is to stand against something - it is easy in an abstract sense to say 'I believe in democracy' but far more difficult to take a stand and say 'state sposored terrorism, Nazism (fill in your favourite enemy here) is wrong and though my country is imperfect, this is an issue worthy of the sacrafice of our human treasure and our physical resources.' At some point a country or a culture needs to believe enough in itself and its way of life to stand and say 'this is wrong and cannot continue'.

On this measurement the Empire has been a force for good - it has consistently stood for values that are central to the inalienable rights that our American cousins still, to their undying credit, value so much. To point at the bad is merely to indicate that all human endeavour is imperfect. On that standard all our toy manufactureres should be sacked for when have the brought out the perfect piece, at the perfect time, at the perfect price? Indeed I have become convinced that if we held our elected politicians as accountable as our toy soldier manufactueres it would be a better world.

So what then has the Empire prevented, or helped to prevent (just three - nobody likes a really long thread!)

It helped maintain a balance of power in Europe for centuries. Admittedly they have done this through war and trade but if they must take the blame for accidental wrong, they can take credit for unforseen good;
It spread liberalism and the rule of law to countries which would now be better off if they were still subject to the 'imperial yoke'.
The defeat of Imperial Germany and then later Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan should, almost in themselves, negate all of the 'bad'. Churchill liked to talk things up, but when he said in a thousand years people will see the summer of 1940 as their finest hour, he spoke the truth. A little island standing almost alone, yet at the head of a vast empire, and saying to the Germans 'bring it on' makes it impossible for me to thing ill of this heart of Empire, despite the cooking and the weather. My one regret about being an Australian, apart from the humidity and all of New South Wales, is the lack of a moment when war became a moral decision as much as one of courage and patriotism.

There was a time when we believed the sun would never set on the British Empire (the joke was, of course, that this was because even God was a bit wary of the English in the dark) and it is a shame that what the Empire once meant has passed into history.

Excellent post Sir, but two points, the food is getting better and as Billy Connolly says "There's no such thing as bad weather, just the wrong clothes"!

Martin

 

[Jack]

Excellent post Sir, but two points, the food is getting better and as Billy Connolly says "There's no such thing as bad weather, just the wrong clothes"!

Martin

I once read a list of the modern world's great inventors and it is dominated to an incredible extent by Scotsmen, presumably like Connolly, who were stuck indoors for nine months a year with little to do other than invent things. Now there is a thread - name great inventions by Scotsmen!

 

[waynepoo]

I once read a list of the modern world's great inventors and it is dominated to an incredible extent by Scotsmen, presumably like Connolly, who were stuck indoors for nine months a year with little to do other than invent things. Now there is a thread - name great inventions by Scotsmen!

Would the Kilt qualify???^&confuse{sm2}
Poo.

 

[Martin Tabony]

I once read a list of the modern world's great inventors and it is dominated to an incredible extent by Scotsmen, presumably like Connolly, who were stuck indoors for nine months a year with little to do other than invent things. Now there is a thread - name great inventions by Scotsmen!

This is Northumberland, if they get independance we'll be too busy building a fence!^&grin

Martin

 

[waynepoo]

This is Northumberland, if they get independance we'll be too busy building a fence!^&grin

Martin

Martin, no offence, but where is Northumberland??? and do they play cricket ???{sm4}:wink2:
Cheers,
Poo.

 

[theBaron]

Martin, no offence, but where is Northumberland??? and do they play cricket ???{sm4}:wink2:
Cheers,
Poo.

It's on the Susquehanna, across from Sunbury, at the confluence of the North and West branches of the river. If you look at the bluff overlooking the river, you see the profile of the great Indian chief Shikallemy.

Joseph Priestly settled there in 1794 and lived there till his death in 1804. It's also the birthplace of USAAF General Uzal G. Ent, who led one of the Ploesti missions, and who selected Colonel Paul Tibbets to lead the new 509th Composite BG, which carried out the A-bomb missions. Tibbet's navigator on the Hiroshima flight, Ted "Dutch" Van Kirk, is also a native.

It's also home to Weis Markets.

Ask me how I know--my dad is from there. No cricket, though--they play baseball.

Chuck Robinson's Red Lancers shop is also a few miles north of Northumberland, in Milton, PA.

Prost!
Brad

 

[waynepoo]

Brad,
A good example of the past influence of the British Empire is British place names, I sure you would find a Northumberland in Australia, New Zealand, Canada, South Africa, India and the West Indies and else where in the U.S, be it a town, a street/road, a park, a river, a mountain or hill, in many ways the sun still has no set on the old British Empire.^&cool
Poo.

 

[Scott]

Brad,
A good example of the past influence of the British Empire is British place names, I sure you would find a Northumberland in Australia, New Zealand, Canada, South Africa, India and the West Indies and else where in the U.S, be it a town, a street/road, a park, a river, a mountain or hill, in many ways the sun still has no set on the old British Empire.^&cool
Poo.

Heck, we have Gloucester, Manchester, Essex, and Ispwich just within walking distance. Boston and Cambridge a short ride away. Plymouth a little further.

 

[waynepoo]

There you go, we have a Ipswich near by also, they did get around a bit didn't they, must have been the English weather.^&grin
Poo.

 

[BHogan]

I am a proud Canadian and I am quite proud of our countries attachment to the UK and the monarchy. The unification of the forces in the 60's and the changing of the nation's flag to the Maple Leaf from the Red Ensign I think were very foolish decisions that disrespected those who fought in the Boer War, First and Second World War and finally Korea under the ensign. As for the empire being a force for good or evil at its peak it certainly brought order and stability to the world that we are sadly lacking now with former colonies like India and Pakistan in the middle of a power struggle. British historian Niall Ferguson has a documentary on youtube about the history of the empire. Here is the link to the first video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSbMBh0YC1c His conclusion is that the Empire basically paved the way for world wide capitalism, the dominance of the English language, soccer (or football should I say) and liberal democracy which are things we see as good. He does explore the empires darker moments though like the slave trade and the decolonization of India. Overall a very interesting series.

 

[Martin Tabony]

It's on the Susquehanna, across from Sunbury, at the confluence of the North and West branches of the river. If you look at the bluff overlooking the river, you see the profile of the great Indian chief Shikallemy.

Joseph Priestly settled there in 1794 and lived there till his death in 1804. It's also the birthplace of USAAF General Uzal G. Ent, who led one of the Ploesti missions, and who selected Colonel Paul Tibbets to lead the new 509th Composite BG, which carried out the A-bomb missions. Tibbet's navigator on the Hiroshima flight, Ted "Dutch" Van Kirk, is also a native.

It's also home to Weis Markets.

Ask me how I know--my dad is from there. No cricket, though--they play baseball.

Chuck Robinson's Red Lancers shop is also a few miles north of Northumberland, in Milton, PA.

Prost!
Brad

I have no idea where you're talking about but I assume it was named after the original. I live in the English county of Northumberland we are the most northerly English county and of course we border Scotland. At the northern most point is Berwick which I assume you've heard of and the southern point is the river Tyne and Hadrian's Wall.

Martin

 

[theBaron]

I have no idea where you're talking about but I assume it was named after the original. I live in the English county of Northumberland we are the most northerly English county and of course we border Scotland. At the northern most point is Berwick which I assume you've heard of and the southern point is the river Tyne and Hadrian's Wall.

Martin

Of course! I was teasing a little, since Wayne was obviously asking about his Northumberland (or maybe the original). I figured my fellow Keystone Staters would appreciate the play on the names

You're correct, too, it was named for the original county in the mother country, very familiar with it. Our other original counties here are also named for places in our ancestral homeland, too--Bucks, for Buckingham, Chester, Lancaster and York, Montgomery and Cambria (a nod to the Welsh), Northampton, Berks (for Berkshire). On the other hand, we've got counties named for Indian names, naturally--Lehigh, Tioga, Wyoming. Towns, with Indian names, too: Macungie ("Bear Swamp"), Unami ("Turtle"), Hokendaqua, Catasauqua, Mauch Chunk, Shamokin.

A nod to the Moravians who settled here in the Lehigh Valley. They named Bethlehem, Nazareth and Emmaus.

And a nod to the German kings sitting on the British throne--We have Hanover and New Hanover Townships, and a couple Brunswicks, and in a tribute to our ally in the French and Indian Wars, Frederick, and King of Prussia, PA.

And our office state dance is the polka, prosit!
Brad