Capturing the Colors (1 Viewer)

[Peter Reuss]

Every time I read about ACW (and earlier) wars, huge emphasis is always placed on the colors. Soldiers would do about anything to save their colors, and conversely they would sacrifice much to capture someone else's. It was an enormous honor to capture then and the ultimate shame to lose them.

Just curious, what would the 20th century equivalent to this be? Is there one?

 

[Scott]

For artillery, it's the guns.

 

[Combat]

Maybe capturing individuals - like Saddam or Bin Laden.

 

[Scott]

I saw a set of miniatures of US troops capturing Bin Laden. Can't remember the maker.

 

[DCN1898]

The huge emphasis on the colors in earlier times was due to the fact that the colors was your guide and rally point. In the smoke and noise of battle, if the colors went down/captured it would throw the whole regiment into confusion as to where each soldier in the ranks belonged. Having the colors up and conspicuous was the most dangerous because capture of the enemy's colors meant a decided edge them. In modern times I think the equivalent would be to disrupt communications. It's not as glorious as capturing the colors but I does give you a decided edge in battle if you can communicate and the enemy can't i.e. Desert Storm.

 

[Peter Reuss]

I saw a set of miniatures of US troops capturing Bin Laden. Can't remember the maker.

K&C did that set as part of their SF series.

 

[Peter Reuss]

The huge emphasis on the colors in earlier times was due to the fact that the colors was your guide and rally point. In the smoke and noise of battle, if the colors went down/captured it would throw the whole regiment into confusion as to where each soldier in the ranks belonged. Having the colors up and conspicuous was the most dangerous because capture of the enemy's colors meant a decided edge them. In modern times I think the equivalent would be to disrupt communications. It's not as glorious as capturing the colors but I does give you a decided edge in battle if you can communicate and the enemy can't i.e. Desert Storm.

Good point! A bit harder to parade a radio jammer, though...

 

[6th Wisconsin]

I think capturing the colors or holding the colors also had a lot of symbolic meaning too. The flag embodied the regiment - think about all the ceremony that went into the regimental flag and presenting it to the regiment. It definitely was matched by the guns for an artillery unit. There was always a bit of shame in losing either, and think of all the vets of the ACW who took bits of a flag home with them. Nevertheless, it seems amazing today to think of how many won the Medal of Honor by capturing a flag. I guess it shows they were in the thick of the fighting and went a little farther than most.

I am not sure there is a modern equivalent. Maybe capturing a major leader or officer.

 

[The Military Workshop]

Capturing Paris !

 

[VanguardFC007]

I think by World War Two it had become more of a souvenir type thing. I have a picture of my grandfather with a buddy of his and theyre holding a captured Japanese flag that was signed by a whole unit. I think the buddy must've gotten the flag because it was no where amongst my grandfather's belongings from the war.

 

[DCN1898]

I think that it was a souvenir thing in WWII. Japanese civilians gave a lot of small flags the loved ones in the military. I had an uncle who took a Nazi flag from a public building in Germany. Although for pomp and circumstance in regards to captured flags in WWII it was pretty cool to see film of the Soviet victory parade in Red Square with the Soviet soldiers tossing the Nazi flags into a pile.

 

[Phantom Warrior]

Every time I read about ACW (and earlier) wars, huge emphasis is always placed on the colors. Soldiers would do about anything to save their colors, and conversely they would sacrifice much to capture someone else's. It was an enormous honor to capture then and the ultimate shame to lose them.

Just curious, what would the 20th century equivalent to this be? Is there one?

Probably not. The closest I can think of 21st century would be to captur (take control of) the enemies internet.

Terry

 

[The Military Workshop]

Thought about this one a bit more and I think that the nearest modern version to capturing the colours is the Rescue or attempted rescue. Think Black Hawk Down, Iranian Embassy, Entebbe.
Regards
Brett

 

[Spitfrnd]

Thought about this one a bit more and I think that the nearest modern version to capturing the colours is the Rescue or attempted rescue. Think Black Hawk Down, Iranian Embassy, Entebbe.
Regards
Brett

I don't know Brett but those strike me as much harder and much more rare. One of Fredrick the Greats Units once captured 66 colors in a single battle.

 

[The Military Workshop]

66 ! Which battle was that ?
Since colors not carried in modern warfare I was trying to come up with a modern equivalent. Other than colours capturing a General might count as they should be hard to get to unless trying to surrender (don't tell me how many were captured at Stalingrad !!!).
Regards
Brett

 

[Wraith]

As unsavoury as it is, in todays modern conflicts in the middle east, the capture of colors could be equated to the capture of ISAF soldiers. Linking back to Bretts BHD and 'no one gets left behind', look at the extrordinary efforts to ensure that all personnel are accounted for and gotten back, quite rightly.

In todays conflicts where half the battle seems to be won or lost via the media, any capture can be manipulated in to a huge propoganda victory.

AQ and the likes will use this kind of sick publicity to recruit and convert. On the flip side, look at the positive media (in terms of support for our troops) where rescue missions have been launched to get our troops back.

My thoughts,

Simon

 

[Spitfrnd]

66 ! Which battle was that ?
Since colors not carried in modern warfare I was trying to come up with a modern equivalent. Other than colours capturing a General might count as they should be hard to get to unless trying to surrender (don't tell me how many were captured at Stalingrad !!!).
Regards
Brett

I don't remember the exact battle, or even for sure if it was only one or a campaign but I am pretty sure it was a dragoon regiment. Either way it is pretty impressive. Then again Frederick's Army was impressive for its time. Capturing colors was decidedly more difficult in the Napoleonic Wars.

 

[Peter Reuss]

As unsavoury as it is, in todays modern conflicts in the middle east, the capture of colors could be equated to the capture of ISAF soldiers. Linking back to Bretts BHD and 'no one gets left behind', look at the extrordinary efforts to ensure that all personnel are accounted for and gotten back, quite rightly.

In todays conflicts where half the battle seems to be won or lost via the media, any capture can be manipulated in to a huge propoganda victory.

AQ and the likes will use this kind of sick publicity to recruit and convert. On the flip side, look at the positive media (in terms of support for our troops) where rescue missions have been launched to get our troops back.

My thoughts,

Simon

Good thought. The colors used to symbolize the whole regiment...now one person can symbolize it.

I'd been thinking of a war like WWII, but in today's battle realities, just one person is all it takes.

On the flip side, when we capture or kill an AQ leader, we trumpet that the world too.

 

[glossman]

Historical Note:

The last time the Sovereign's and Regimental Colours were carried into battle by the British Army was by the 58th Regiment of Foot (later the 2nd Battalion, The Northamptonshire Regiment) at Laing's Nek, 1st Anglo Boer War on 28th January 1881.

Lieutenant Alan Hill of the 58th Regiment was the Ensign entrusted to carry the Queen's Colour. He was awarded the Victoria Cross for rescuing the mortally wounded Lieutenant James Baillie who was carrying the Regimental Colour.

Best, Raymond.

*

 

[trooper]

Another Historical Note
During the American Civil War the capture of a Confederate colour was rewarded with the Congressional Medal of Honour. Tom Custer, one of the few men to win two Medals, gained both of his by capturing colours. Wounded in the face he returned with one and was then about to return to the action when his brother, the famous George Armstrong Custer, told him to report to the surgeon for treatment. Tom refused and was about to set off again so George put him under arrest and had him forcibly removed for treatment.