Cassino (1 Viewer)

[Poppo]

The battle of Montecassino was the most important and dramatic one in the italian campaign, and one of the biggest fought by the allies.

During 119 days a group of german divisions, tired, with few supplies and ammunitions, without the help of the air force, almost without tanks, stood up in Cassino to the most powerful war machine that the allies had put in Europe till that time.

The " Gustav" line became with the time a reason for the nazi propaganda to prove that the german soldier could resist with his willpower against huge forces ( and to Churchill a reason to be mad).
The hard mountains, the terrible weather, the raged german resistance and organization in the defense was a nightmare for the allies: the powerful bombings ( unlike Normandy) and the tanks were almost unuseful to break the german resistence so the allies units had to fight house to house in Cassino town, and along the narrow paths leading to the abbey. Allies soldiers fought with braveness and sacrifice as the germans did. Many mistakes were done, like the bombing of the abbey which let the germans create massive defenses in the ruins ( the lesson of Stalingrad was not learned), as well as the many ,unuseful and bloody attacks against almost impregnable german positions where the german parachutists made the biggest work.

This battle was long and terrible, much more than Market Garden(MG: about 18000 allies losses and 4-8000 germans; Cassino: about 125000 allies losses and about 12000 germans).

In my opinion it deserves a line of TS much more than MG, but it is not so...One more mistery to solve {sm2}

 

[larso]

Yes, it's a suggestion I've made before. It'd be great to see a line done based on units in Italy, which would be a nice change to France/Holland/Belgium. And at its heart would be 1st Para which should be a real winner.

 

[Jack]

Yes, it's a suggestion I've made before. It'd be great to see a line done based on units in Italy, which would be a nice change to France/Holland/Belgium. And at its heart would be 1st Para which should be a real winner.

Yes - the Paras would be a completely uncontroversial addition to any line. {sm4}

 

[TomNT]

Yes - the Paras would be a completely uncontroversial addition to any line. {sm4}

Oh no, now your done it, this will open the floodgates!!! {eek3}{sm4}

Tom

 

[RPZ]

To me the German paras were pound for pound one of, if not the best, fighting units of the war. Their defense of Cassino and Brest are two examples where they really showed their fighting spirit and discipline.

 

[TomB]

To me the German paras were pound for pound one of, if not the best, fighting units of the war. Their defense of Cassino and Brest are two examples where they really showed their fighting spirit and discipline.

I could be wrong...but i read somewhere after Hitler forbade any further airbourne ops...the German para to keep up to strength accepted a lot of unlikely soldiers from vastly different non infantry corps but it did not effect their ability to fight.....cheers TomB

 

[RPZ]

I could be wrong...but i read somewhere after Hitler forbade any further airbourne ops...the German para to keep up to strength accepted a lot of unlikely soldiers from vastly different non infantry corps but it did not effect their ability to fight.....cheers TomB

Yes, that following the heavy losses during the Crete operation. From then on they were used mostly as ground troops.

Probably with the brakes on any major jump operations losses were then often made up of other organization troopers though I am speculating here.

 

[Desertkiwi]

Yes, it's a suggestion I've made before. It'd be great to see a line done based on units in Italy, which would be a nice change to France/Holland/Belgium. And at its heart would be 1st Para which should be a real winner.

Yeah I've mentioned the Italian campaign before too and asked the question why don't TS companies produce more based on this period of WW2. It seems the interest just isn't there, which is a real shame because the rugged terrain, buildings and the varied units that fought though that bitter conflict, would really lend themselves to some interesting dios and displays.

 

[RPZ]

Another reason supporting some Cassino TSs is that it was an area of some of the most intense fighting of the war. As the allied forces finally overcame their defenses it was a major turning point in the conflict.

Not only 1st Para, I would like to see some of the New Zealand, Polish and Indian troopers represented.

 

[Desertkiwi]

Another reason supporting some Cassino TSs is that it was an area of some of the most intense fighting of the war. As the allied forces finally overcame their defenses it was a major turning point in the conflict.

Not only 1st Para, I would like to see some of the New Zealand, Polish and Indian troopers represented.

Yeah I'd agree, I'm obviously showing some bias here, due to the involvement of the 2nd NZ Division, but like you mention there were Polish and Indian troops, along with a range of others from South Africa, Greece, Canada and of course the US and UK to name a few......not to forget the Italians themselves.

When you consider these forces starting fighting in 43 and didn't stop until early 45 it's remarkable more interest hasn't been given to the Italian campaign by TS companies.

Italy was a defender's paradise as the Germans clearly demonstrated time and time again, you only have to look at the battles fought in and around Cassino to see that.

I'm forever hoping we get to see some figures etc specifically tailored to this conflict, but I'm not holding my breath......personally speaking I think it's an opportunity lost so far......

Cheers

 

[binder001]

I just finally finished Rick Atkinson's "Day Of Battle". I thought I knew something about the Cassino campaign but, wow, what a screwed up affair. Such poor leadership from Alexander down through Clark to the various coprs commanders. The Allies played right into the German strengths and failed to capitalize on their won strengths. To quote from the movie "Patton" - "What a hell of a waste of fine infantry". Cassino should be taught in all command colleges about how NOT to conduct an attack.

Anyway, back to "toy" soldiers. One would think that this should be popular, but the Italian campaign is just not collected, therefore not much is offered. Somehow the Northwest Europe campaign captures most WW2 interest, along with the Eastern Front, or the Libyan-Egyptian desert campaigns. Even Tunisia and the Pacific seem to generate more interest than Italy. Too bad because one can use GIs in summer and winter uniforms, Germans in various uniforms (along with paras), British, Canadian, South African and New Zealand troops, plus the Free Polish and the Free French (including the goumiers and other colonial troops), Italian troops on both sides, Brazillians, Palestinian Jews, etc. Sometimes they got new gear (the US Army M1943 uniform went to Italy before it became common in the ETO) but otherwise older equipment was used until the end (some photos show Commonwealth troops using Tommy guns instead of Stens). So the Italian campaign should be a collector's dream, instead it is almost ignored.

Gary B.

 

[Mitch]

I think the Italian campaign is one of they most interesting theatres of the war. Depends though on what TS you would like that would address this campaign? I use a lot of the TG FJ's in a mix and match (as they were in Italy) in terms of uniforms to depict FJ's in this theatre and, any amount of TS that have already been released that are suitable for this area.

Have to agree about the fighting ability of the German FJ's on all fronts they were unmatched in aggressiveness and in their ability to adapt to whatever situations they found themselves in.
Mitch

 

[TomB]

I just finally finished Rick Atkinson's "Day Of Battle". I thought I knew something about the Cassino campaign but, wow, what a screwed up affair. Such poor leadership from Alexander down through Clark to the various coprs commanders. The Allies played right into the German strengths and failed to capitalize on their won strengths. To quote from the movie "Patton" - "What a hell of a waste of fine infantry". Cassino should be taught in all command colleges about how NOT to conduct an attack.

Anyway, back to "toy" soldiers. One would think that this should be popular, but the Italian campaign is just not collected, therefore not much is offered. Somehow the Northwest Europe campaign captures most WW2 interest, along with the Eastern Front, or the Libyan-Egyptian desert campaigns. Even Tunisia and the Pacific seem to generate more interest than Italy. Too bad because one can use GIs in summer and winter uniforms, Germans in various uniforms (along with paras), British, Canadian, South African and New Zealand troops, plus the Free Polish and the Free French (including the goumiers and other colonial troops), Italian troops on both sides, Brazillians, Palestinian Jews, etc. Sometimes they got new gear (the US Army M1943 uniform went to Italy before it became common in the ETO) but otherwise older equipment was used until the end (some photos show Commonwealth troops using Tommy guns instead of Stens). So the Italian campaign should be a collector's dream, instead it is almost ignored.

Gary B.

Very good article ......Cassino/ Italy is a forgotten war..like Korea......both have completely escaped the interest of the TS hierarchy....reference the Tommy guns...I think the Brits would have preferred to keep them ...the Thompson may have had a slower rate of fire but the .45 bullets had better stopping power than a 9mm Stern...The Stern was simpler and much more reliable though.......cheers TomB

 

[Poppo]

Cassino became a true hell for the allies:
the germans reinforced and perfectly hid their bunkers on the hills, in some points they had huge quantities of mortar ammunitions and other grenades to throw on the assailants. Many nations tried to break the german lines: americans, indians ( british army),australians, new zelanders, french, and finally the polish. All those who tried to pass through were destined to death or to be wounded: many mined fields in the rocks ( and many undetectable wooden mines), mortars and heavy machine guns firing from hidden places, nebelwerfen, hand grenades. When the allies sappers tried to open a path in the mined fields they were slaughtered by the machine guns and grenades, so that sometimes it was decided to make the infantry and the tanks attack without a previuos cleaning. When a german position was taken, very often the german paratroopers suddently organized violent counter attacks.

Cassino became after few months a myth for the "new" german paratroopers as Creta was for the " old" german paras and a reason of embarassements for the allies.

 

[uksubs]

Cassino became a true hell for the allies:
the germans reinforced and perfectly hid their bunkers on the hills, in some points they had huge quantities of mortar ammunitions and other grenades to throw on the assailants. Many nations tried to break the german lines: americans, indians ( british army),australians, new zelanders, french, and finally the polish. All those who tried to pass through were destined to death or to be wounded: many mined fields in the rocks ( and many undetectable wooden mines), mortars and heavy machine guns firing from hidden places, nebelwerfen, hand grenades. When the allies sappers tried to open a path in the mined fields they were slaughtered by the machine guns and grenades, so that sometimes it was decided to make the infantry and the tanks attack without a previuos cleaning. When a german position was taken, very often the german paratroopers suddently organized violent counter attacks.

Cassino became after few months a myth for the "new" german paratroopers as Creta was for the " old" german paras and a reason of embarassements for the allies.

I've been to Cassino and what you forget is it tied down a load of German troop which could of been better used on the Eastern front , I was shocked at the amount of German troop that surrender in Italy at the end of the war so the allies may of lost the battle but won the war :wink2: To me the Anzio landing were more embarrassing affair

 

[Poppo]

I've been to Cassino and what you forget is it tied down a load of German troop which could of been better used on the Eastern front , I was shocked at the amount of German troop that surrender in Italy at the end of the war so the allies may of lost the battle but won the war :wink2: To me the Anzio landing were more embarrassing affair

Italy was freed on april 25, 1945, only 15 days before the end of WW2, this date explains the success feldmaschal Kesserling had in the Italian campaign. An anecdote is my father was 11 and they were waiting for the allies to arrive and stop the war ( they lived in Genova, northern Italy), but the allies never came!!{sm2}

And when the americans came he saw the first white bread in his life.

 

[Sentaapua]

Italy was freed on april 25, 1945, only 15 days before the end of WW2, this date explains the success feldmaschal Kesserling had in the Italian campaign. An anecdote is my father was 11 and they were waiting for the allies to arrive and stop the war ( they lived in Genova, northern Italy), but the allies never came!!{sm2}

And when the americans came he saw the first white bread in his life.

Yes Poppo, couldn`t agree more: what Churchill called "the soft underbelly of Europe" was anything but soft... The Italian campaign was a formidable task of defense and attack strategies, with stubborn German resistance, poor leadership, logistics and different nations' army coordination among the main allied challenges. Its more than underrated as a operational theatre by TS companies: it`s simply neglected... Hope soon enough this takes a different path!

 

[Desertkiwi]

Yes Poppo, couldn`t agree more: what Churchill called "the soft underbelly of Europe" was anything but soft... The Italian campaign was a formidable task of defense and attack strategies, with stubborn German resistance, poor leadership, logistics and different nations' army coordination among the main allied challenges. Its more than underrated as a operational theatre by TS companies: it`s simply neglected... Hope soon enough this takes a different path!

Another interesting aspect of the Italian campaign was the terrible winter weather and the rugged terrain. After fighting in the hot, flat deserts of North Africa for over two years where tanks ruled the battlefield, the Allies were ill prepared Italy's mountains and valleys. This is especially evident with the battles in and around Cassino where it largely came down to good old fashioned soldiering by the poor bloody infantry.:salute::

 

[AIDMAN]

I have on and off for several years now been asking/suggesting for a series of allied and axis sets dedicated to the much neglected Italian campaign. They called it in the begining
"The soft underbelly of Europe" In realiity it was everything but soft. I believe this would make a fantastic new area for the serious collector and a breath of fresh air from the sometimes over produced Normandy/Bulge/Russia/Africa campaigns.......I wonder which manufacturer will be the first to realise this sadly neglected area and bring us something new!!!.

Steve

The battle of Montecassino was the most important and dramatic one in the italian campaign, and one of the biggest fought by the allies.

During 119 days a group of german divisions, tired, with few supplies and ammunitions, without the help of the air force, almost without tanks, stood up in Cassino to the most powerful war machine that the allies had put in Europe till that time.

The " Gustav" line became with the time a reason for the nazi propaganda to prove that the german soldier could resist with his willpower against huge forces ( and to Churchill a reason to be mad).
The hard mountains, the terrible weather, the raged german resistance and organization in the defense was a nightmare for the allies: the powerful bombings ( unlike Normandy) and the tanks were almost unuseful to break the german resistence so the allies units had to fight house to house in Cassino town, and along the narrow paths leading to the abbey. Allies soldiers fought with braveness and sacrifice as the germans did. Many mistakes were done, like the bombing of the abbey which let the germans create massive defenses in the ruins ( the lesson of Stalingrad was not learned), as well as the many ,unuseful and bloody attacks against almost impregnable german positions where the german parachutists made the biggest work.

This battle was long and terrible, much more than Market Garden(MG: about 18000 allies losses and 4-8000 germans; Cassino: about 125000 allies losses and about 12000 germans).

In my opinion it deserves a line of TS much more than MG, but it is not so...One more mistery to solve {sm2}

 

[Poppo]

The long battle finished suddenly....After almost 4 months, in an early morning, the polish radios intercepted german messages of retreating troops, at 8 am a patrol was sent to the monastery on the hill. 12 polish soldiers reached slowly the ruins through difficult paths full of mines. When arrived, they found 2 german nurses with 16 unarmed injured men. The polish flag was put on the ruins( with the add of the british flag as the polish corp was part of the british army).