Civil War: Sioux sentenced to death, biggest public execution in American history (3 Viewers)

I think it's the same everywhere.We in Southern New Jersey consider ourselves different from Northern Jersey.We in the south are more rural where we think Northern Jersey especially the extreme north as New Yorkers.We even voted years ago in a non-binding election to secede from the north.^&grin
Mark
 
PS. Interesting B/W photo Poppo posted. I hope that column was not put up by the 18th Roman Legion {sm2}[/QUOTE]






The columns with the fascist fasces were erected by the fascists, whose symbol was precisely the bundle of ancient Roman inspiration.

The number 18 refers to the year of the laying of the column: the eighteenth year of the fascist era that began with the coup d'état Mussolini did in 1922. Then, the column of the photo was erected in 1940 .... And the ****ed English (Mussolini called England "the perfidious Albion") destroyed it a few months later... ^&grin:p{sm4}.... I have some Italian books and an encyclopaedia of the 30s where as the publication date there is only the date of the fascist era. For example: "year XII" (the number always in Roman figures of course). The fascist dating stops at the twentieth year, 1942. In fact Mussolini was arrested on 8 September 1943. We therefore speak of "twenty years of fascism".



Returning to the Italian attack that began with Italy's entry into the war (1940), the Italian troops were strong of 291,176 men (91,203 nationals and 199,973 askari), they were in clear numerical superiority. In fact, the British at the beginning of the hostilities could count on 20,000 men (a figure that also included the troops of the dominions, the Commonwealth and the colonies): 3 British regular battalions in the almost three thousand kilometers of the Sudanese border, 2 East African brigades in Kenya (8,500 men, partly South African and partly settlers), 2 rifle battalions and 5 companies of camel troops in British Somalia and 2 Indian battalions in Aden.

At the beginning of the conflict, Duke Amedeo d'Aosta had conceived a very ambitious but difficult plan: to open a "direct route" through Sudan and Egypt (2,500 km without roads), following the course of the Nile in order to then reach the supply ports on the Mediterranean. But the order came from Rome to "maintain a strictly defensive demeanor". The duke, interpreting the order as an active defense, attacked on all fronts, taking the English by surprise everywhere.

On 3 August, the Italian troops commanded by General Guglielmo Nasi, penetrated into British Somalia, defeating the British and the local tribes.

After the illusion of a lightning war, the British counterattacked relying on the reinforcements and supplies that came from their polycentric empire : not only from the motherland, but also from India, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa. General Cunningham's offensive began on January 21, 1941 and immediately achieved important successes; the Somali border was crossed in seven points and by 10 February all the Italian outposts were conquered.

General Cunningham decided to continue the offensive immediately, taking advantage of the evident signs of surrender of the enemy; the British general thought it possible to march directly on Addis Ababa through the Ogaden and from 1 March 1941 a motorized column of African soldiers under the command of General Smallwood left Mogadishu and began to advance towards Harar. The imperial troops found practically no resistance; the advance continued with stages of almost one hundred kilometers a day and in ten days Dagabur was reached, more than 700 kilometers from Mogadishu.

The viceroy, Duke D'Aosta believed the situation was now compromised and had already planned to give up defending Addis Ababa and, despite Mussolini's clear opposition, to withdrow with the surviving forces on the mountains to organize a last resistance.

in March 1941, the Italian troops were pushed back towards the center of Ethiopia until they reached the surrender (for total lack of ammunition) with the honor of the arms of Amedeo, Duke of Aosta viceroy of Ethiopia on the heights of Amba Alagi.

Even after the allied conquest of Addis Abeba and the Amba Alagi episode, the Italian garrison of Gondar, about 40,000 strong and commanded by General Guglielmo Nasi, still resisted for months. The general administered his outpost very well: he reduced the rations, organized an indigenous market, a recovery section to exploit any material, a fishing section on Lake Tana. So until October the ration of the Italian soldiers was good: 300 grams of bread, 400 of meat, 200 of fish a day and plenty of vegetables. But now the end was approaching for Nasi too. First the fall of the Uolchefit garrison and the Culqualber pass garrison, during a series of clashes that lasted from August to November. Then on November 27 the battle of Gondar broke out and the Italian soldiers could little against the British tanks: the forces of Nasi, after having behaved very well, surrendered and paid with 4,000 dead (3,700 askari and 300 Italians) and 8,400 wounded the final defeat.

General Nasi and his last troops obtained military honors from the British.
 
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Why can't Great Countries admit to Great Mistakes and still not be Great?

So many Heroic and Good things were accomplished, and yet we fail sometimes.

That is the story of most Civilizations. But the U.S.-Indian Wars and the Italian involvement and violence in Africa bring up another question to my mind:

Is Imperialism Always Evil? That's my Q! Not sure @ all myself.

Anyway, Best Wishes & appreciate any responses, critical or not.

Paddy
 
PS. Interesting B/W photo Poppo posted. I hope that column was not put up by the 18th Roman Legion {sm2}






The columns with the fascist fasces were erected by the fascists, whose symbol was precisely the bundle of ancient Roman inspiration.

The number 18 refers to the year of the laying of the column: the eighteenth year of the fascist era that began with the coup d'état Mussolini did in 1922. Then, the column of the photo was erected in 1940 .... And the ****ed English (Mussolini called England "the perfidious Albion") destroyed it a few months later... ^&grin:p{sm4}.... I have some Italian books and an encyclopaedia of the 30s where as the publication date there is only the date of the fascist era. For example: "year XII" (the number always in Roman figures of course). The fascist dating stops at the twentieth year, 1942. /QUOTE]

Was not aware Mussolini started his own date system. You know you are a Dictator when you set the calendar based on when you came to power. Good it was not original Roman.
 
Why can't Great Countries admit to Great Mistakes and still not be Great?

So many Heroic and Good things were accomplished, and yet we fail sometimes.

That is the story of most Civilizations. But the U.S.-Indian Wars and the Italian involvement and violence in Africa bring up another question to my mind:

Is Imperialism Always Evil? That's my Q! Not sure @ all myself.

Anyway, Best Wishes & appreciate any responses, critical or not.

Paddy

Great post Paddy.

I think the bottom line is we can't change the past and like it or not 'Imperialism' is part of our history.

However you'd like to think humanity has learned from its past mistakes......?

What concerns me personally is this ‘cancel culture’ that’s been allowed to creep into society and try and ‘delete’ certain aspects of our colonial history because it doesn’t fit well with some in this current generation.

Some have even taken it further and now blaming the past ‘colonisation’ for their current situation, which to me is a very convenient way to deny any responsibility for their current predicament/s.

While this could be argued to some degree regarding some indigenous peoples, it certain doesn't excuse anti-social/criminal behaviour or an unwillingness to improve yourselves and grab every opportunity that is presented.

Just my 5 cents worth. ^&grin
 
Great post Paddy.

I think the bottom line is we can't change the past and like it or not 'Imperialism' is part of our history.

However you'd like to think humanity has learned from its past mistakes......?

What concerns me personally is this ‘cancel culture’ that’s been allowed to creep into society and try and ‘delete’ certain aspects of our colonial history because it doesn’t fit well with some in this current generation.

Some have even taken it further and now blaming the past ‘colonisation’ for their current situation, which to me is a very convenient way to deny any responsibility for their current predicament/s.

While this could be argued to some degree regarding some indigenous peoples, it certain doesn't excuse anti-social/criminal behaviour or an unwillingness to improve yourselves and grab every opportunity that is presented.

Just my 5 cents worth. ^&grin

To be fair, it's hard to succeed when you are completely demoralized. That's why I like to see more portrayals of non-Whites succeeding everywhere.

But I agree that it's silly to "cancel" inconvenient or unpleasant or even depressingly demoralizing History. And the blame game doesn't seem accurate to me either.

I say we encourage the success of all people and yet avoid a monument-burning party.

My 6cents & done with the thread. It's a good one but back to TS on this forum for me.

All the Best to All!
Paddy
 
"The columns with the fascist fasces were erected by the fascists, whose symbol was precisely the bundle of ancient Roman inspiration.

The number 18 refers to the year of the laying of the column: the eighteenth year of the fascist era that began with the coup d'état Mussolini did in 1922. Then, the column of the photo was erected in 1940 .... And the ****ed English (Mussolini called England "the perfidious Albion") destroyed it a few months later... ^&grin:p{sm4}.... I have some Italian books and an encyclopaedia of the 30s where as the publication date there is only the date of the fascist era. For example: "year XII" (the number always in Roman figures of course). The fascist dating stops at the twentieth year, 1942. In fact Mussolini was arrested on 8 September 1943. We therefore speak of "twenty years of fascism"."

Fascinating! I was horrified at first to see that statue going down, so it was good to read it was more like the pulling down of a Saddam monument. As for the 18th Legion - I think that was one of the ones Varus took to Germany......
 
Gentleman,

While I can certainly understand one of our Austrailian brothers not being knowledgeable about the genocide of the American Indians, if you are an American and don't recognize what happened in this country to American Indians, you may be in need of a quick education:

"From a pre-contact population variously estimated at between one and ten million, the American Indian population in the coterminous United States declined to approximately 600,000 in 1800—when estimates become more reliable—and continued its rapid decline in the nineteenth century, reaching a nadir of 237,000 in the decade 1890-1900 . . ."


  • American Indian Mortality in the Late Nineteenth Century: the Impact of Federal Assimilation Policies on a Vulnerable Population
  • J. David Hacker, Michael R. Haine
Taking the smallest estimate of the pre-European American Indian population, 1,000,000, from European Contact, 76% of the American Indian Population was exterminated, the majority of whom were killed between 1800 and 1890, while taking the largest estimate, 97.6% of their population was exterminated, via disease, starvation, or military action. Sounds a lot worse than the Italians in Abyssinia to me. When I lived in Texas and Oklahoma, my friends with Choctaw or Cherokee Indian blood seemed to agree.

Cheers, I have read some of Hacker's stuff and this information, this was one of the largest genocides, as a percentage of the population, in history. That followed by the slave trade means that some and i will stress some Americans do not want to be taught the past and actually what the country is built on, the genocide of one race, the enslavement of another and up to now the exploitation of another, cheap Chiness and then Mexican labour.
Britain, where i live, also has a similar issue on teaching our history, but as is often said history is written by the victors and in the case of the North American genocide history [US and Canada] it is those in power and have influence that decide the history.
 
Speaking of confusion. I was talking to a Kiwi work colleague last week that had recently returned from a wedding in New Zealand. As I intend to visit NZ some day I asked her for some details on where the wedding was etc. She said it was on the Mainland, which confused me, but apparently that's what Kiwis call the South Island, where she was from. I asked her what the North island was called, she laughed and said (Peg) Pig Island (other people's accents are always amusing).

I didn't enquiry why it was called Pig Island but apparently there's more rivalry between the Two islands than I thought. She also said there were some earth quakes while she was there, she was pretty scared (understandably) which amused her relatives who are used to them.

NZ great place to visit, Speight's beer, chocolate factory in Dunedin and every shop there seems to sell pies. I cycled the old gold railway route on the South Island, oh and the scenery is not bad either, nice people but the only problem was winding my watch back 50 years.
 
As you say just an article you decided to post.

Some thoughts then.

The Indians, perhaps with good cause, were not happy with their treatment. So what did they do ? Oh yes kill an innocent family of 5. Then they bravely declare war and proceeded to slaughter men women and children who also had nothing to do with Government policy. The number quoted is 800.

After an investigation 303 are sentenced to death. Lincoln eventually reduces that number to 38 who were involved in the massacres. Not good for the 38 but the other 265 were probably quite happy with the outcome.

Now judging by how the Italians behaved in Ethiopia I would think the Indians would consider themselves lucky they were dealing with Americans and not Mussolini and his brave Italians dropping mustard gas and killing ten of thousands of civilians in a country they had not even declared war against.

Your comment 'perhaps with good cause' reminded me of the scene at the Fair in 'A Million Ways To Die In America', where Charlize Theron asks to Seth MacFarlane "Why are the Indians so mad?" and he calls them selfish as they are will to spilt the country with them. Ofcourse they were pissed, look what the white Europeans were doing to them.
 

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