Collctors Showcase King Tiger & Wittman Tiger Pics (1 Viewer)

[maddadicus]

I agree completely. Why insist that an object of known dimensions is scaled 1/30 when all the information I've seen falsifies this proposition. If it's been scaled to match the figures then it should be sufficient to state this rather than perpetuating the fallacy that the figures themselves are 1/30 and should be used as a reference frame.

I am still not sure how the Panther and Panzer 4 as well as the Sherman all fit, but I cannot agree that since the newer CS vehicles now match the 1/28 figure offerings of others and their own line, we should all accept these models as the new size standard, especially when the scale math on the vehicles show up larger than ought be..Michael

 

[The Collectors Showcase]

I agree completely. Why insist that an object of known dimensions is scaled 1/30 when all the information I've seen falsifies this proposition. If it's been scaled to match the figures then it should be sufficient to state this rather than perpetuating the fallacy that the figures themselves are 1/30 and should be used as a reference frame.

fmethorst writes: "...perpetuating the fallacy.." Fallacy meaning "A statement or an argument based on a false or invalid inference" Now that's a serious undertaking to iterate such verbose, think about it TCS is now: " not telling the truth ". Quite inflammatory I would say! I could be insulted quite easily. But Im not and here's why:

This is atypical of folks writing from the comfort of their computer. We tend to behave like this in impersonal settings etc, so really its no biggie and we expect this sort of stuff don't we? ^&grin

But not only is it unflattering but its also wrong and mis-leading.

But its a great subject! So lets discuss: Our 1/30th scale is deemed to also mean 60mm which we advertise along with the standard measurement 1/30th scale. So its simple, lets walk through:

1/30th we can agree is about 60mm.

60mm is about 2.36 inches from the sole of a boot to the eye of our figures ( recent ones! The older style was ghastly oversized, and a bit pale ).

So we agree that our line is 1/30th! Its that simple, so lets agree and have a pint!^&grin^&grin^&grin

Cheers!

Brian

 

[Mitch]

Brian...

All for a pint but, would we all end up discussing whether we had actually been served a full pint. Where would it end????
Mitch

fmethorst writes: "...perpetuating the fallacy.." Fallacy meaning "A statement or an argument based on a false or invalid inference" Now that's a serious undertaking to iterate such verbose, think about it TCS is now: " not telling the truth ". Quite inflammatory I would say! I could be insulted quite easily. But Im not and here's why:

This is atypical of folks writing from the comfort of their computer. We tend to behave like this in impersonal settings etc, so really its no biggie and we expect this sort of stuff don't we? ^&grin

But not only is it unflattering but its also wrong and mis-leading.

But its a great subject! So lets discuss: Our 1/30th scale is deemed to also mean 60mm which we advertise along with the standard measurement 1/30th scale. So its simple, lets walk through:

1/30th we can agree is about 60mm.

60mm is about 2.36 inches from the sole of a boot to the eye of our figures ( recent ones! The older style was ghastly oversized, and a bit pale ).

So we agree that our line is 1/30th! Its that simple, so lets agree and have a pint!^&grin^&grin^&grin

Cheers!

Brian

 

[The Collectors Showcase]

Brian...

All for a pint but, would we all end up discussing whether we had actually been served a full pint. Where would it end????
Mitch

Probably not!

Cheers Mitch!^&grin^&grin

 

[Hunter Rose]

I am still not sure how the Panther and Panzer 4 as well as the Sherman all fit,

They fit quite well, actually. I support Brian and think Collectors Showcase vehicles are scaled very well in regards to each other. People on this site seem to love to do the math conversions and get hung up on the numbers. I too thought the Panzer 4 too large when I first received it. Surely a Tiger or King Tiger should dwarf it. The problm is, this doesn't hold up when you start leafing through some panzer books and see pictures of the actual vehicles side by side.

Here's a Tiger and Panzer IV.



In Thomas Jentz's book on the Tiger 2 there is an excellent front on shot of a Henschel King Tiger next to a normal 76mm gunned Sherman. They are just about the same height and the Sherman looks larger than I ever would have imagined. Theauthor even states "...as can be seen, the Sherman is taller and therefore presented and easier target."{sm4} I'll try and scan the pic this weekend.

I think people have this pre-conceived notion that a KingTiger was much larger than a Tiger and that both these tanks dwarfed Shermans and Panzer IVs, which in reality simply wasn't the case.

 

[MapleLeaf]

Very good info Hunter Rose
Thanks

 

[kilted vampire]

To bad the King tiger was never produced in the ambush camo , i would have bought one in a heart beat !!

It could always be repainted! What did you want it to look like?

 

[Mitch]

I don't think there are any hang ups about measurement. The hobby itself, not the collectors, have resulted in this so called hang up about scale. Too many have stated this or that about scale and, have been proven wrong time and time again. This has resulted in the scale formula being posted by collectors to show its really not hard work or rocket science to get this spot on. Now, I certainly don't have any preconceptions about german armour being huge over allied though they were much bigger on the whole.

This discussion has stemmed from the pictures that were placed on the site with the two Tiger 1 variants from two makers both stating they are 1/30th plain and simple, and, the fact, that one rather dwarfed the other. This then brought up the fact that it could not be used with other makers sets. The Panzer IV is also a large AFV. I think about size people often take into account the length of the barral in measurements instead of the Hull size.. possibly. The matter is that 1/30th means exactly what it says and there is no room for interpretation on that scale. I think when the math is placed on posts one can either use it and see or, don't use it
Mitch

They fit quite well, actually. I support Brian and think Collectors Showcase vehicles are scaled very well in regards to each other. People on this site seem to love to do the math conversions and get hung up on the numbers. I too thought the Panzer 4 too large when I first received it. Surely a Tiger or King Tiger should dwarf it. The problm is, this doesn't hold up when you start leafing through some panzer books and see pictures of the actual vehicles side by side.

Here's a Tiger and Panzer IV.

View attachment 74864

In Thomas Jentz's book on the Tiger 2 there is an excellent front on shot of a Henschel King Tiger next to a normal 76mm gunned Sherman. They are just about the same height and the Sherman looks larger than I ever would have imagined. Theauthor even states "...as can be seen, the Sherman is taller and therefore presented and easier target."{sm4} I'll try and scan the pic this weekend.

I think people have this pre-conceived notion that a KingTiger was much larger than a Tiger and that both these tanks dwarfed Shermans and Panzer IVs, which in reality simply wasn't the case.

 

[tommy416]

It could always be repainted! What did you want it to look like?

CS had advertised it as being with the ambush camo, yet it was never produced.

 

[fmethorst]

But its a great subject! So lets discuss: Our 1/30th scale is deemed to also mean 60mm which we advertise along with the standard measurement 1/30th scale. So its simple, lets walk through:

1/30th we can agree is about 60mm.

60mm is about 2.36 inches from the sole of a boot to the eye of our figures ( recent ones! The older style was ghastly oversized, and a bit pale ).

So we agree that our line is 1/30th! Its that simple, so lets agree and have a pint!^&grin^&grin^&grin

Cheers!

Brian

If I understand this correctly, the scale of the range is based entirely on a 60mm measurement from the bottom of the foot to the eye. The 1/30 term has nothing to do with actual precise ratios (1:30) and has merely been associated over the years with the 60mm toy soldier size. Since I've heard different explanations of the various miniature figure sizes, bottom of feet to eyes, bottom of feet to top of head over the years this seems ill defined and lacking standardization. It strikes me as somewhat odd that 1:30 (the ratio) would have been associated with a 60mm measurement from the bottom of the feet to the eyes as this would make the average figure represent a person 180cm to the eyes or roughly 190cm (74.8") tall overall. Regardless, my participation in this discussion has been based on a literal interpretation of 1:30, the size ratio (also known as scale). Since this appears to be incorrect and 1/30 is simply an iinterchangeable term with 60mm then my argument collapses because measurements based on precise ratios become meaningless. While I wouldn't call this association of terms misleading, as that implies intent, I would call it confusing to guys like me who have always considered scale to be a ratio.

 

[Andanna]

Frank is a representative of a group of collectors who approach the Toy Soldier hobby scientifically - hence with a very high expectation to historical and mathematical accuracy. I do not know when this trend started, but it is apparent to me that this approach to Toy Soldiers has its foundation in the modeling of kits from Tamiya, Dragon etc. It appears to me as if these two hobbies perhaps not merge, but edge closer to each other. Inherent with this trend, we see new materials being introduced into the Toy Soldier hobby that again stem from kits. I assume that for example CS is also either already using photo etched parts where it makes sense or seriously considering it.

I think it is great that Toy Soldier collectors nowadays are given many more choices than ever before. Hence in addition to the personal decision based on cost/benefit for each model/manufacturer, each collector can now make a decision as to Historical accuracy ranging from the traditional gloss soldier all the way to individually and professionally built tanks in 1/35.

 

[uksubs]

Frank is a representative of a group of collectors who approach the Toy Soldier hobby scientifically - hence with a very high expectation to historical and mathematical accuracy. I do not know when this trend started, but it is apparent to me that this approach to Toy Soldiers has its foundation in the modeling of kits from Tamiya, Dragon etc. It appears to me as if these two hobbies perhaps not merge, but edge closer to each other. Inherent with this trend, we see new materials being introduced into the Toy Soldier hobby that again stem from kits. I assume that for example CS is also either already using photo etched parts where it makes sense or seriously considering it.

I think it is great that Toy Soldier collectors nowadays are given many more choices than ever before. Hence in addition to the personal decision based on cost/benefit for each model/manufacturer, each collector can now make a decision as to Historical accuracy ranging from the traditional gloss soldier all the way to individually and professionally built tanks in 1/35.

I don't think it got anything to do at looking at the hobby scientifically if I buy a a diecast plane in 1/72 scale then it should be that scale & the same thing with any other hobby problem you got when making AFV in polstone it shrinks . for me the big downside with all this stuff getting bigger is space

 

[Mitch]

Agree that its little to do with being scientific????? its about wanting and expecting what is advertised. wanting quality and accuracy has nothing to do with science.

With the greatest of respect to everyone there is only one way to measure AFV's and all should be doing this. I don't think quality was brought up or, anything to do with this scale issue
Mitch

I don't think it got anything to do at looking at the hobby scientifically if I buy a a diecast plane in 1/72 scale then it should be that scale & the same thing with any other hobby problem you got when making AFV in polstone it shrinks . for me the big downside with all this stuff getting bigger is space

 

[PanzerAce1944]

I don't think it got anything to do at looking at the hobby scientifically if I buy a a diecast plane in 1/72 scale then it should be that scale & the same thing with any other hobby problem you got when making AFV in polstone it shrinks . for me the big downside with all this stuff getting bigger is space

Does polystone really shrink ??? {sm2}

 

[Andanna]

Agree that its little to do with being scientific????? its about wanting and expecting what is advertised. wanting quality and accuracy has nothing to do with science.

With the greatest of respect to everyone there is only one way to measure AFV's and all should be doing this. I don't think quality was brought up or, anything to do with this scale issue
Mitch

I am not disagreeing with you. For some collectors, it is more important that vehicle and figure match sizewise than the vehicle being accurately 1/30. Latter group is the more "mathematically" oriented I would say.

It is probably OK to say that I am in Frank's and your camp, but I do understand collectors who do not use a ruler to check accuracy of scale or get the RAL register out to check AFV color. Either approach is fine with me.

Whether using the term "Real 1/30 scale" as a marketing statement is correct or not was not subject of my contribution. I leave that to others.

 

[Mitch]

Got you now. I just think that although its interesting to discuss scale etc there is a tendancy for it to cause rancour with collectors who struggle to come to terms with each manufacturers rendition of 1/30th. Whilst I would not be too bothered whether an item is 1/30th 32nd or 35th as long as it was of good quality the manufacturers have IMO made this far more difficult and contentious than is necessary. I am only bothered when its stated in stone its this scale when clearly its not.
Mitch

I am not disagreeing with you. For some collectors, it is more important that vehicle and figure match sizewise than the vehicle being accurately 1/30. Latter group is the more "mathematically" oriented I would say.

It is probably OK to say that I am in Frank's and your camp, but I do understand collectors who do not use a ruler to check accuracy of scale or get the RAL register out to check AFV color. Either approach is fine with me.

Whether using the term "Real 1/30 scale" as a marketing statement is correct or not was not subject of my contribution. I leave that to others.

 

[The Collectors Showcase]

Cheers! ^&grin^&grin

 

[PanzerAce1944]

Got you now. I just think that although its interesting to discuss scale etc there is a tendancy for it to cause rancour with collectors who struggle to come to terms with each manufacturers rendition of 1/30th. Whilst I would not be too bothered whether an item is 1/30th 32nd or 35th as long as it was of good quality the manufacturers have IMO made this far more difficult and contentious than is necessary. I am only bothered when its stated in stone its this scale when clearly its not.
Mitch

Not picking on anyone here as far as brands go, but when the box of the tank says "1/30 scale" then the item inside of that box should be 1/30 scale !

 

[Vezzolf]

Got you now. I just think that although its interesting to discuss scale etc there is a tendancy for it to cause rancour with collectors who struggle to come to terms with each manufacturers rendition of 1/30th. Whilst I would not be too bothered whether an item is 1/30th 32nd or 35th as long as it was of good quality the manufacturers have IMO made this far more difficult and contentious than is necessary. I am only bothered when its stated in stone its this scale when clearly its not.
Mitch

Totally agree Mitch....If you're now 1:28 scale just say so... Just tell it like it is...Be consistent PLEASE...It's good to know what your buying....BEFORE you buy it{eek3}

 

[PanzerAce1944]

Kind of like buying a new automobile and wanting the power of that V-8 engine....only to get home and pop the hood to find a V-6 ! {sm2}