Comparison of WWII Weapons (1 Viewer)

[fmethorst]

Seeing how the Top Ten Tanks spurred some lively discussion I thought it might be fun to do a higher level comparison of a variety of weapons systems of WWII.

With the following list I've picked what I think are the best of each class of weapon.

• Pistol - USA (Colt 45 Government)
• Submachinegun - USSR (PPSh41 & PPS43)
• Rifle - USA (M1 Garand)
• Sniper Rifle - Germany (Kar98)
• Assault Rifle - Germany (MP43/44 StG44)
• GPMG - Germany (MG34 & MG42)
• HMG - USA (Browning M2)
• AT (man portable) - Germany (Panzerfaust)
• AT (towed) - Germany (Pak40)
• Tank - Germany (Tiger I, Tiger II, Panther)
• Tank Destroyer - Germany (Jagdpanther)
• Artillery (towed) - UK (25 Pounder)
• Artillery (SP) - Germany (Wespe, Hummel)
• Artillery (Rocket) - Germany (Panzerwefer)
• Fighter - USA/UK (P38, P47, P51, F6F, F4U, Spitfire)
• Bomber - USA/UK (B17, B25, B29, Lancaster, Mosquito)
• Ships (surface) - USA (Essex Class, Iowa Class)
• Ships (submarine) - Germany (Type XXI)

 

[uksubs]

Seeing how the Top Ten Tanks spurred some lively discussion I thought it might be fun to do a higher level comparison of a variety of weapons systems of WWII.

With the following list I've picked what I think are the best of each class of weapon.

• Pistol - USA (Colt 45 Government)
• Submachinegun - USSR (PPSh41 & PPS43)
• Rifle - USA (M1 Garand)
• Sniper Rifle - Germany (Kar98)
• Assault Rifle - Germany (MP43/44 StG44)
• GPMG - Germany (MG34 & MG42)
• HMG - USA (Browning M2)
• AT (man portable) - Germany (Panzerfaust)
• AT (towed) - Germany (Pak40)
• Tank - Germany (Tiger I, Tiger II, Panther)
• Tank Destroyer - Germany (Jagdpanther)
• Artillery (towed) - UK (25 Pounder)
• Artillery (SP) - Germany (Wespe, Hummel)
• Artillery (Rocket) - Germany (Panzerwefer)
• Fighter - USA/UK (P38, P47, P51, F6F, F4U, Spitfire)
• Bomber - USA/UK (B17, B25, B29, Lancaster, Mosquito)
• Ships (surface) - USA (Essex Class, Iowa Class)
• Ships (submarine) - Germany (Type XXI)

I love the MP44 assault Rifle & got this one last week

 

[Louis Badolato]

Wow, Frank, that's an excellent list. I would agree with pretty much every pick. I might argue that the longbarreled Stug III, with its very low (6'4 inch) profile (making it extraordinarily easy to hide in a hull down position) and remarkable record on the eastern front knocking out T-34's or the American Hellcat tank destroyer, with its very high speed (as much as 50 mph on road), traversing turret, and effective tungsten armor piercing shell might also have a claim to the title of best tank destroyer.

 

[Njja]

I love the MP44 assault Rifle & got this one last week

Wow thats pretty cool where did you pick that gem up?

I have a couple of Lugars with matching serial numbers that were unstamped

carry homes. In excellent condition ready to be fired but retired.

 

[Spitfrnd]

I love the MP44 assault Rifle & got this one last week

That is a nice looking weapon, doesn't it get a bit hard to hold though when the barrel heats up?

The list appears to be very defensible but I would like to comment on the two areas where I have some relative experience. There is a lot to chew on here so I thought I would start with the best fighter.

The best WWII fighter has been and will continue to be endlessly debated with many good points raised by the respective proponents of the various candidates. As was done for the tank discussion, it could be broken down further into periods since the advances progressed rapidly over the course of the war. I would offer the following candidates starting with the European theater since the Pacific fighters were largely carrier birds and at that time, could not really compete with the cream of the European land based fighters.
1940-41: Spitfire Mk I/IIB
1941-mid 42: FW 190A
1942 mid-44: Spitfire Mk IX (air to air); Mustang P-51B (escort)
1944-45: Spitfire Mk XIV (air to air), Mustang P-51D (escort)

Close Competitors
1940-41: Me 109E
1941-42: Me 109F, Spitfire Mk V (could best the 109F but outclassed against the 190A)
1942-43: Me109G, Spitfire Mk VIII (actually slightly better than the Mk IX but not deployed in Europe in significant numbers); P-38, P-47 (By far and away the best choice for less skilled pilots)
1944-45: FW 190D, Hawker Tempest, Me 262 (great speed and armament, poor manuverability and realiability)

Best airframe for the life of the war: Spitfire. Amazingly it adapted to successive engine changes with no loss of its initial excellent handling and manueverability. By comparison, the 109 became increasingly ponderous with its changes during the war.

For all these ratings I have confined myself to the traditional air-air role of the fighter and not its ground support roles, which would produce a much different list. I have also rated these totally based on their capability against competing aircraft, ignoring impact on the war effort, which again to me is another question entirely. Bottom line, with the exception of the period between the introduction of the FW 190A and the Spitfire Mk IX, there was no time during the war when your odds as a fighter pilot would not have been better in a Spitfire. By the end of the war, there was not a propeller aircraft that could best it with equal pilot skill. The Mk XIV could climb or dive away from the very few that could turn with it and turn inside the very few that could climb or dive with it. The FW190D was bloody close but if your life truly depended on it, few pilots that flew both would fail to pick the Spitfire.

 

[fmethorst]

I love the MP44 assault Rifle & got this one last week

Have you guys seen these semi auto only reproductions being made by Sport-Systeme Dittrich out of Germany

http://www.ssd-weapon.com/engl_web/index_en.htm

They are crazy expensive though.

 

[Njja]

Interesting looking weapon, I'll have to check my local gun shop and see

if he knows about it.

Growing up in New Jersey you could only obtain rifles and shotguns with a

federal firearms card........pistols required a permit which was extremely

difficult to obtain.

When I first moved to Georgia I was stunned to see firearms available in

hardware, drug stores, just about everywhere. I remember my first

purchse went something like this........"Ah I'll take a hersey bar, a toothbrush,

this news paper.........and that Smith & Wesson 357 Magnum with a couple

of boxes of hollow points........please"

What a shocker! Okay its now 25 years later, and things are much more

difficult........no more drugstore gun shops. Now with all the new, modern

laws, waiting periods, and such its goes something like this......"Ah I'll take

that Smith & Wesson 44 Magnum with a couple of boxes of hollow points"

Now the clerk says......."You know theres a waiting period"

Oh....oh......Not with a Carry Permit.

 

[uksubs]

Wow thats pretty cool where did you pick that gem up?

I have a couple of Lugars with matching serial numbers that were unstamped

carry homes. In excellent condition ready to be fired but retired.

Check out the link
http://www.mfiap.com/airsoft/mp44_l.htm

 

[1879fanatic]

It fires little yellow platique balls? Are you sure you're allowed to have this in the UK , UKSUBS??!? Looks real though.Mike

 

[Wraith]

It fires little yellow platique balls? Are you sure you're allowed to have this in the UK , UKSUBS??!? Looks real though.Mike

Yeah, d*mn right we can! The best thing in personal defence out there. Those little yellow plastic balls really sting if you ND one in to your hand.

 

[Njja]

Little plastic balls

Oh you guys are cheating!

Wheres the amour piercing........little plastic balls?

 

[uksubs]

It fires little yellow platique balls? Are you sure you're allowed to have this in the UK , UKSUBS??!? Looks real though.Mike

This one came with ten bullets & you can convert it to fire blanks

 

[Njja]

Heres a shot of a carry home Lugar a marvelous weapon and a tribute to the

soldiers that sacrificed everything to resolve this conflict.

 

[modernreb]

Best fighter Spitfire, Best Rifle Lee-Enfield, Best HMG MG-42 other than that spot on!!

 

[OzDigger]

Seeing how the Top Ten Tanks spurred some lively discussion I thought it might be fun to do a higher level comparison of a variety of weapons systems of WWII.

With the following list I've picked what I think are the best of each class of weapon.

• Pistol - USA (Colt 45 Government)
• Submachinegun - USSR (PPSh41 & PPS43)
• Rifle - USA (M1 Garand)
• Sniper Rifle - Germany (Kar98)
• Assault Rifle - Germany (MP43/44 StG44)
• GPMG - Germany (MG34 & MG42)
• HMG - USA (Browning M2)
• AT (man portable) - Germany (Panzerfaust)
• AT (towed) - Germany (Pak40)
• Tank - Germany (Tiger I, Tiger II, Panther)
• Tank Destroyer - Germany (Jagdpanther)
• Artillery (towed) - UK (25 Pounder)
• Artillery (SP) - Germany (Wespe, Hummel)
• Artillery (Rocket) - Germany (Panzerwefer)
• Fighter - USA/UK (P38, P47, P51, F6F, F4U, Spitfire)
• Bomber - USA/UK (B17, B25, B29, Lancaster, Mosquito)
• Ships (surface) - USA (Essex Class, Iowa Class)
• Ships (submarine) - Germany (Type XXI)

All good choices but I would place the T-34/85 as the best all round tank in WWII. I'd prefer to be in a P-47 than any other fighter. It's true it wasn't as nimble as some but it could take plenty of hits and it possibly saved more airman's a$$es than any other fighter, apart from the Mossie of course

I would also add three categories.

Light Machine Gun: Bren gun
Mortar: Russian 120 mm
Light tank: M24 Chaffee

 

[trooper]

The Australians preferred the Lee Enfield no1 rifle. They carried on producing it right through until 1954. I must say I agree with them, I prefer the V and post sights over the ring and post of the No 4. The Bren was the best LMG, if it had any fault it was that it was too accurate. Fire a three round burst at a group of men 900 yards away and chances were you would put all three rounds in the same man.

 

[OzDigger]

The Australians preferred the Lee Enfield no1 rifle. They carried on producing it right through until 1954. I must say I agree with them, I prefer the V and post sights over the ring and post of the No 4. The Bren was the best LMG, if it had any fault it was that it was too accurate. Fire a three round burst at a group of men 900 yards away and chances were you would put all three rounds in the same man.

Yes, the rifle comparison is a close call and the Lee Enfield is a good all rounder and it's only (slight) downside was that it's a bolt action repeater and not a semi auto like the M1 Garand. However the Lee Enfield was more robust and less likely to jam than the M1 and you didn't have that loud metalic ping when the mag was emptied.

My grandfather did some sniping on Gallipoli with a standard issue Lee Enfield but he said he preferred the captured Mauser he 'acquired'. Now of course the Aussie soldiers use the Steyr AUG http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steyr_AUG which is apparently going ok, but imo the 5.56 is to small comapred to the old .308 SLR (L1A1) that they used in Vietnam etc http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FN_FAL

The Bren Gun was certainly a mighty weapon considering its relative light weight: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bren_light_machine_gun

 

[Wraith]

I think a good test of some of these WWII weapons is how recently some have (or continue to be) been in active service.
Not so long ago, the Colt .45 was still the main stay military pistol, The Browning .50 is still very much in service, with I believe, negligable changes.
Not sure if the MG42 derivative is still in active service, but if it isn't, it was not too long ago. The Lee Enfield was still being used not so long back, in a slightly modified, and rechambered form, as a sniper rifle. The Bren was another that was still in service, slightly modified, until the 80's.

I'd say that if a weapon is still in frontline use 40, 50 or 60+ years after it's initial design, then the designers got something pretty much spot on when it first came out.

Simon

 

[binder001]

Some of my personal choices;

Pistol - USA (Colt .45 M1911A1)
Submachinegun - German MP44 (can cover the SMG, battle rifle, carbine and assault rifle category)
Rifle - USA (M1 Garand) - no, it isn't perfect - but I still love that weapon!
**added - "Secondary" rifle - M2 carbine - the full auto version that came into use in 1945 (unless you have the MP44 available, then your army doesn't need a carbine)
Sniper Rifle - Germany (Kar98)
Assault Rifle - Germany (MP43/44 StG44) (I also placed this in the SMG category as the Germans used it as an SMG and also issued to whole units as the primary infantry weapon)
GPMG - Germany (MG34 & MG42) the BREN made a great squad automatic weapon. I like the BAR but the BREN had more modern features and is still useable today.
HMG - USA (Browning M2) - the water-cooled Browning M1917A1 and Vickers both did great work at the HMG role. They don't have the sheer destructiveness of the .50 BMG round but could maintain high volumes of fire.
AT (man portable) - Germany (Panzerfaust)
AT (towed) - Germany (Pak40) , the British 17-pounder was a great AT gun also, but did weigh a lot more than PAK40.
Tank - Germany (Tiger I, Tiger II, Panther) - depends on the mission. M24 was clearly the best light/scout tank, the Sherman Firefly put a weapon almost as good as Panther's on a more reliable chassis. For sitting and waiting for an enemy to come to you a Tiger II is hard to beat. Pershing was underpowered but but combined a good gun with armor and mobility and maintainability.
Tank Destroyer - Germany (Jagdpanther) JagdPanther is awfully big - IMHO the whole tank destroyer class wouldn't need to exist if you have a sufficient number of well-armed tanks. Making at least some of the infantry's AT gun mobile is desireable, but JagdPanther still seems overkill for that job.
**Added - APC = US M3-series halftracks. German Sdkfz 251 was better in combat but the White halftrack was better road transport, easier to drive and maintain.
**added - Scout vehicle = US M8 was OK, British Daimler seemed to be a balanced design, German Puma was big and complex but had firepower and mobility. Hard to choose just one.
Artillery (towed) - the US 105mm howitzer for primary divisional artillery, backed up with the US 155mm howitzer per practice in a US infantry division.
Artillery (SP) - M7 "Priest" for the 105mm class, M40 SP "Long Tom" 155mm gun. The US didn't get an SP 155mm howitzer deployed during the war but the M41 (based on the M24 light tank) was built just after the war.
Artillery (Rocket) - Germany (Panzerwefer) or the Russian Katyusha
Fighter - Long range air-to-air = US P51D/K "Mustang"
Advanced interceptor = German ME 262 "Schwalbe"
Ground attack = P47 "Thunderbolt"
Carrier fighter = F6F-5 "Hellcat"/F4U-4 "Corsair"
Bomber - Long Range Heavy = B29 "Superfortress"
Medium = B25 "Mitchell"
Light intruder/recon = Mosquito
Ships (surface) - CV = Essex class
BB = Iowa class
CA = Baltimore class
CL = Cleveland class
DD = Fletcher class/Gearing class
Ships (submarine) - Experimental = Germany (Type XXI)
Fleet boat = US Gato/Balao class

Now the IMPORTANT STUFF that wins wars;
Truck, light, multipurpose = US Jeep
Truck, General purpose = US GMC CCKW-types
Cargo Ship = US Liberty ships
Air transport = US C47

 

[fmethorst]

I think a good test of some of these WWII weapons is how recently some have (or continue to be) been in active service.
Not so long ago, the Colt .45 was still the main stay military pistol, The Browning .50 is still very much in service, with I believe, negligable changes.
Not sure if the MG42 derivative is still in active service, but if it isn't, it was not too long ago. The Lee Enfield was still being used not so long back, in a slightly modified, and rechambered form, as a sniper rifle. The Bren was another that was still in service, slightly modified, until the 80's.

I'd say that if a weapon is still in frontline use 40, 50 or 60+ years after it's initial design, then the designers got something pretty much spot on when it first came out.

Simon

The post war derivative of the MG42 is the MG3 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rheinmetall_MG3.

I've got to go but I'll comment a bit more on the MG42 later.

A few guys caught my miss of the SAW (Squad Automatic Weapon) which really only includes the the US BAR and British Bren. My vote would be with the Bren.