spoken like a true yankee
Confederate Medal of Honor (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter BLReed
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spoken like a true yankee
It's amazing how much venom is out there when the original topic was that the SCV (proud member of) was issuing their own Medal of Honor to deceased soldiers who fought for the Confederacy. It isn't about who started what or why, just a heritage group honoring their ancestors. Not all rebs owned slaves, just the wealthiest few who could buy their way out of the fight. let's keep it civil, folks. I lost count of how many ancestors foguth for the South (and a couple for the north). They did it for various reaons, the main one was that they were of soldier's age. Am i proud of them? ****ed straight I am.
tdubel
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I couldnt agree more, nothing wrong with remembering history and being proud of your ancestors. Personally, anybody who fought in that war on either side had to have some sense of honor or bravery, either that or they were plain nuts to endure the hardships of that type of fighting, not to mention the uniforms and the weather elements.
TD
Panzer ace
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Does this mean that there are no heroes or medal worthy combatants on the losing side of wars and/or battles?
Rutledge
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Ive never really understood the phrase "wrong side of history". Does history have wrongs and rights? Or isnt history the factual recording of events that occurred. Its up to later generations as to who was "right" or "wrong". And, as well we know, history is always written by the victors. Just ask the American Indian.
No one requires and even asks you "respect" the awards given out by the private club. I really dont care about Grammys and Oscars, or even Heismans, but lots of folks do. (Im sure 'The Academy" could care less.) At the end of the day they are all SUBJECTIVE awards. That doesnt diminish the honor of receiving one. But it does mean others can have similarly subjective awards programs. In doing so such programs are not inherently false or "bad", as all non quantifiable awards are based on other human beings subjective assessments.
Warrior
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I see the word proud mentioned a lot by southerners, proud of my 435 ancestors who fought in the American Civil War, proud to be a member of the Sons of the South, Daughters of the Confederacy or other such groups.
Great, good for you.
I'm from Massachusetts, both of my grandparents came to this country in the early 1900's, one from Italy, one from Greece, so I can't trace my roots back to Civil War times; both of my grandparents were in this country for several years, then WWI broke out, both enlisted and fought for their new countries, one of my grandfathers was wounded badly but survived.
The 20th MA, 9th MA and 54th MA all mustered out of Massachusetts, all three trained about a half hour from my childhood home in a town called Readville MA (it's now called Hyde Park). Many of the gunners in the 9th MA were from Fall River and Dartmouth, several miles from my current home, several others from West Roxbury, where my childhood home was.
The 20th MA, also known as the "Harvard Regiment" as all the officers and most of the enlisted men went to Harvard, fought their ***** off at many major battles including Gettysburg. The 9th MA artillery regiment under the command of Bigelow fought at Gettysburg too, they helped cut Barksdales Charge to pieces, raking them with artillery fire.
And the 54th MA; the first all black regiment, commanded by Robert Gould Shaw, as a kid, I attended Robert Gould Shaw middle school in West Roxbury.
The inclusion of black regiments as fighting units helped turn the tide of the war against the Confederacy.
Tell you what; I am not related to any of the men from the 9th, 20th or 5thMA, but I'm ****ed proud of each and every one of them.
Last time I checked, it was ONE nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
150 years and 1,000,000 casualties/620,000 deaths later, the war still drags on.
How truly sad.
Great, good for you.
I'm from Massachusetts, both of my grandparents came to this country in the early 1900's, one from Italy, one from Greece, so I can't trace my roots back to Civil War times; both of my grandparents were in this country for several years, then WWI broke out, both enlisted and fought for their new countries, one of my grandfathers was wounded badly but survived.
The 20th MA, 9th MA and 54th MA all mustered out of Massachusetts, all three trained about a half hour from my childhood home in a town called Readville MA (it's now called Hyde Park). Many of the gunners in the 9th MA were from Fall River and Dartmouth, several miles from my current home, several others from West Roxbury, where my childhood home was.
The 20th MA, also known as the "Harvard Regiment" as all the officers and most of the enlisted men went to Harvard, fought their ***** off at many major battles including Gettysburg. The 9th MA artillery regiment under the command of Bigelow fought at Gettysburg too, they helped cut Barksdales Charge to pieces, raking them with artillery fire.
And the 54th MA; the first all black regiment, commanded by Robert Gould Shaw, as a kid, I attended Robert Gould Shaw middle school in West Roxbury.
The inclusion of black regiments as fighting units helped turn the tide of the war against the Confederacy.
Tell you what; I am not related to any of the men from the 9th, 20th or 5thMA, but I'm ****ed proud of each and every one of them.
Last time I checked, it was ONE nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
150 years and 1,000,000 casualties/620,000 deaths later, the war still drags on.
How truly sad.
Combat
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The Nazis are an extreme example but one that demonstrates that there clearly can be a wrong side to history. During the recent 150th anniversary there were plenty of folks dressed up as Confederate soldiers and having a lot of harmless fun. Most were no doubt well-intentioned history buffs. Likeable people who had absolutely no intent to cause offense. Nevertheless, if they studied the Gettysburg campaign they would also know that the Confederates rounded up free blacks including women and children and took them away into slavery. Imagine what a horrifying experience that would have been for entire families. How would you feel as a black person to read that such people are being honored who had done those things? Would you be comfortable dressing your kid up as someone like that or giving them a Confederate flag to wave? I wouldn't. It's much easier to sugar coat history and pretend it was just about bravery and nice uniforms, but there is a very ugly side as well. You can't just limit the discussion to those aspects of history that are comfortable to discuss and ignore the rest. That's revionist PC and not the other way around as some suggest.
"[a]s the Army of Northern Virginia moved into Pennsylvania in late June 1863, it began to round up scores of free blacks and escaped slaves to be sent south.
Lee had issued orders that the property of white citizens was to be respected during the invasion. But loosely defined, the directive enabled soldiers to capture people of color and send them to Virginia as if they were fugitive slaves. As a result men, women and children, both escaped slaves and blacks who had been born free, were grabbed by Lee’s men wherever they went.
Fear spread rapidly through the African-American community in Pennsylvania when the mighty Confederate army approached. Some black residents were able to hide and avoid capture by the rebels. Most, however, fled to Harrisburg and Philadelphia, and many never to return to their homes.
Nearly all of Chambersburg’s pre-war black population of 1,800 fled or were captured by Lee’s troops. The town of Gettysburg listed 186 African-American residents in 1860, a number that was reduced by two-thirds after the Confederate army left the area in retreat. Professor Smith estimates as many as 1,000 unlucky captives were taken to Virginia, where they were claimed by their former owners, sold at auction or imprisoned."
jazzeum
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Further to Combat's post, see this article, http://deadconfederates.files.wordpress.com/2013/07/slavehunt.pdf
Also this, http://cwemancipation.wordpress.com/2013/06/30/enslaving-the-free-the-gettysburg-campaign/
Also this, http://cwemancipation.wordpress.com/2013/06/30/enslaving-the-free-the-gettysburg-campaign/
Poppo
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1) The south didn't want the war. Most of the confederate generals and Jefferson Davis painfully took the decision of secession. More, most of them were against the secession, but, once it was decided they fought to defend their land.
2) Even you seem to ignore the fact that the war happened because of the secession, and not to free the slaves. The freeing of the slaves was eventually the effect of the war, not a cause.The responsability of the war deaths is Lincoln's.
3) in every war cruelty acts are made, like during the Sherman' s march to the sea.
4) Comparing Lee to Himmler or Jefferson Davis to Hitler, well, this is "revisonism", or lie, or tale, or fanaticism, I let you choose what you prefer...
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Rutledge
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Meanwhile northern troops were angelic philanthropists who helped every little old lady they could find...
Hmmm, living where I do, a city full of civilians that was literally burnt to the ground by union troops, somehow my vision of the Yankee troops is less generous.
Like I said, war propaganda is good to stir the masses, for soldier recruitment, bond sales, you name it. Who knows what really happened. I've lived in the north in modern times. If your claim is that the north is some sort of glorious center of non racism, I would laugh. I encountered plenty of racism in the north, as much or even more than in the south. In fact the South is today much more integrated than the north. And in fact the south does not have Italian, Irish, Polish or Russian dominated neighborhoods. There is zero ethnicity division or identity among whites in the south.
My great great great great grandfather/uncles were governor of SC, plantation owners and even included one signer of the D of I. They were surely slave owners too. Am I proud of them? You bet. Do I make a big deal of my heritage? No. Who cares. I'm my own person. But if anyone would ever try to TELL me, to my face, the shame and dishonor I SHOULD feel, well, that conversation would end badly.
I don't wear sports uniforms of teams I'm not an active member of, and I don't believe in playing soldier dress up aka reenactment. I don't care the side or the conflict. But each to their own. If I see guys dressed up as Germans from WWII with their big paunches and out of shape bodies, do I decry them as nazi lovers? No, I think they're kind of silly, but whatever. Same with the civil war folks.
The South will always be proud of its heritage. It's ingrained in the culture. If you think you can change that, or convince that instead we should be ashamed, you'll be greatly disappointed - and, moreover, create bitterness and resentment. No one is suggesting we reistitute slavery. Obviously. But people take their families very seriously. Yankees have always disparaged and denigrated southern heritage and culture. And I guess they always will. Shame.
Peter Reuss
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So, according to this thread, people don't agree about the causes/actions/motivations/ending of the Civil War.
I think we've plowed this ground before. It's good conversation, but realize that few minds will be changed. I don't want to see this thread have to get shut down like so many others on this theme.
At some point, we have to agree to disagree and move on.
I think we've plowed this ground before. It's good conversation, but realize that few minds will be changed. I don't want to see this thread have to get shut down like so many others on this theme.
At some point, we have to agree to disagree and move on.
The Military Workshop
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An interesting thread with many good points.
However an intereting scenario popped into my head as I was reading the North v South discussion.
Not trying to stir anything up but picture this scene just for fun. It is has good diorama potential ( look great in a wargaming scale).
The Blue and Grey armies are lined up for action at Gettysburg. The artillery are ready and the Generals issuing their final orders.
In the distance the sound of a fife and drum band can be heard. This is soon followed by the sound of bagpipes. The gathered American troops look off into the distance and what do they see ?
Long columns of British redcoats. Naturally they are commanded by the grandson of Cornwallis and a few members of the Royal Family.
Do the Blue and Grey hastily arrange a meeting to join together against a common foe ?
As I said would be a fun diorama. Wonder if George has any redcoats to play with {sm4}
Brett
However an intereting scenario popped into my head as I was reading the North v South discussion.
Not trying to stir anything up but picture this scene just for fun. It is has good diorama potential ( look great in a wargaming scale).
The Blue and Grey armies are lined up for action at Gettysburg. The artillery are ready and the Generals issuing their final orders.
In the distance the sound of a fife and drum band can be heard. This is soon followed by the sound of bagpipes. The gathered American troops look off into the distance and what do they see ?
Long columns of British redcoats. Naturally they are commanded by the grandson of Cornwallis and a few members of the Royal Family.
Do the Blue and Grey hastily arrange a meeting to join together against a common foe ?
As I said would be a fun diorama. Wonder if George has any redcoats to play with {sm4}
Brett
jazzeum
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Brett's post is not as far fetched as it seems. In 1861 Henry Seward, the Secretary of State, proposed to Lincoln that they concoct some reason to have a foreign power declare war. This would have the effect of leading the Southern states and the United States to fight the common foe and, thus, end succession. Lincoln rejected this absurd idea out of hand.
jazzeum
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This was from an article in the Disunion Blog by Professor Terry Jones, a Professor of History at LSU. The full article is available here, http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/05/02/my-civil-war/?_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=0
It expresses thoughts better than some of the vitriol I have seen here in the last day or do.
******
Before visiting Ms. Farnsworth, I, a son of the Deep South, had never much considered how Northerners felt about the Civil War. But the trip to Michigan demonstrated to me that it was as an important part of their family heritage as it was of mine. In his 1861 inaugural address, Abraham Lincoln reminded the nation that all Americans were bound together by the “mystic cords of memory.” Those words still ring true today, particularly in regard to the Civil War. That conflict and the Reconstruction period that followed settled the critical issues of secession, slavery and citizenship, but they also left deep wounds that are still red and angry and painful to the touch. One reason the Civil War resonates so strongly with us today is because it is a recent event in our collective memory. The last Union veteran died in 1956 and the last Confederate in 1959. Incredibly, the last Union widow died in 2003 and the last Confederate widow in 2004!
The war may have ended nearly 150 years ago, but many Americans today are only one generation removed from Appomattox, and family history is judged in terms of generations, not years.
During their lifetime, most of my fellow baby boomers will personally know relatives whose lives, collectively, will span four centuries: As youngsters, we frequently visited with elderly ones who were born in the 19th century and who intimately knew Civil War veterans; by the time we pass on, we will have known relatives who will live into the 22nd century. A family’s collective memory is strong, and in that memory the guns have not been long silent. In our minds, the ashes of Civil War campfires are still warm, and Rebel Yells and Yankee huzzahs still echo in the hills.
*****
It expresses thoughts better than some of the vitriol I have seen here in the last day or do.
******
Before visiting Ms. Farnsworth, I, a son of the Deep South, had never much considered how Northerners felt about the Civil War. But the trip to Michigan demonstrated to me that it was as an important part of their family heritage as it was of mine. In his 1861 inaugural address, Abraham Lincoln reminded the nation that all Americans were bound together by the “mystic cords of memory.” Those words still ring true today, particularly in regard to the Civil War. That conflict and the Reconstruction period that followed settled the critical issues of secession, slavery and citizenship, but they also left deep wounds that are still red and angry and painful to the touch. One reason the Civil War resonates so strongly with us today is because it is a recent event in our collective memory. The last Union veteran died in 1956 and the last Confederate in 1959. Incredibly, the last Union widow died in 2003 and the last Confederate widow in 2004!
The war may have ended nearly 150 years ago, but many Americans today are only one generation removed from Appomattox, and family history is judged in terms of generations, not years.
During their lifetime, most of my fellow baby boomers will personally know relatives whose lives, collectively, will span four centuries: As youngsters, we frequently visited with elderly ones who were born in the 19th century and who intimately knew Civil War veterans; by the time we pass on, we will have known relatives who will live into the 22nd century. A family’s collective memory is strong, and in that memory the guns have not been long silent. In our minds, the ashes of Civil War campfires are still warm, and Rebel Yells and Yankee huzzahs still echo in the hills.
*****
Warrior
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Wow, no kidding; so northerners have family heritage too? Really?
Gee, you learn something new everyday; he referred to them as northerners too, not "Yankees."
Don't know why, but I find the term "Yankees" offensive; not sure why, but I just do.
I don't call southerners "Rebels", so don't call me a "Yankee."
The part that gets lost on so many people is these were AMERICANS killing AMERICANS, in some cases fathers killing sons, brothers killing brothers, uncles killing nephews, cousins killing cousins.
I hold no animosity towards southerners; they are fellow americans in my eyes, I don't view them as southerners, they are all americans. They fought for their country in the AWI, The war with Mexico, the Spanish American War, WWI, WWII, Korean, Vietnam, the Gulf War and the war in Iraq and Afghanistan, they served their country when asked and fought and died for it. The fought against it in the ACW and lost, so get over it already.
As far as their culture, I have no ill will towards that either, do as you see fit, think the way you want to think, believe what you want to believe, have at it, good for you.
Oh and I fixed the last part for you..................
theBaron
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It bothers me sometimes, too, when our Southern friends call me a Yankee. We're not Yankees, we're Pennsylvania Dutchmen, dammit! Now, George, you fellas up there, well, anyone to the east of the Hudson is a New England Yankee, as far as we're concerned. And Jersey? Well, Jersey is Jersey
Now bring me some scrapple and some Schnitz und Knepp!
Brad
Rutledge
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The "nazis" are trotted out so often, in any kind of debate, they've long since lost their effectiveness.
Frankly, I don't care about other peoples feelings nearly as much as my own. Most people operate this way. Tiptoeing around 10000 different possible ways to hurt some groups feelings is simply not workable. My feelings about my ancestors take priority. No one is trying to disrespect anybody else. But if people think someone else's feelings about their ancestors trump my own, I'd ask why? Why are others, strangers to me, why are their feelings supposed to be more important to me than my own?
My lord if my feelings were hurt every time somebody disparaged my particular demographic group, Geesh. I'd have blown my brains out long ago from lack of self esteem. I'd suggest folks start toughening up a bit so feelings are less sensitive. Especially when the purpose is honoring one group - not dishonoring anyone or any other group. Any "hurt feelings" are from excessive sensitivity, IMO.
I'm fine not using the term Yankee - of course its a famous mascot, as are the ole Miss Rebels. But I can respect that. After all, I'm interested in honoring and respecting my ancestors, not denigrating others.
A great uncle of mine died 50 odd years after the ACW charging a boche machine gun position somewhere in France. So, a generation later we were dying for the UNITED states of America. There is only respect and love for this country - even fully recognizing its many, many imperfections and flaws.
Obviously no one is saying northerners don't value their heritage or family.. Of course they do All we are saying is let us honor our southern dead, warriors and ancestors, without opprobrium or judgement. Respect given is always returned in kind. Its kind of a Southern thang...
Note: my "best of" iPod was playing as I typed this. It includes many Bruce Springsteen songs - surely not a southerner. Course I love the Allman Bros too..
tdubel
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George,
I think you don't like the Yankee term due to your love of sports and hatred of that New York Team................^&grin^&grin Come on tell the truth!
Sitting on the fence of this argument geographically, it is interesting. Neither term affects me b/c we have always learned the story of Billy Yank and Johnny Reb, so Yankees and Rebels were nothing more than the names of the participants! I always think of myself this way, proud to have Yankee ancestors, but I guess I am a Rebel at heart!!
TD
I think you don't like the Yankee term due to your love of sports and hatred of that New York Team................^&grin^&grin Come on tell the truth!
Sitting on the fence of this argument geographically, it is interesting. Neither term affects me b/c we have always learned the story of Billy Yank and Johnny Reb, so Yankees and Rebels were nothing more than the names of the participants! I always think of myself this way, proud to have Yankee ancestors, but I guess I am a Rebel at heart!!
TD
Warrior
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Got me on that one...........I tried to slip one past the goalie, but you flashed that right pad and kicked it out......................:wink2:
