Crab @ St. Lo (1 Viewer)

Firebat

Firebat

2nd Lieutenant
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The 747th / 2nd Armored Division utilized the first US crab at the battle for St. Lo



SL0065.jpg
 
uksubs said:
Do you have any more information on this mate ?
Click to expand...

The Americans for some reason would not utilize Hobarts Funnies on D-Day...It was probably an ego thing. But I guess they finally saw the benefit, and in July, during actions at St. Lo, the first crabs were employed by the 747th Tank Battalion of the 2nd Armored Division. It is said that the Americans did like the Sherman with the huge rollers better for mine clearing. I believe the nick name was the Aunt Gemima
 
Firebat said:
The Americans for some reason would not utilize Hobarts Funnies on D-Day...It was probably an ego thing. But I guess they finally saw the benefit, and in July, during actions at St. Lo, the first crabs were employed by the 747th Tank Battalion of the 2nd Armored Division. It is said that the Americans did like the Sherman with the huge rollers better for mine clearing. I believe the nick name was the Aunt Gemima
Click to expand...

First I've heard that the American used the crabs from what I've read the British crews and tanks were lent to the Armeican army
 
uksubs said:
First I've heard that the American used the crabs from what I've read the British crews and tanks were lent to the Armeican army
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You are correct, but in this case these were operated by an American Division. This is what the research I did suggests. Maybe someone could shed more light on the subject.

Just did some more research It show the US 739th Tank Battalion using the Crab also

Although the US Army ordered fifty Crab Flails in February 1944 for the D-Day landings, the British army had problems providing enough for their own units and so a handful only began to trickle in to US units in July 1944. A Crab platoon was formed in the 2nd Armored Division, and during operations around St. Lo in mid-July 1944 these tanks were assigned to the 747th Tank Battalion, supporting the 29th Division.
 
Lovely photo with the dust coming off the tracks and all the ruined buildings in the background. Very well done! The bloody thing must have made one hell of a racket though when clearing the mines!

Tom
 
TomNT said:
Lovely photo with the dust coming off the tracks and all the ruined buildings in the background. Very well done! The bloody thing must have made one hell of a racket though when clearing the mines!

Tom
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I don't know we couldn't get the Flail to work :wink2: {sm4}
 
Great pictures and effects-that Crab is a great looking item.
mike
 
Mikew9717 said:
Great pictures and effects-that Crab is a great looking item.
mike
Click to expand...

I am glad you all enjoyed this pic......Thanks for your complements.

I love the Crab.....And especially the conversion to the US one. You know BSP likes destruction, and St. Lo surely was the place for it. This is part of Episode IV of TGC.


What effects ! ...I was there and caught a lucky shot of it coming down the road :wink2: ^&grin
 
Firebat said:
I don't know we couldn't get the Flail to work :wink2: {sm4}
Click to expand...

Hmm, i probably should have said "the real thing must have made one hell of a racket when clearing the mines"!! :wink2:

Tom
 
Firebat said:
The Americans for some reason would not utilize Hobarts Funnies on D-Day...It was probably an ego thing. But I guess they finally saw the benefit, and in July, during actions at St. Lo, the first crabs were employed by the 747th Tank Battalion of the 2nd Armored Division. It is said that the Americans did like the Sherman with the huge rollers better for mine clearing. I believe the nick name was the Aunt Gemima
Click to expand...

How about changing the "ego thing" to a "supply thing"? Contrary to legend the US Army was NOT against most of the "funnies" it's just that the British workshops could barely supply the Commonwealth troops (and several units were short of their full quota). There were none left for the US Army, especially when one allows for the fact that you don't just need to add the modified tanks, you need to train the crews and integrate the special armor into an already complex beach assault plan. It just wasn't gonna happen! In Richard Anderson's really fine book "Cracking Hitler's Atlantic Wall" (http://www.amazon.com/Cracking-Hitl...5897/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1327266246&sr=8-1) this topic is coverd in detail. Anderson also points out a detail that is overlooked by the British authors who started the whole "US Army was too arrogant to use our wonderful tanks" - the bloody bluffs on Omaha Beach. Even the Churchill's hill climbing ability couldn't climb those bluffs, so the "funnies" would have been stuck on the beach like the surviving Shermans and would have taken heavy losses along with the gun tanks. Their weapons wouldn't have been effective against the major German positions that were up on the bluffs.

Yes, there were several occasions where the US Army had support from elements of the British 79th Armoured Division for Crabs and/or Crocodiles. I would have to look it up, but the only "Crab" tanks that I am aware of in full US ownership were based on the M4 (versus the standard British "Crab" which was based on the M4A4, or Sherman V). There certyainly may have been some Sherman V "Crabs" transferred to US ownership.

Later in the European campaign there were two specialized "mine explder" tank battalions set up under the ETOUSA. The 738th was assigned to First US Army and the 739th was assigned to Ninth US Army. Both of these had been organized and trained as "Leaflet" battalions, which were to use the Canal Defense Light tanks for supporting mass night attacks. After the collapse of the CDL program the US Army converted several of the six battalions to regular tank battalions, but the 738th and 739th were set up as "Tank Battalion, Special (Mine Exploder". These two units also operated other unusual armor in support of US units. I think the five US M4 "Crabs" went to the 738th (again, I would have to look that up). Both the 738th and 739th operated a number of T1E1 "Earthworm" and T1E3 "Aunt Jemima" mine roller devices.

Gary B.
 
binder001 said:
How about changing the "ego thing" to a "supply thing"? Contrary to legend the US Army was NOT against most of the "funnies" it's just that the British workshops could barely supply the Commonwealth troops (and several units were short of their full quota). There were none left for the US Army, especially when one allows for the fact that you don't just need to add the modified tanks, you need to train the crews and integrate the special armor into an already complex beach assault plan. It just wasn't gonna happen! In Richard Anderson's really fine book "Cracking Hitler's Atlantic Wall" (http://www.amazon.com/Cracking-Hitl...5897/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1327266246&sr=8-1) this topic is coverd in detail. Anderson also points out a detail that is overlooked by the British authors who started the whole "US Army was too arrogant to use our wonderful tanks" - the bloody bluffs on Omaha Beach. Even the Churchill's hill climbing ability couldn't climb those bluffs, so the "funnies" would have been stuck on the beach like the surviving Shermans and would have taken heavy losses along with the gun tanks. Their weapons wouldn't have been effective against the major German positions that were up on the bluffs.

Yes, there were several occasions where the US Army had support from elements of the British 79th Armoured Division for Crabs and/or Crocodiles. I would have to look it up, but the only "Crab" tanks that I am aware of in full US ownership were based on the M4 (versus the standard British "Crab" which was based on the M4A4, or Sherman V). There certyainly may have been some Sherman V "Crabs" transferred to US ownership.

Later in the European campaign there were two specialized "mine explder" tank battalions set up under the ETOUSA. The 738th was assigned to First US Army and the 739th was assigned to Ninth US Army. Both of these had been organized and trained as "Leaflet" battalions, which were to use the Canal Defense Light tanks for supporting mass night attacks. After the collapse of the CDL program the US Army converted several of the six battalions to regular tank battalions, but the 738th and 739th were set up as "Tank Battalion, Special (Mine Exploder". These two units also operated other unusual armor in support of US units. I think the five US M4 "Crabs" went to the 738th (again, I would have to look that up). Both the 738th and 739th operated a number of T1E1 "Earthworm" and T1E3 "Aunt Jemima" mine roller devices.

Gary B.
Click to expand...

The Crab is an interesting and somewhat clouded topic........Your research sheds interesting light on the subject.
 
binder001 said:
How about changing the "ego thing" to a "supply thing"? Contrary to legend the US Army was NOT against most of the "funnies" it's just that the British workshops could barely supply the Commonwealth troops (and several units were short of their full quota). There were none left for the US Army, especially when one allows for the fact that you don't just need to add the modified tanks, you need to train the crews and integrate the special armor into an already complex beach assault plan. It just wasn't gonna happen! In Richard Anderson's really fine book "Cracking Hitler's Atlantic Wall" (http://www.amazon.com/Cracking-Hitl...5897/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1327266246&sr=8-1) this topic is coverd in detail. Anderson also points out a detail that is overlooked by the British authors who started the whole "US Army was too arrogant to use our wonderful tanks" - the bloody bluffs on Omaha Beach. Even the Churchill's hill climbing ability couldn't climb those bluffs, so the "funnies" would have been stuck on the beach like the surviving Shermans and would have taken heavy losses along with the gun tanks. Their weapons wouldn't have been effective against the major German positions that were up on the bluffs.

Yes, there were several occasions where the US Army had support from elements of the British 79th Armoured Division for Crabs and/or Crocodiles. I would have to look it up, but the only "Crab" tanks that I am aware of in full US ownership were based on the M4 (versus the standard British "Crab" which was based on the M4A4, or Sherman V). There certyainly may have been some Sherman V "Crabs" transferred to US ownership.

Later in the European campaign there were two specialized "mine explder" tank battalions set up under the ETOUSA. The 738th was assigned to First US Army and the 739th was assigned to Ninth US Army. Both of these had been organized and trained as "Leaflet" battalions, which were to use the Canal Defense Light tanks for supporting mass night attacks. After the collapse of the CDL program the US Army converted several of the six battalions to regular tank battalions, but the 738th and 739th were set up as "Tank Battalion, Special (Mine Exploder". These two units also operated other unusual armor in support of US units. I think the five US M4 "Crabs" went to the 738th (again, I would have to look that up). Both the 738th and 739th operated a number of T1E1 "Earthworm" and T1E3 "Aunt Jemima" mine roller devices.

Gary B.
Click to expand...

Very good post. It is a widely believed "fact" that the Americans refused to use Hobart's funnies out of arrogance because the Brits invented them. Not true. The Americans readily adopted many Brit technologies that were invented during the war. If my memory is correct, the Canadians had some of the funnies but they were operated by Brits from the Royal Engineers. As for the flail tank, the Americans preferred their two roller versions.

Terry
 
I read somewhere the tanks were covered with unexploded mines after clearing ops! {eek3} Still, better to disarm them than working them in the ground. Chris
 
Firebat said:
I don't know we couldn't get the Flail to work :wink2: {sm4}
Click to expand...

It's not so much that anybody couldn't get things to work. The US Army just happened to think that rollers were the way to go versus the flail. The US has pursued rollers ever since, there were all kinds of experimental roller devices ever since WW2. There were a couple types deployed to Viet Nam and I believe that there is a roller as well as a mine plow still in use.

Gary B
 
By the way, I forgot to mention that IS one heck of a picture. Good set up, nice model - great work!

Gary B.
 
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