D-day landings & hitlers panzer reserves (1 Viewer)

[PanzerAce1944]

Always found this most interesting. Why Did Hitler refuse to release his Panzer reserve at Normandy to push the allies back into the channel.Was the Pais de Calais ploy really executed so well that they thought the main invasion was still coming from that location ? We all know the details of the deception plan to fool the Germans that Calais was "it". Fake vehicles, phony armies, deceptive radio traffic and even Patton strategically placed there to make it appear that he was in charge of the big one to come. Then comes the 6th of June 1944. Scores and scores of ships to the direct front of the Normandy coast......a massive aerial bombardment prior to the landing craft approaching, and numerous paratroopers dropped behind the coastal fortifications all spelled one thing to the German high command.Normandy was a diversion !!!! Once the Germans realised that this in fact was the real deal and after DER Fuhrer was awakened from his comfy little nap did the tanks get permission to roll towards the coast. Too late as the allies already established their break outs from the beaches. So the point of discussion to answer here is do you think the invasion would have failed if German armor had immediatly been pressed into action ? Luckily for "our" hero's they did not !!!

 

[trooper]

The German armour would undoubtedly have altered the progress of the war but would not have arrived in time to prevent the establishment of the beachead. The French resistance sabotaged the rail networks and blocked most of the roads with fallen trees which delayed their advance. With Allied air supremacy the extra tanks would just have provided more targets. The most they could have achieved would have been to slow down the inevitable. Trooper

 

[uksubs]

The German armour would undoubtedly have altered the progress of the war but would not have arrived in time to prevent the establishment of the beachead. The French resistance sabotaged the rail networks and blocked most of the roads with fallen trees which delayed their advance. With Allied air supremacy the extra tanks would just have provided more targets. The most they could have achieved would have been to slow down the inevitable. Trooper

Think your spot on, biggest problem for the Germans was the armour was to far away from the beaches to have a impact and left it open to attack for allied air power , that why the allies air forces spent six month before blowing up bridges & trains to make it very hard for the Germans to move stuff around fast

 

[Mitch]

I think its probably the differences in opinion from Rommell Runstead and Hitler at the best way to deploy these assets.

I think its thankful that Rommel did not get his way and have even relatively small panzer units right at the beaches as they would have caused carnage to the troops landing

Hitler was the best asset to the allies in that period of the war
Mitch

 

[lancer]

Agree with earlier statements. The armor would have made things tougher but it was just too dispersed, initially, and too far away to have been decisive. Lots of credit needs to go to the disinformation campaign that the Allies used prior to the invasion. -- Al

 

[Currahee Chris]

I have often wondered about this as well. It would have been really interesting to see what might have happened- perhaps the Shock and awe affect of the German armor would have slowed things considerably and the Allied high command would have been forced to make bad gambles....who knows.

For all the German army's advances, their intelligence arm was just atrocious. I couldn't imagine being the German noncom calling in to Rommel- Yeah sir, I've got the largest naval armada that the world has ever seen reshaping the entire coastline here- what's that?? Oh, the Fuhrer believes that the actual assault is coming in Calais- ok..... not sure what we are gonna do about that mess but we have our hands pretty full here. " {sm4}

The unfortunate thing- Spring 1950- the North Koreans build up an army along the Z and we kept telling ourselves- they aren't coming, let's fallback. Guess what, a couple months later- they came!! They sort of took a play from our playbook and we couldn't even stop it!! {sm2}

 

[PanzerAce1944]

I think Mitch brought up a good point in an adjacent thread.Military planners back then did think and plan differently than they do today.There is no way the U.S.
Army today would assault Omaha beach while MG42 machine guns shot up the troops as the ramps dropped on the landing craft.One thing that leaders back then could have easily done better would have been to use the naval gun assets more thoroughly to take out the enemy's defensive positions. I realise there "was" a naval bombardment done prior to the first troops going in but once the first wave of troops went in and sustained the heavy casualties that they did, it would have been appropriate to hold off on the assault craft and resume the naval gunfire.Even for another 5 minutes of shelling would have been better than what those poor men endured !
Then there are the bombers dropping their ordnance prior to the landings.Only problem there was most of the bombs dropped were miles behind the fortifications !
All points, opinions and arguments put aside ..............................................
It is quite easy to sit back 60 or 70 years later after all events transpired and sharpshoot who did what,when, and why. I think one thing is safe to say..... Austrian corporals do not make very good decisions during major armed conflicts.{sm3} Luckily for our men Rommel did not get things his way, otherwise our forefathers would have been facing armor already on the cliffs of Normandy as the ramps went down on their landing craft. {sm2}

 

[Phantom Warrior]

The German armour would undoubtedly have altered the progress of the war but would not have arrived in time to prevent the establishment of the beachead. The French resistance sabotaged the rail networks and blocked most of the roads with fallen trees which delayed their advance. With Allied air supremacy the extra tanks would just have provided more targets. The most they could have achieved would have been to slow down the inevitable. Trooper

And the other fear Rommel had was bringing the Panzers within range of the naval artillery in the channel

Terry

 

[PanzerAce1944]

And the other fear Rommel had was bringing the Panzers within range of the naval artillery in the channel

Terry

I would assume the tanks would have been set back a bit and dug in and protected. Then brought up to the "nearby" coast as needed.But this is neither here nor there as ...... "It never happened" {sm2}

 

[theBaron]

The Pas de Calais ruse worked so well, because most of the Germans expected the invasion to land there. It's easier to fool someone, if he already expects a certain outcome.

No doubt that having armor in close promixity to the coast would have made it much harder for the invasion to get a foothold. And even with the disruptions to rail and road traffic prior to the landings, if the Germans had had more armor in place, it might not have stopped the invasion, but it might have made it costlier. What if they had had more armor units stationed where the air drops were planned, for example? Arnhem provides an example of what that might have been like.

Prost!
Brad

 

[lancer]

As mentioned, the air and sea bombardments weren't as effective as they might have been. One of the more important reasons for this was the Allied wish to restrict collateral damage to the French population living in the invasion areas. The population could not be warned to vacate, for the obvious reason of alerting the Germans, so bombing and shelling had to be selective instead of all inclusive. It would have been unacceptable, both politically and humanely, to pulverize everything in the invasion region. -- Al

 

[Currahee Chris]

There is no way the U.S.
Army today would assault Omaha beach while MG42 machine guns shot up the troops as the ramps dropped on the landing craft.

Don't be so sure of that boss, the old ways are always some of the best ways.{sm4}{sm3}

I always like to imagine Apache's and Blackhawks straffing the beach as the troopers were charging in.

 

[uksubs]

Don't be so sure of that boss, the old ways are always some of the best ways.{sm4}{sm3}

I always like to imagine Apache's and Blackhawks straffing the beach as the troopers were charging in.

I read the days of big beach landings are over as missile technology is that good you could not defend your ships {sm2}

 

[uksubs]

As mentioned, the air and sea bombardments weren't as effective as they might have been. One of the more important reasons for this was the Allied wish to restrict collateral damage to the French population living in the invasion areas. The population could not be warned to vacate, for the obvious reason of alerting the Germans, so bombing and shelling had to be selective instead of all inclusive. It would have been unacceptable, both politically and humanely, to pulverize everything in the invasion region. -- Al

I think you got to take into account there was nothing but a direct hit from a 22000 pound Grand slam bomb would take them German bunkers out , & you got to remember this in the day before laser guided bombs

 

[Thompyt]

Don't be so sure of that boss, the old ways are always some of the best ways.{sm4}{sm3}

I always like to imagine Apache's and Blackhawks straffing the beach as the troopers were charging in.

Sounds like a comment from a US Marine.

 

[Thompyt]

It was also the difficulty in communications between headquarters units and the in-ability of the younger to mid officer corps wanting to make the decision to alert higher.

 

[Currahee Chris]

Sounds like a comment from a US Marine.

pshhht, I wouldn't mix with that rabble!! {sm4}{sm4}{sm4} (interservice humor no disrespect meant in the least.)

Soooo, we have another Texan in the ranks eh??? Welcome aboard bud, good to see you here- the Texans on the board are a very fun bunch and the board is all around much better for them here.

 

[PanzerAce1944]

Don't be so sure of that boss, the old ways are always some of the best ways.{sm4}{sm3}

I always like to imagine Apache's and Blackhawks straffing the beach as the troopers were charging in.

You lead.... I'll follow you !{eek3}

 

[Currahee Chris]

You lead.... I'll follow you !{eek3}

{sm4}{sm3}{sm2}

 

[Louis Badolato]

The Allied Deception effort, code named Operation Bodyguard, prior to the Normandy invasion was one of the greatest misinformation campaigns of all time. Operation Bodyguard was intended to use deception to fix German forces in areas away from the actual invasion site on the Cotentin Peninsula in Normandy.

One of the key elements of Operation Bodyguard was code named ‘Fortitude South’ -- a fictitious invasion effort directed against coastal Belgium and northern France in the Dover Straits area.

The Allies started with the fact that the German High Command believed our sea-borne invasion force would cross the treacherous waters of the English Channel via the shortest possible route, that being the Pas de Calais, or the Straits of Dover. Photo reconnaissance demonstrated that the Axis has concentrated its defensive efforts in this area. The success of Operation Bodyguard reinforced Hitler's belief that this was to be the actual invasion site, and Allied forces derived two critical benefits: (1) powerful defensive resources were focused at the Pas de Calais, far from the actual invasion, (2) the actual invasion was masked as a diversion, buying the Allied forces more time to land reinforcements, secure the beachhead and break out.

Fortitude South was the backbone of the entire deception effort. This included the notional 50 division First U.S. Army Group (FUSAG) ‘poised’ for a continental invasion across the Pas de Calais. The creation of FUSAG, code named Quicksilver, was no small effort. It was the largest, most elaborate, most carefully-planned, and most vital, of all the Allied deception operations. It made full use of the years of experience gained in every branch of the deceptive art -- visual deception and misdirection, the deployment of dummy landing craft, aircraft, and paratroops, fake lighting schemes, radio deception, sonic devices, and a whole fictitious army group, complete with ‘camps’ made of Hollywood style ‘back-lot buildings’ and filled with literally hundreds of inflatable tanks and trucks.

The final piece in the deception puzzle was "Garbo" a Spaniard the Nazi's believed was a fascist agent, who was actually a British double agent. Garbo had always fed the Nazi's accurate (but outdated or unimportant) information, and they trusted him. A few hours prior to the launch of the invasion Garbo contacted the Nazis and told them that there would be an invasion in Normandy on June 6th, but that is was a feint, and the real invasion with FUSAG was occurring a week later in the Pas De Calais. The Nazi's seeing the invasion hit right when and where Garbo told them it would in Normandy, bought that it was a false invasion hook line and sinker, and refused to move their forces out of the Pas de Calais for weeks. After the War Garbo was awarded the highest civilian award given out by Great Britain (I think the George Cross - Rob, help me out:wink2.

The men behind Operation Bodyguard were responsible, in great part, for the success of Operation Overlord, and saved countless Allied lives. We owe them a great debt of gratitude.