D-day landings & hitlers panzer reserves (3 Viewers)

[uksubs]

The Allied Deception effort, code named Operation Bodyguard, prior to the Normandy invasion was one of the greatest misinformation campaigns of all time. Operation Bodyguard was intended to use deception to fix German forces in areas away from the actual invasion site on the Cotentin Peninsula in Normandy.

One of the key elements of Operation Bodyguard was code named ‘Fortitude South’ -- a fictitious invasion effort directed against coastal Belgium and northern France in the Dover Straits area.

The Allies started with the fact that the German High Command believed our sea-borne invasion force would cross the treacherous waters of the English Channel via the shortest possible route, that being the Pas de Calais, or the Straits of Dover. Photo reconnaissance demonstrated that the Axis has concentrated its defensive efforts in this area. The success of Operation Bodyguard reinforced Hitler's belief that this was to be the actual invasion site, and Allied forces derived two critical benefits: (1) powerful defensive resources were focused at the Pas de Calais, far from the actual invasion, (2) the actual invasion was masked as a diversion, buying the Allied forces more time to land reinforcements, secure the beachhead and break out.

Fortitude South was the backbone of the entire deception effort. This included the notional 50 division First U.S. Army Group (FUSAG) ‘poised’ for a continental invasion across the Pas de Calais. The creation of FUSAG, code named Quicksilver, was no small effort. It was the largest, most elaborate, most carefully-planned, and most vital, of all the Allied deception operations. It made full use of the years of experience gained in every branch of the deceptive art -- visual deception and misdirection, the deployment of dummy landing craft, aircraft, and paratroops, fake lighting schemes, radio deception, sonic devices, and a whole fictitious army group, complete with ‘camps’ made of Hollywood style ‘back-lot buildings’ and filled with literally hundreds of inflatable tanks and trucks.

The final piece in the deception puzzle was "Garbo" a Spaniard the Nazi's believed was a fascist agent, who was actually a British double agent. Garbo had always fed the Nazi's accurate (but outdated or unimportant) information, and they trusted him. A few hours prior to the launch of the invasion Garbo contacted the Nazis and told them that there would be an invasion in Normandy on June 6th, but that is was a feint, and the real invasion with FUSAG was occurring a week later in the Pas De Calais. The Nazi's seeing the invasion hit right when and where Garbo told them it would in Normandy, bought that it was a false invasion hook line and sinker, and refused to move their forces out of the Pas de Calais for weeks. After the War Garbo was awarded the highest civilian award given out by Great Britain (I think the George Cross - Rob, help me out:wink2.

The men behind Operation Bodyguard were responsible, in great part, for the success of Operation Overlord, and saved countless Allied lives. We owe them a great debt of gratitude.

To add to this great post the RAF help with this plan
Operation Taxable was the codename for one of the deception operations used by the Allied forces during World War II in connection with the Normandy landings (Operation Overlord). This in conjunction with Operation Glimmer, was conducted by aircraft of the Royal Air Force to create a fake threat to induce the Germans to believe that the main invasion of France would occur in the Pas de Calais rather than Normandy.

Both operations were carried out by the precise flying of elongated circuits and dropping of Window or metal foil chaff. This foil when falling appeared on German radar as though a flotilla of ships were approaching; a ruse added to by the sailing of eight Harbour Defence Motor Launches beneath the route of the aircraft adding radio "chatter".

The flying for Operation Taxable was undertaken by Avro Lancasters of the famous No. 617 Squadron RAF or "Dam Busters" with an intended route of the Cap d'Antifer, while operation Glimmer was undertaken by Short Stirling bombers of No. 218 (Gold Coast) Squadron RAF aiming for the Boulogne.

Both squadrons were tasked with precise, accurate flying, with the replacement aircraft having to fall into the circuits perfectly and the routine dropping of the "window" continued with neither overlap nor gap in the pattern.

As with operation Glimmer, the last aircraft of 617 squadron had the pleasure of witnessing German shore batteries opening fire on the "Ghost" convoy.

The RAF conducted another deception operation at the same time Operation Titanic which involved the dropping of dummy parachutists in the areas to the east and west of the Normandy landings.

 

[trooper]

Another small, but significant, factor influencing the success of the deception plan was Hitler's inflated self opinion. He had chosen the Straits of Dover route for Operation Sealion and therefore, in his opinion, this was the only route to take. In many respects the Allies were better off with him alive than dead and the undercover plan to assasinate him was abandoned. Trooper

 

[DMNamiot]

I think Mitch brought up a good point in an adjacent thread.Military planners back then did think and plan differently than they do today.There is no way the U.S.
Army today would assault Omaha beach while MG42 machine guns shot up the troops as the ramps dropped on the landing craft.One thing that leaders back then could have easily done better would have been to use the naval gun assets more thoroughly to take out the enemy's defensive positions. I realise there "was" a naval bombardment done prior to the first troops going in but once the first wave of troops went in and sustained the heavy casualties that they did, it would have been appropriate to hold off on the assault craft and resume the naval gunfire.Even for another 5 minutes of shelling would have been better than what those poor men endured !
Then there are the bombers dropping their ordnance prior to the landings.Only problem there was most of the bombs dropped were miles behind the fortifications !
All points, opinions and arguments put aside ..............................................
It is quite easy to sit back 60 or 70 years later after all events transpired and sharpshoot who did what,when, and why. I think one thing is safe to say..... Austrian corporals do not make very good decisions during major armed conflicts.{sm3} Luckily for our men Rommel did not get things his way, otherwise our forefathers would have been facing armor already on the cliffs of Normandy as the ramps went down on their landing craft. {sm2}

Interesting thoughts, another point that has not been made from what I've seen is that there was a lot of obscuration over the beaches in the early morning due to clouds as well as our own guns and the 329 bombers from the 8th, 9th Air Forces and the RAF, that were susposed to hit Omaha Beach and the gun positions on the bluffs directly behind it couldnt see it and didnt want to hit their own guys so they ended up dropping their bombs on alternate targets that were up to three miles inland.

Another point that hasnt been made was the Navy did some amazing things in very shallow water with destroyers coming in so close they were actually engaged by the German Guns and in one case hit a sea mine and lost the ship.

All in all this is an interesting discussion and since I was in in Normandy recently I have to say that the Army of the 1940's had some very brave and bold men in its ranks.

Dave

 

[Rob]

Interesting thoughts, another point that has not been made from what I've seen is that there was a lot of obscuration over the beaches in the early morning due to clouds as well as our own guns and the 329 bombers from the 8th, 9th Air Forces and the RAF, that were susposed to hit Omaha Beach and the gun positions on the bluffs directly behind it couldnt see it and didnt want to hit their own guys so they ended up dropping their bombs on alternate targets that were up to three miles inland.

Another point that hasnt been made was the Navy did some amazing things in very shallow water with destroyers coming in so close they were actually engaged by the German Guns and in one case hit a sea mine and lost the ship.

All in all this is an interesting discussion and since I was in in Normandy recently I have to say that the Army of the 1940's had some very brave and bold men in its ranks.

Dave

I would like to second Dave's salute to the work carried out by Ships bombarding the Normandy coast on D Day and beyond. Its easy to find extensive damage and totally destroyed bunkers when you visit Normandy, a testament to the power and accuracy of the fire directed at the German defenders. Also ships like HMS Belfast provided supporting fire and broke up German counter attacks for weeks after D Day. Directed by both air recon and ground spotters, such was the effectiveness of this work that Von Rundstedt said at some points attacks were impossible. HMS Belfast fired thousands of rounds at enemy positions with her final salvo being on the 8th July when the Allied advance finally went beyond her guns. All these ships did stirling work in destroying German armour, killing Soldiers and breaking up attacks, their work saved many allied lives and helped break German spirit in those days of very hard fighting.

Rob

 

[Currahee Chris]

Another point that hasnt been made was the Navy did some amazing things in very shallow water with destroyers coming in so close they were actually engaged by the German Guns and in one case hit a sea mine and lost the ship.

All in all this is an interesting discussion and since I was in in Normandy recently I have to say that the Army of the 1940's had some very brave and bold men in its ranks.

Dave

SELLOUT!! {sm4} How are you going to give the Navy of all branches any credit for Overlord?? {sm4}{sm4}

And to further add to that, the bravery of those fine fighting men in the 40's pumps proud and true through their grandsons (and daughters) today.

 

[Mitch]

ain't that the truth!!!
Mitch

 

[Rob]

SELLOUT!! {sm4} How are you going to give the Navy of all branches any credit for Overlord?? {sm4}{sm4}

And to further add to that, the bravery of those fine fighting men in the 40's pumps proud and true through their grandsons (and daughters) today.

Well said.The admiration for that generation, what they did and what they sacrificed to rid us of the Nazis and give us freedom, defies sufficient gratitude and admiration will be eternal.

Rob

 

[fmethorst]

Speaking of Panzer reserves there is a certain irony that II.SS-Panzerkorps which included 9.SS-Panzerdivision "Hohenstaufen" and 10.SS-Panzerdivision "Frundsberg" was not present at the time of the attack despite the fact that these units were raised specifically to counter the invasion threat. They had even received additional training to deal with airborne operations, something that would come back to haunt the Allies at Arnhem. They were not present because they were on the east front dealing with yet another crisis there.

 

[Currahee Chris]

...They were not present because they were on the east front dealing with yet another crisis there.

Mildly understated my friend. {sm4}{sm4}

Excellent post as always.

 

[PanzerAce1944]

Mildly understated my friend. {sm4}{sm4}

Excellent post as always.

Tough to defend when you are getting attacked from all sides {sm2}

 

[lancer]

Tough to defend when you are getting attacked from all sides {sm2}

Getting attacked from all sides is what you get when you make war on everyone around you. Wonder how many times Adolf smacked himself in the head and said "doh!" over the 1939-1945 time period. -- Al

 

[PanzerAce1944]

Lancer, I totally agree. Attack all of your neighbors and one day they all come at you hard ! {eek3}

 

[Terp152]

Back to the original question of "would the committment of the armor reserves made a difference?" Elements of one PZ Grenadier Regt (21st PZ ?) actually made it to the beach. Would not more have succeeded if the armor reserve been sent in promptly on D Day, especially if positioned closer to the assault zone? Ambrose addressed this very scenario, the difference of defense strategies between Rommel and Von Runstedt, in one of his books. His conclusion, if remembered correctly, was Allied naval and air support would have destroyed the reserves. He based hsi conclusion on the effectiveness of the offshore support others have mentioned in this trhead. But would it have been in time to prevent prohibitively high Allied casualties and the loss of one or more beach heads? Chris

 

[Louis Badolato]

I think Ambrose was dead wrong. The Tanks the Germans did have within the hedgerow areas were able to contain the Allies in the beachhead from June 6th until the break out well over a month later. The reason the break out was possible at all is the Nazi armored reserves simply could not move by day because of Allied air supremacy. Had the tanks been within range of the beaches on D-Day, as Rommell desired, Operation Overlord, which was a very close run thing on Omaha Beach without the Armor, would have been an unmitigated disaster.

I look at it this way, with all the help the Navy provided, the first wave on Omaha Beach took more than 50% casualties.

On Gold, Juno and Sword, the British and Canadians took far smaller casualties because of the presence of the funnies, which made fairly quick work of the beach defenses. However, Tigers, Panthers and Panver IV's would have made fast work of Hobart's Funnies as they attempted to come ashore, and the forces landing on these beaches would have sustained obscenely high casualties as well. If the first wave had been thrown back into the water, and the tanks on the bluffs had been in position to shell the landing craft as they approached the beaches, I don't know how the Allies would have ever established a beachhead.

 

[trooper]

I agree that the presence of the panzers would have increased the Allied losses. But the beacheads weren't "contained" by the tanks until the breakout, the Allies built them up until they were ready to breakout. The presence of the tanks did nothing to prevent that. In addition, to shell the beaches thay would have had to move to positions visible from the naval vessels and would have been exposed to their gunfire and a tank is a far softer target than a concrete bunker. It has been mentioned that the panzers were unable to travel by night due to Allied air supremacy, the landings took place in daylight so the aircraft would have had a field day. No, as stated previously the panzers would have lifted the casulaty numbers but in the end would have made no difference to the ultimate outcome. Trooper

 

[Mitch]

Whats missed in this partly is that Rommell wanted Panzers on the beaches fighting against lightly defended the troops. Its hard to shell a tank when your troops are close by. Rommells writings and reports of the invasion and pre invasion were to smash the allies on the beach itself. He wanted panzers heavily dug in metres from the beaches not in reserve where they were.

Its arguable that a very small amount of panzers had they survived the inital bombardment which, was not as effective as some believe could have played havoc and stopped parts of the landings. Lets remember how hard Omaha was without any armour. Had Omaha failed I don't think it would have been the end of Overlord as, there were insufficient troops in the area to attack the beaches from that point. It would have been much harder but, as Trooper states the outcome would have been the same but, with more casualties.

As I said our best asset was Hitler
Mitch

 

[lancer]

I think that had the Omaha landings failed, a successful invasion might not have occurred. The simple fact is that a failed Omaha landing would have left two widely separated beachheads. Such a gap between the beachheads would have been fatal. This would have made containing the invasion a much easier proposition for the Germans. The invasion could have been successful with a failure of the landings on either flank, but not the major, two division landing at Omaha. -- Al

 

[Louis Badolato]

I think that had the Omaha landings failed, a successful invasion might not have occurred. The simple fact is that a failed Omaha landing would have left two widely separated beachheads. Such a gap between the beachheads would have been fatal. This would have made containing the invasion a much easier proposition for the Germans. The invasion could have been successful with a failure of the landings on either flank, but not the major, two division landing at Omaha. -- Al

Overloard would have been a disaster if the Nazis were able to split the beachheads at Omaha. As Mitch correctly pointed out:

"Rommell wanted Panzers on the beaches fighting against lightly defended the troops. Its hard to shell a tank when your troops are close by. Rommells writings and reports of the invasion and pre invasion were to smash the allies on the beach itself. He wanted panzers heavily dug in metres from the beaches not in reserve where they were.

Its arguable that a very small amount of panzers had they survived the inital bombardment which, was not as effective as some believe could have played havoc and stopped parts of the landings."

If this had happened, our forces would have been in real trouble, especially considering that we were in a very limited weather/tidal window for forcing an opposed landing.

 

[Terp152]

Louis, have to agree with your analysis. The failure of Allied intelligence to locate the 352nd Div at the Omaha site nearly led to disaster. Placement of armor there would probably have led to repulse as you stated.

Trooper, the Allied movement inland was far behind the D+ lines planned by SHAEF. We were stuck and had to grind it out for weeks and initiate new weapons such as the hedgerow cutters to try to break the stalemate. It wasn't until the use of carpet bombing in tactical support that we were able to breakout.

Chris

 

[Mitch]

Not just picking points from your posts but, I would suggest that the terrain itself was a major player in the defense of the bocage area of normandy. The germans were supremaly able to fight the allies in these conditions sticking a panzerschreck tank or artillery barral through a hedge and killing a tank or troops then moving to another location was almsot impossible to tactic against. had the area not been like this I think the invasions and break out would have been much easier.Mitch


Al..

I think allied firepower from sea and especially, air would have meant that any attempt by the germans to move from this untaken beach head would have failed. The troops in that area were not sufficiently strong enough to have folded the other beaches IMO and, the good german units that were in the area would have had too much trouble moving into that area to cause the trouble you state.

The other beaches faced so little defence that they secured themselves quite well. It would have been a headache for the commanders to have to alter their plans but, I don't see how the germans with the units available could have taken the tactical advantage to spoil the invasion
Mitch

I think Ambrose was dead wrong. The Tanks the Germans did have within the hedgerow areas were able to contain the Allies in the beachhead from June 6th until the break out well over a month later. The reason the break out was possible at all is the Nazi armored reserves simply could not move by day because of Allied air supremacy. Had the tanks been within range of the beaches on D-Day, as Rommell desired, Operation Overlord, which was a very close run thing on Omaha Beach without the Armor, would have been an unmitigated disaster.

I look at it this way, with all the help the Navy provided, the first wave on Omaha Beach took more than 50% casualties.

On Gold, Juno and Sword, the British and Canadians took far smaller casualties because of the presence of the funnies, which made fairly quick work of the beach defenses. However, Tigers, Panthers and Panver IV's would have made fast work of Hobart's Funnies as they attempted to come ashore, and the forces landing on these beaches would have sustained obscenely high casualties as well. If the first wave had been thrown back into the water, and the tanks on the bluffs had been in position to shell the landing craft as they approached the beaches, I don't know how the Allies would have ever established a beachhead.