Dan Sickles at Gettysburg (1 Viewer)

[Rob]

Guys, Dan Sickles has had a lot of flak over the decades for his actions at Gettysburg in moving forward from his original position and forming a salient as a result. My question to you all is do you think the criticism aimed at him is justified or do you think or did it help blunt the attack of Longstreet's corps?

Would be interested in what you think guys.

Rob

 

[Louis Badolato]

Rob,

I posed this very question to the guide who took me for a tour of the battlefield a little more than a year ago. The guide, a retired U.S. Army Colonel and a Vietnam Veteran told me that not only did it not blunt Longstreet's attack, it precipitated it. Standing on Little Roundtop, he pointed at the distant treeline, I would estimate more than a half mile to a mile away, and told me that Longstreet's forces were marching along that treeline, perpendicular to my line of sight, and only attacked where they did because they saw Sickle's forces exposed out on the salient. He told me that had Sickles troops been disposed where they were supposed to be, the attack probably would not have fallen directly on them (as they were merely a target of opportunity because of where he improperly placed them) and, had it, they would have been supported by units on both sides and artillery.

 

[lancer]

Rob, we hashed this very question out on this forum a couple of years ago. Enter Dan Sickles in the forum search and several threads will come up. Bob (UKReb), had a very good answer. It is a very interesting subject. -- Al

 

[Go for Broke]

I could be wrong, but in the pics I posted in 150th Ann G-burg thread. Sickles came down to the right of Devil's den and you can see the tree line Louis is talking about. The pic with me and the cannon was part of Sickles position pointing toward the tree line with Little Roundtop in the background. Btw, was that area called the wheat field?

 

[Rob]

Rob,

I posed this very question to the guide who took me for a tour of the battlefield a little more than a year ago. The guide, a retired U.S. Army Colonel and a Vietnam Veteran told me that not only did it not blunt Longstreet's attack, it precipitated it. Standing on Little Roundtop, he pointed at the distant treeline, I would estimate more than a half mile to a mile away, and told me that Longstreet's forces were marching along that treeline, perpendicular to my line of sight, and only attacked where they did because they saw Sickle's forces exposed out on the salient. He told me that had Sickles troops been disposed where they were supposed to be, the attack probably would not have fallen directly on them (as they were merely a target of opportunity because of where he improperly placed them) and, had it, they would have been supported by units on both sides and artillery.

Thanks Louis, good to hear the view of the expert on the ground so to speak. I'd not thought of the attack on Sickles as opportunistic .

Rob, we hashed this very question out on this forum a couple of years ago. Enter Dan Sickles in the forum search and several threads will come up. Bob (UKReb), had a very good answer. It is a very interesting subject. -- Al

Hi Al, yes we did mate, its just I've been reading about it and I like to get you guys view on things, sorry for repeating myself and I'll do that search mate.

I could be wrong, but in the pics I posted in 150th Ann G-burg thread. Sickles came down to the right of Devil's den and you can see the tree line Louis is talking about. The pic with me and the cannon was part of Sickles position pointing toward the tree line with Little Roundtop in the background. Btw, was that area called the wheat field?

Wasn't Sickles near/in the Peach orchard? I too may be wrong here mate as I'm still a relative novice to Gettysburg.

Rob

 

[braddinpa]

My take on the situation is you have to take a step back and try to view it as Sickles might have viewed it. Two months Prior at the Battle of Chancellorsville, he did basically the same thing. Requesting to advance his Corp to See what Jackson was doing while he was doing flank march. He got as far as about Catherine Furnace. But the net effect was this left the 11th Corp isolated. And we all know what happened to them.

At Chancellorsville, he occupied a position called Hazel Grove. Good Artillery platform. He was pressured. But was ordered off the plain to a place called Fairview which was a lower elevation. Needless to say, Fairview was pounded.

Now fast forward 2 months to July 2nd. He knows confederates are out there. He knows the peach orchard higher elevation (read hazel grove). If Artillery is place there. They could create a problem for the union line. Also, he can keep an eye on Seminary Ridge a little better. So he decides to advance his corp. The problem is not enough men are available to man this long ragged line.

To me, I believe it was the wrong decision. But I understand why he did it. If you walk the line. You can see it is a much higher elevation. In fact the confederates did have artillery there on the 3rd day for Picketts charge.

As a side note. A confederate recon led by Captain Johnston on the morning of July 2nd came back and said little round top was unoccupied. Yet somehow he missed 8,000 3rd corp troops bivouacked just north of little round top.

I hope this long winded answer helps Rob. For me, I really enjoy studying the 2nd day at the Peach Orchard. Especially the 141st PA.

Brad

 

[Rob]

My take on the situation is you have to take a step back and try to view it as Sickles might have viewed it. Two months Prior at the Battle of Chancellorsville, he did basically the same thing. Requesting to advance his Corp to See what Jackson was doing while he was doing flank march. He got as far as about Catherine Furnace. But the net effect was this left the 11th Corp isolated. And we all know what happened to them.

At Chancellorsville, he occupied a position called Hazel Grove. Good Artillery platform. He was pressured. But was ordered off the plain to a place called Fairview which was a lower elevation. Needless to say, Fairview was pounded.

Now fast forward 2 months to July 2nd. He knows confederates are out there. He knows the peach orchard higher elevation (read hazel grove). If Artillery is place there. They could create a problem for the union line. Also, he can keep an eye on Seminary Ridge a little better. So he decides to advance his corp. The problem is not enough men are available to man this long ragged line.

To me, I believe it was the wrong decision. But I understand why he did it. If you walk the line. You can see it is a much higher elevation. In fact the confederates did have artillery there on the 3rd day for Picketts charge.

As a side note. A confederate recon led by Captain Johnston on the morning of July 2nd came back and said little round top was unoccupied. Yet somehow he missed 8,000 3rd corp troops bivouacked just north of little round top.

I hope this long winded answer helps Rob. For me, I really enjoy studying the 2nd day at the Peach Orchard. Especially the 141st PA.

Brad

Brad, not only is your reply not long winded but it is also much appreciated, interesting and helpful. Its easy to see now how is decision at Gettysburg may have been coloured by his experiences at Chancellorsville. I don't know if he made the right decision or not that day but along with everything else about G'burg it is totally fascinating the more I read. Thanks for taking the trouble to answer this Brad.

Rob

 

[braddinpa]

Brad, not only is your reply not long winded but it is also much appreciated, interesting and helpful. Its easy to see now how is decision at Gettysburg may have been coloured by his experiences at Chancellorsville. I don't know if he made the right decision or not that day but along with everything else about G'burg it is totally fascinating the more I read. Thanks for taking the trouble to answer this Brad.

Rob

Thanks Rob. I am an oddball person because I understand why he did it. His prior experience at Chancellorsville and the fact that the Sherfy Farm area provides a good Artillery platform. I never really understood it until I walked from Little round top to the Peach Orchard and thought. Wow, it is really high. One of the cool things is that the tree near where he lost his leg is still around. It is called a "witness tree". Also, at the Trostle Farm. One of the cannons is marked Dora. Nobody really knows what it means. But is is a Civil War Piece. (More useless trivia )

 

[Rob]

Thanks Rob. I am an oddball person because I understand why he did it. His prior experience at Chancellorsville and the fact that the Sherfy Farm area provides a good Artillery platform. I never really understood it until I walked from Little round top to the Peach Orchard and thought. Wow, it is really high. One of the cool things is that the tree near where he lost his leg is still around. It is called a "witness tree". Also, at the Trostle Farm. One of the cannons is marked Dora. Nobody really knows what it means. But is is a Civil War Piece. (More useless trivia )

Not useless to me mate I love all that sort of thing. On wikipedia they have a picture of Sickles leg preserved in a museum somewhere I believe!

Rob

 

[UKReb]

Rob

Al is right we all bashed Old Sickles on a thread awhile back and he still remains a controversial old dog. But Brad's summary and correlation to Sickle's experiences at Chancellorsville is imo quite valid.

One of my old history tutors often stated that "History is the story of humanity and of the human condition. Therefore historical analysis must always reflect and account for all the complexities and contradictions inherent in humanity itself" Putting that quote alongside Old Dan's decision on moving forward-at the time he simply decided that was right and went for it. Which really was no different to Chamberlain's decision later on the same day for his "swinging door" bayonet charge, except that one worked and made him a hero.

In conclusion the Confederates finally took the peach orchard but failed to shift Meade off of Cemetery Ridge. Therefore on reflection one could say that both Sickles and Marse Lee completely over-estimated the military value of the Peach Orchard.

Brad- The named cannon you referred to in a previous post is I believe named Cora not Dora-if it is the Napoleon adjacent to Bigelow's 9th Mass Artillery Battery monument which is adjacent to Abraham Trostle's farm

Bob

 

[Rob]

Rob

Al is right we all bashed Old Sickles on a thread awhile back and he still remains a controversial old dog. But Brad's summary and correlation to Sickle's experiences at Chancellorsville is imo quite valid.

One of my old history tutors often stated that "History is the story of humanity and of the human condition. Therefore historical analysis must always reflect and account for all the complexities and contradictions inherent in humanity itself" Putting that quote alongside Old Dan's decision on moving forward-at the time he simply decided that was right and went for it. Which really was no different to Chamberlain's decision later on the same day for his "swinging door" bayonet charge, except that one worked and made him a hero.

In conclusion the Confederates finally took the peach orchard but failed to shift Meade off of Cemetery Ridge. Therefore on reflection one could say that both Sickles and Marse Lee completely over-estimated the military value of the Peach Orchard.

Brad- The named cannon you referred to in a previous post is I believe named Cora not Dora-if it is the Napoleon adjacent to Bigelow's 9th Mass Artillery Battery monument which is adjacent to Abraham Trostle's farm

Bob

Thanks as always Bob, I was hoping you'd join in mate. Sorry for repeating thread but his actions and decisions behind them are fascinating. He sure had some bad press in his life didn't he?! I understand he shot someone in a duel (?). Didn't Meade ride out to berate him just as the Reb assault began. Would have liked to have heard that little tete -a-tete!

Rob

 

[Go for Broke]

Okay, I now know Sickles was at the Peach Orchard, not the Wheatfield (is there such a place at Gettysburg?). Was my description accurate (Peach Orchard near Devil's Den) on my previous post or was the Peach Orchard further toward Gettysburg town? Also I do recall Sickles position being in a somewhat elevated position, but was too forward of the union line. Is that right? Someone set me straight. I thought I knew some history, but you guys on this Forum are experts.

 

[Rob]

Okay, I now know Sickles was at the Peach Orchard, not the Wheatfield (is there such a place at Gettysburg?). Was my description accurate (Peach Orchard near Devil's Den) on my previous post or was the Peach Orchard further toward Gettysburg town? Also I do recall Sickles position being in a somewhat elevated position, but was too forward of the union line. Is that right? Someone set me straight. I thought I knew some history, but you guys on this Forum are experts.

The Peach orchard is quite a way in front of Devil's Den (there is the Wheatfield at G'Burg) and also a way from the Union line, hence Sickles getting a rollicking for going that far. He thought it a better position but it created a somewhat dangerous salient in the Union line.

Rob

 

[Terp152]

I could be wrong, but in the pics I posted in 150th Ann G-burg thread. Sickles came down to the right of Devil's den and you can see the tree line Louis is talking about. The pic with me and the cannon was part of Sickles position pointing toward the tree line with Little Roundtop in the background. Btw, was that area called the wheat field?

I remember one of the plaques of one Union battery position near Devil's Den with a quote from the battery capt, "Double canister, without sponging." Quite a dramatic moment for the gunners desperately facing Longstreet's attack. Chris

 

[Rob]

I remember one of the plaques of one Union battery position near Devil's Den with a quote from the battery capt, "Double canister, without sponging." Quite a dramatic moment for the gunners desperately facing Longstreet's attack. Chris

That's a smashing pic Chris, terrific scene , thanks for posting it here.

Rob

 

[braddinpa]

Hey Rob

Here are two picks I took in honor of you today to show the elevation of the peach orchard. Hope you enjoy!

 

[braddinpa]

Rob

Al is right we all bashed Old Sickles on a thread awhile back and he still remains a controversial old dog. But Brad's summary and correlation to Sickle's experiences at Chancellorsville is imo quite valid.

One of my old history tutors often stated that "History is the story of humanity and of the human condition. Therefore historical analysis must always reflect and account for all the complexities and contradictions inherent in humanity itself" Putting that quote alongside Old Dan's decision on moving forward-at the time he simply decided that was right and went for it. Which really was no different to Chamberlain's decision later on the same day for his "swinging door" bayonet charge, except that one worked and made him a hero.

In conclusion the Confederates finally took the peach orchard but failed to shift Meade off of Cemetery Ridge. Therefore on reflection one could say that both Sickles and Marse Lee completely over-estimated the military value of the Peach Orchard.

Brad- The named cannon you referred to in a previous post is I believe named Cora not Dora-if it is the Napoleon adjacent to Bigelow's 9th Mass Artillery Battery monument which is adjacent to Abraham Trostle's farm

Bob

Hi Bob

You are correct about Cora. I can't spell. Not dora

 

[Warrior]

Hey Rob

Here are two picks I took in honor of you today to show the elevation of the peach orchard. Hope you enjoy! View attachment 130484View attachment 130485

Brad,
Where did you take the second picture from, ie, what perspective is it as I don't recognize the ground...............

 

[braddinpa]

Brad,
Where did you take the second picture from, ie, what perspective is it as I don't recognize the ground...............

at the edge of the Rose Woods. Extreme Right flank of Brooke's Brigade. If I would have rotated the camera a bit to the right you would see the "rocky knoll."

 

[Toy Soldier Brigade]

The remains of his leg are on display at the Army Hospital in Bethesda MD. He use to visit it, and converse with it. He also laid in the Wheatfield most of the night in agony after he was shot. Another interesting fact was he had been recently acquitted of killing the guy his wife was having an affair with. My opinion is he wasn't the sharpest knife in the drawer.