Darker side of D Day (3 Viewers)

[Jack]

I always worry when I read discussions about the Holocaust that inevitably include the observation that 'we did bad things as well'. It is as though we cannot shake our desire to be fair long enough to recognise evil as evil. It leaves us with a world view in which there is no room for good and instead merely end up with different degrees of bad. It is not enough to say 'he who is without sin cast the first stone' because it leaves us morally impotent. We can still confront evil as flawed human beings. A Dresden does not explain, let alone excuse, an Auschwitz.

 

[Bayern]

I always worry when I read discussions about the Holocaust that inevitably include the observation that 'we did bad things as well'. It is as though we cannot shake our desire to be fair long enough to recognise evil as evil. It leaves us with a world view in which there is no room for good and instead merely end up with different degrees of bad. It is not enough to say 'he who is without sin cast the first stone' because it leaves us morally impotent. We can still confront evil as flawed human beings. A Dresden does not explain, let alone excuse, an Auschwitz.

...or excuse a Kenyan Gulag...very good.

Pick up Imperial Reckoning by Caroline Elkins.

As part of the Allied forces, thousands of Kenyans fought alongside the British in World War II. But just a few years after the defeat of Hitler, the British colonial government detained nearly the entire population of Kenya's largest ethnic minority, the Kikuyu-some one and a half million people.

The compelling story of the system of prisons and work camps where thousands met their deaths has remained largely untold-the victim of a determined effort by the British to destroy all official records of their attempts to stop the Mau Mau uprising, the Kikuyu people's ultimately successful bid for Kenyan independence.

Caroline Elkins, an assistant professor of history at Harvard University, spent a decade in London, Nairobi, and the Kenyan countryside interviewing hundreds of Kikuyu men and women who survived the British camps, as well as the British and African loyalists who detained them.

This was a few years after WWII. Thought we would have learned some lessons there.

The point I am making is let us look at all areas of murder and genocide.

 

[Poppo]

We all often hear of atrocities carried out by Germans in WW2, they are mostly well documentated. However you rarely hear of atrocities carried out by the allies. For many years it has been suggested that British and American airborne forces did not take prisoners early on the morning of 6th June 1944 although again not much is documentated or even mentioned. In a docu just the other day it suggested that the Americans captured one hundred and thirty Germans on Omaha beach and yet only sixty made it back to the prisoner collection point. It obviously let you use your imagination as to what happened to to them. With all docus' you have to keep an open mind, but my question is does anyone know of any documentation or description of the killing of German prisoners by allied troops on D day? Personally I think common sense says it did of course happen but just wondered if there are any accounts or witness statements?

Rob

I don' t know precisely about the murder of german prisoners in the D-day, but probably there have been....I know for example, of american troops who killed without no reason the civils living in an Sicilian village; or the colonial morroccan french troops who raped and killed during 3 days after Montecassino battle the italian civilians in few villages ( with the permission of their french officiers for thanking them for fighting!). As said before, allied troops killed a lot of german prisoners ( german soldiers who were surrendering ) after the surrendering in Tunisia. Also italian army committed crimes against Libyan and Abyssinian populations and in occupied Jugoslavia...So during a war every troops ,as it has been said commits war crimes. No doubt, among the allies, the russians are surely the ones who committed the most atrocities! In all east europe and occupied Germany...Even against the people in " delivered counties".

 

[uksubs]

I always worry when I read discussions about the Holocaust that inevitably include the observation that 'we did bad things as well'. It is as though we cannot shake our desire to be fair long enough to recognise evil as evil. It leaves us with a world view in which there is no room for good and instead merely end up with different degrees of bad. It is not enough to say 'he who is without sin cast the first stone' because it leaves us morally impotent. We can still confront evil as flawed human beings. A Dresden does not explain, let alone excuse, an Auschwitz.

Think you make a very good point Jack

 

[uksubs]

I have an interesting read for you uksubs.

Pick up Imperial Reckoning by Caroline Elkins.

Here is the basics of it As part of the Allied forces, thousands of Kenyans fought alongside the British in World War II. But just a few years after the defeat of Hitler, the British colonial government detained nearly the entire population of Kenya's largest ethnic minority, the Kikuyu-some one and a half million people.

The compelling story of the system of prisons and work camps where thousands met their deaths has remained largely untold-the victim of a determined effort by the British to destroy all official records of their attempts to stop the Mau Mau uprising, the Kikuyu people's ultimately successful bid for Kenyan independence.

Caroline Elkins, an assistant professor of history at Harvard University, spent a decade in London, Nairobi, and the Kenyan countryside interviewing hundreds of Kikuyu men and women who survived the British camps, as well as the British and African loyalists who detained them.

I suppose since this was not in Munchen...and no tour guide to point it out............no one new about it in the UK.

When you finish the book let us comment on it.

Ludwig

Don't you think you should reply to my comment first ? I know what Britain done in are long history thanks and not saying we're whiter than white and only pointing out my personal opinion of going to concention camps in Germany and Eastern Europe

 

[Rob]

I always worry when I read discussions about the Holocaust that inevitably include the observation that 'we did bad things as well'. It is as though we cannot shake our desire to be fair long enough to recognise evil as evil. It leaves us with a world view in which there is no room for good and instead merely end up with different degrees of bad. It is not enough to say 'he who is without sin cast the first stone' because it leaves us morally impotent. We can still confront evil as flawed human beings. A Dresden does not explain, let alone excuse, an Auschwitz.

Excellent post, spot on. We also need to remember when talking of WW2 just which country initiated possibly the worst event in human history, the vile racist agenda behind it and its ultimate goal of the domination of countries and untold millions of people who did not happen to want to live under the German ideal. I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, and terrible as it was, but the bombing of Dresden was one event in the eradication of the Nazi/German plague that was infecting Europe and no doubt had plans to spread. We can argue all day about Dresden but the people involved at the time were doing what they had to do to plug the Nazi sewage burst across Europe, I also don't think a single person on this forum thinks if Hitler had had such air power he would not have done the same thing, this after all was the person who sanctioned the V1 and V2's that were designed to totally kill at random thousands of our citizens.

...or excuse a Kenyan Gulag...very good.

Pick up Imperial Reckoning by Caroline Elkins.

As part of the Allied forces, thousands of Kenyans fought alongside the British in World War II. But just a few years after the defeat of Hitler, the British colonial government detained nearly the entire population of Kenya's largest ethnic minority, the Kikuyu-some one and a half million people.

The compelling story of the system of prisons and work camps where thousands met their deaths has remained largely untold-the victim of a determined effort by the British to destroy all official records of their attempts to stop the Mau Mau uprising, the Kikuyu people's ultimately successful bid for Kenyan independence.

Caroline Elkins, an assistant professor of history at Harvard University, spent a decade in London, Nairobi, and the Kenyan countryside interviewing hundreds of Kikuyu men and women who survived the British camps, as well as the British and African loyalists who detained them.

This was a few years after WWII. Thought we would have learned some lessons there.

The point I am making is let us look at all areas of murder and genocide.

This is a good point Ludwig. However I don't think we can compare the disgusting and shameful events in Kenya to the attempt by the Nazi's to remove the Jewish race as a whole from the face of the earth, invade countries that only wanted to live in peace and force German ideals down the throats of millions of happy people across Europe. Neil has raised a point that we've talked about in that how many ordinary Germans knew about the deaths of six million people in the camps and what if anything could they have done about if they had, its a hard question for ordinary Germans I know, but its valid.


Rob

 

[waynepoo]

Excellent post, spot on. We also need to remember when talking of WW2 just which country initiated possibly the worst event in human history, the vile racist agenda behind it and its ultimate goal of the domination of countries and untold millions of people who did not happen to want to live under the German ideal. I'm sorry if this offends and terrible as it was, but the bombing of Dresden was one event in the eradication of the Nazi/German plague that was infecting Europe and no doubt had plans to spread. We can argue all day about Dresden but the people involved at the time were doing what they had to do to plug the Nazi sewage burst across Europe, I also don't think a single person on this forum thinks if Hitler had such air power he would not have done the same thing, this after all was the person who sanctioned the V1 and V2's that were designed to totally kill at random thousands of our citizens.



Rob

Rob,
I agree 100% with your words.
Wayne.

 

[fierytheangelsfell]

We all often hear of atrocities carried out by Germans in WW2, they are mostly well documentated. However you rarely hear of atrocities carried out by the allies. For many years it has been suggested that British and American airborne forces did not take prisoners early on the morning of 6th June 1944 although again not much is documentated or even mentioned. In a docu just the other day it suggested that the Americans captured one hundred and thirty Germans on Omaha beach and yet only sixty made it back to the prisoner collection point. It obviously let you use your imagination as to what happened to to them. With all docus' you have to keep an open mind, but my question is does anyone know of any documentation or description of the killing of German prisoners by allied troops on D day? Personally I think common sense says it did of course happen but just wondered if there are any accounts or witness statements?

Rob

See William I Hitchcock, 'The Bitter Road to Freedom: A New History of the Liberation of Europe' (2008): rape, pillage and murder on Western and Easter fronts. Perhaps worst in the East. Don't recall reading anything on the execution of prisoners though. Grim reading.

 

[Jack]

Excellent post, spot on. We also need to remember when talking of WW2 just which country initiated possibly the worst event in human history, the vile racist agenda behind it and its ultimate goal of the domination of countries and untold millions of people who did not happen to want to live under the German ideal. I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, and terrible as it was, but the bombing of Dresden was one event in the eradication of the Nazi/German plague that was infecting Europe and no doubt had plans to spread. We can argue all day about Dresden but the people involved at the time were doing what they had to do to plug the Nazi sewage burst across Europe, I also don't think a single person on this forum thinks if Hitler had had such air power he would not have done the same thing, this after all was the person who sanctioned the V1 and V2's that were designed to totally kill at random thousands of our citizens.


Rob

Are you getting a dollar per metaphor? You'd be two dollars up for this post alone - a plague and sewage! Quite Churchillian!

Good post too by the way!

Jack

 

[Poppo]

Excellent post, spot on. We also need to remember when talking of WW2 just which country initiated possibly the worst event in human history, the vile racist agenda behind it and its ultimate goal of the domination of countries and untold millions of people who did not happen to want to live under the German ideal. I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, and terrible as it was, but the bombing of Dresden was one event in the eradication of the Nazi/German plague that was infecting Europe and no doubt had plans to spread. We can argue all day about Dresden but the people involved at the time were doing what they had to do to plug the Nazi sewage burst across Europe, I also don't think a single person on this forum thinks if Hitler had had such air power he would not have done the same thing, this after all was the person who sanctioned the V1 and V2's that were designed to totally kill at random thousands of our citizens.


[/COLOR]

This is a good point Ludwig. However I don't think we can compare the disgusting and shameful events in Kenya to the attempt by the Nazi's to remove the Jewish race as a whole from the face of the earth, invade countries that only wanted to live in peace and force German ideals down the throats of millions of happy people across Europe. Neil has raised a point that we've talked about in that how many ordinary Germans knew about the deaths of six million people in the camps and what if anything could they have done about if they had, its a hard question for ordinary Germans I know, but its valid.


Rob

I am sorry Rob, but the bombing of Dresden was not "eradication of the Nazi/German plague".....It was only a " revenge"...exactly like killing an enemy who is surrendering....I remind you that at the time of Dresden bombing, Germany was already defeated....In Dresden were no military targets, but only children, old people...This bombing at the end of the war was just a blind revenge, a war crime against civilians who were burned alive with napalm. Then you said :Hitler would have done the same thing on the british cities. Of course he would have done it! He was a sick criminal.

 

[uksubs]

I am sorry Rob, but the bombing of Dresden was not "eradication of the Nazi/German plague".....It was only a " revenge"...exactly like killing an enemy who is surrendering....I remind you that at the time of Dresden bombing, Germany was already defeated....In Dresden were no military targets, but only children, old people...This bombing at the end of the war was just a blind revenge, a war crime against civilians who were burned alive with napalm. Then you said :Hitler would have done the same thing on the british cities. Of course he would have done it! He was a sick criminal.

Thing is Dresdon was a military target as it was the main train hub to the east, made parts for V.2 and submarine parts for a start

 

[Poppo]

Thing is Dresdon was a military target as it was the main train hub to the east, made parts for V.2 and submarine parts for a start

well, let' s say it was....But why dropping several thousands tons of bombs, several waves of attacking on civil buildings? The will was to cancel Dresden from the maps.....And it was made so....Industrial structures are in subburbs, there can be mistakes of course....but all Dresden was totally destroyed. And in Berlin and several other german cities it was made the same. I think all historians agree about the fact that the will of cancelling german cities was a plan...And not only to destroy the industries...I am sorry, but the strategy was exactly the same of Hitler' s.

 

[Peter Reuss]

Gents...tread carefully here. We've had a very respectful conversation to this point.

 

[Rob]

well, let' s say it was....But why dropping several thousands tons of bombs, several waves of attacking on civil buildings? The will was to cancel Dresden from the maps.....And it was made so....Industrial structures are in subburbs, there can be mistakes of course....but all Dresden was totally destroyed. And in Berlin and several other german cities it was made the same. I think all historians agree about the fact that the will of cancelling german cities was a plan...And not only to destroy the industries...I am sorry, but the strategy was exactly the same of Hitler' s.

Again I have to say, Germany was the architect of its own suffering. Do you only think it was only a military decision to flatten those cities. Do you not think that the people of Great Britain who had been subject to the Blitz on many cities for months and costing thousands of lives as a result of Germany's desire to occupy Europe did not want revenge, for their children , for their wives, their husbands and their friends? I get so sick of people liking our actions to that of the detestable Nazi's and all their supporters . If it was not for German desire to rule over other people WE would not have bombed anyone. When the ' ordinary' people of Germany were worshipping Hitler and singing 'Bombs on England ', they showed no pity, they showed no remorse for our dead , all they cared for was expanding the Nazi/German Reich whatever it cost in human misery world wide. Well then they got the mother of all bombing returned on them and all of a sudden because we did it bigger than the Germans did we are the bad guys or we were all as bad as each other. Rubbish, Germany made us fight for our freedom to live how we please and not under the heel of Nazi automatons , we can feel sorry for all those who died in bombing of cities but lets just remember the instigators of this war shall we.

Rob

 

[Mitch]

Dresden was indeed a military target it was a hub for rail transports and, an important one at that. If a city has one strategic advantage to your enemy you take it down or, run the risk of allowing your troops to be killed later on down the line or, indeed lose a battle or a war. Dresden is used for those who wish to call it a war crime purely because of when it was attacked i.e. late in the war. I am also surprised that bomber command gets so much stick for some of these raids as we attacked at night but, follow up raids occured by the US during the next days. It cannot be a crime for BC to attack but, not the USAAF. However, we know when the war ended now, but, at that time did anyone have a clear idea when it was going to end? don't really think so. Its as easy to say that it could have dragged on for several more months. I do think Rob is right had Hitler had the means London and many other cities would be in far worse a state than some german cities.

I am not quite sure about sick criminals and evil acts. these are emotional words that really don't explain anything. They are words we have come to use when we cannot understand something like the holocaust or some of the acts we are talking about. Was Hitler sick mentally? I am not sure I have not read any evaluations of his mental state that would prove such a hypothesis. He certainly seemed to lose grip of reality at the wars end but, that does not equate to being mentally sick.

We do a similar thing today with murderes etc we try to make people have pointy horns and castigate them as beasts and unatural and somehow different to us. why? simply to be able to accomodate more easily what they have done.

Was Trueman sick when he ordered the second bomb to be dropped on Nagasaki when he knew the devastation and casualty rates the first had caused? was Eisenhower sick when he de-classified german POW's to DEF's? I am always struck by the words of Hoess when he was interviwed by interrogators and doctors when he stated ''does a rat catcher think its wrong to kill rats?'' Historical context, socio economic and political climates of the time are fundamentally important to understanding why events happened even if we don't like the answers.

I think its easy to see (whether thats palatable for some) how Germany ended up gassing millions of people and removing what they saw as untermensch across europe without resorting to the fact that they were sick or, somehow evil. If you look at the historical context of the times the rather widespread hatred and suspicion of the jewish population in those times even outside of germany and, the beliefs (rightly or wrongly) that at the heart of germany and her woes, was this race, and the steps they took to exclude them from their way of life, it is a logical assumption to see where it would end.

The germans were brought up through that 12 year period and, long before to be cynical of the jewish community and, once you start doing that with a specific race, its easy to see how it spirals out of control. Look at how many germans agreed with the exclusion of the jews from everyday german life they cannot all be sick. There were some who voiced where it would end even then.

Jack mentioned seeing something as evil even if we are morally flawed I don't know what posts it was aimed at but, its essential for me, if we are discussing history that we address both sides of the story. Its taken a long time for historians to begin to accept that the allied side in some of its acts and decisions were wrong and, ceratainly morally flawed at minimum. Thats not re-writing history just writing it correctly
Mitch

 

[Poppo]

Dresden was indeed a military target it was a hub for rail transports and, an important one at that. If a city has one strategic advantage to your enemy you take it down or, run the risk of allowing your troops to be killed later on down the line or, indeed lose a battle or a war. Dresden is used for those who wish to call it a war crime purely because of when it was attacked i.e. late in the war. I am also surprised that bomber command gets so much stick for some of these raids as we attacked at night but, follow up raids occured by the US during the next days. It cannot be a crime for BC to attack but, not the USAAF. However, we know when the war ended now, but, at that time did anyone have a clear idea when it was going to end? don't really think so. Its as easy to say that it could have dragged on for several more months. I do think Rob is right had Hitler had the means London and many other cities would be in far worse a state than some german cities.

I am not quite sure about sick criminals and evil acts. these are emotional words that really don't explain anything. They are words we have come to use when we cannot understand something like the holocaust or some of the acts we are talking about. Was Hitler sick mentally? I am not sure I have not read any evaluations of his mental state that would prove such a hypothesis. He certainly seemed to lose grip of reality at the wars end but, that does not equate to being mentally sick.

We do a similar thing today with murderes etc we try to make people have pointy horns and castigate them as beasts and unatural and somehow different to us. why? simply to be able to accomodate more easily what they have done.

Was Trueman sick when he ordered the second bomb to be dropped on Nagasaki when he knew the devastation and casualty rates the first had caused? was Eisenhower sick when he de-classified german POW's to DEF's? I am always struck by the words of Hoess when he was interviwed by interrogators and doctors when he stated ''does a rat catcher think its wrong to kill rats?'' Historical context, socio economic and political climates of the time are fundamentally important to understanding why events happened even if we don't like the answers.

I think its easy to see (whether thats palatable for some) how Germany ended up gassing millions of people and removing what they saw as untermensch across europe without resorting to the fact that they were sick or, somehow evil. If you look at the historical context of the times the rather widespread hatred and suspicion of the jewish population in those times even outside of germany and, the beliefs (rightly or wrongly) that at the heart of germany and her woes, was this race, and the steps they took to exclude them from their way of life, it is a logical assumption to see where it would end.

The germans were brought up through that 12 year period and, long before to be cynical of the jewish community and, once you start doing that with a specific race, its easy to see how it spirals out of control. Look at how many germans agreed with the exclusion of the jews from everyday german life they cannot all be sick. There were some who voiced where it would end even then.

Jack mentioned seeing something as evil even if we are morally flawed I don't know what posts it was aimed at but, its essential for me, if we are discussing history that we address both sides of the story. Its taken a long time for historians to begin to accept that the allied side in some of its acts and decisions were wrong and, ceratainly morally flawed at minimum. Thats not re-writing history just writing it correctly
Mitch

I am not saying that the germans or Hitler were right...of course they were wrong . You say that the bombing of Dresden was a justyfied military act, well, tell me which historians support your thesis..If there are , there must be very few as England regreted those acts...You should read Antony Beehvor to see how an historian can be objective....I am not very interested in politic points of views, or " politically correctness" which is the worst enemy for hitorycal truth...

 

[Rob]

Historians may well have regretted it, but I would bet there were not that many civilians of the time who did, I know this because I've had the pleasure of talking to many of them in the past.

Rob

 

[Mitch]

Poppo...

You are quite right Harris was wanting to bomb germany into submission and, he thought, advocated and had the means to try and do this.

I am not sure if the motives behind were exactly the same Harris was wanting to win a war against an enemy that had invaded other countries that we were allied to causing us to declare war on them. I think when you take the gloves off in a world war that was classified readily and quickly by the germans as total war then, civillians always will bear the brunt. Your argument rest with two wrongs don't make a right and, while I agree with you to a certain extent germany was still a potent enemy even at that late stage in the war.

Where does one draw the line with carpet bombing? we know from the spirit and endurance of the brits in the blitz that bombing does not break a population but, Harris and many others at that time had to do something to show we were taking the fight to the enemy. I know that masses of forces both ground and in the air were restricted from fighting on fronts because of the air war and, the appalling loss of life for the air crews would probably have been doubled or more had germans had this available resources at the front. I think though you should remember that Hitler said there were no civillians in total war and, if thats good enough for him and the way they waged war on other then, surely, he could and nor could the german people expect anything less

As for Historians some say the bombing was wrong some don't many stay away from it. I have read Beevor's work and spoken many times with him but, again we are blinded by the fact that we address these events with hindsight that was not available to those taking the decisions. Its terrible that civillians died but, they did. Hitler and his command acted in the way they saw fit and we and the rest of the allies did the same. We can now with the freedom these people gave us crawl all over their actions and say 70 years later they were wrong but, tough decisions are made in war and we had tough men making them.

Does not make it right or wrong but, they are the ones fighting for their country. What is good is that we are debating these issues and accepting each others comments in the right spirit
Mitch

well, let' s say it was....But why dropping several thousands tons of bombs, several waves of attacking on civil buildings? The will was to cancel Dresden from the maps.....And it was made so....Industrial structures are in subburbs, there can be mistakes of course....but all Dresden was totally destroyed. And in Berlin and several other german cities it was made the same. I think all historians agree about the fact that the will of cancelling german cities was a plan...And not only to destroy the industries...I am sorry, but the strategy was exactly the same of Hitler' s.

 

[Rob]

Poppo...

You are quite right Harris was wanting to bomb germany into submission and, he thought, advocated and had the means to try and do this.

I am not sure if the motives behind were exactly the same Harris was wanting to win a war against an enemy that had invaded other countries that we were allied to causing us to declare war on them. I think when you take the gloves off in a world war that was classified readily and quickly by the germans as total war then, civillians always will bear the brunt. Your argument rest with two wrongs don't make a right and, while I agree with you to a certain extent germany was still a potent enemy even at that late stage in the war.

Where does one draw the line with carpet bombing? we know from the spirit and endurance of the brits in the blitz that bombing does not break a population but, Harris and many others at that time had to do something to show we were taking the fight to the enemy. I know that masses of forces both ground and in the air were restricted from fighting on fronts because of the air war and, the appalling loss of life for the air crews would probably have been doubled or more had germans had this available resources at the front. I think though you should remember that Hitler said there were no civillians in total war and, if thats good enough for him and the way they waged war on other then, surely, he could and nor could the german people expect anything less
Mitch

This is very true indeed, the people needed to know they had not been through the Blitz for nothing.

Rob

 

[Mitch]

Bloody interesting thread. Everything from Colonial brit acts, to POW's, to the political era of nazi germany and the holocaust to carpet bombing and, not a cross word.
Mitch