Das Boot, Stalingrad and ??? (1 Viewer)

larso

Sergeant Major
Joined
May 2, 2008
Messages
1,566
Das Boot and Stalingrad were produced by the same people. I'm not sure as to what other degree the two films are connected, other than being anti-war films from a German perspective but in this age of the trilogy, I was wondering what would a third film explore about Germany's war?
I've got a few ideas which I'm still thinking through but I thought I'd ask the forum members what would be a suitable topic/theatre to complete the 'set'?
 
Das Boot and Stalingrad were produced by the same people. I'm not sure as to what other degree the two films are connected, other than being anti-war films from a German perspective but in this age of the trilogy, I was wondering what would a third film explore about Germany's war?
I've got a few ideas which I'm still thinking through but I thought I'd ask the forum members what would be a suitable topic/theatre to complete the 'set'?

IMO the film Der Untergang aka Downfall (with an incredible and outstanding performance from Bruno Ganz) together with your two previously mentioned productions already completes an almost perfect trilogy of German anti-war films.
 
Assuming that it would not be another Eastern Front setting and that the desert might not have the punch, perhaps something about the civilian experience of war. In particular, the Allied bombing campaign in 1944/45 and the fall of Berlin. The Russian treatment of civilians, however, would make for some pretty confronting viewing. It would be pretty political though,given that it might be seen as less anti war and more 'we all did terrible things'.
 
Interesting. My first thoughts were towards something on the Western front but looking at the civilian experience would be very apt. The bombing would be a key part but it would also allow things like food shortages, treatment of the Jews, slave labour, the terror state, casualty lists/maimed soldiers and surely heaps more? Perhaps Luftwaffe fighter pilots could feature there too? Almost, the other side of Memphis Belle. Great idea Jack!

I hadn't been thinking of Downfall but it is a very good film (parodies of THAT scene are Legion!) and is absolutely worth its place in any film list examing the German situation.
 
Agreed on the first two - as already stated. Schindler's List was a hugely powerful film for me - which really explored how at least one man tried to save many people from dreadful persecution and horrific death. That would complete my trilogy.

I did read the book first though (it was called Schindlers Ark then), by Thomas Keneally - well before the film was made - and that always helps - at least, for me. Liam Neeson did a fabulous job playing Oskar in the movie too - and really brought the book to life.

I had also visited Auschwitz - a couple of years earlier - and recall vividly how the things I saw there - were replayed for me, on screen. Add up those life experiences - and the movie was very powerful, and again, for me, just unforgetable jb
 
Last edited:
I had a bit of trouble following what was going on with those - do you have some more details Wayne?
 
My sister's father in law grew up in Holland during the war. His opinion is the Book Thief does an amazing job of reflecting his experience as a civilian child growing up in occupied Europe (even though it is set in Germany.)

I doubt a trilogy could cover the vast experiences in the war.

I think we are already to a 6 part mini-series (or 9 with Generation War/Unsere Mutter,Unsere Vater.)
 
When I was bouncing the idea around today, and based on the connection with the two films I started with, I thought what else should/could be covered with the Eastern Front and the Battle of the Atlantic done? It seems that with those films, there was an intention to tell the story of the ordinary soldier/sailor caught up in a war they had limited interest in. I thought a next step could be about soldiers who did have an interest in it - the SS.

Hundreds of thousands of German men identified with the Nazi cause to a high degree and expressed it by volunteering for the SS. Their conviction lead them to do exceptional things on the battlefield but also horrendous things adjacent to it. I wondered whether looking at a group in 1st or 2nd SS PZ in Normandy might fit. In terms of viewing interest, it was the key battle of the Western Front - Germany's only chance to turn the war situation to its advantage. There's heaps of tank action, epic battles and ultimately the almost complete destruction of the real believers in the Nazi cause.

While both units had been rebuilt several times, it seems that special efforts were made to have them as much as possible at their peak - both in equipment and ideologically committed members. I think that the showcasing of this aspect - controversial as it would be - is relevant and in anycase it is followed by their defeat. There were also a number of atrocities committed that show their appalling brutality too. Maybe 12SS is a better option again? The very young, led by the most fanatical of officers. It almost has a 'The Bridge' element to it?
Normandy also offers a different look to the snow of Stalingrad.

I've got a few more thoughts but it's bedtime here!
 
There is a 2001 film called 'Conspiracy' about the 1942 Wannsee Conference. It starred Ken Branagh as Heydrich, Stan Tucci as Eichmann, and Coiln Firth as Dr. Stuckart. There are many other name actors as well. It is a scary film and is fascinating on the human level with regards to these men's thought process' about the Jewish question. It is well written and worth watching. It tells the side of holocaust that is generally hidden (how the whole thing was decided), and as I said, is just plain scary in the attitudes and thinking exhibited. -- Al
 
When I was bouncing the idea around today, and based on the connection with the two films I started with, I thought what else should/could be covered with the Eastern Front and the Battle of the Atlantic done? It seems that with those films, there was an intention to tell the story of the ordinary soldier/sailor caught up in a war they had limited interest in. I thought a next step could be about soldiers who did have an interest in it - the SS.

Hundreds of thousands of German men identified with the Nazi cause to a high degree and expressed it by volunteering for the SS. Their conviction lead them to do exceptional things on the battlefield but also horrendous things adjacent to it. I wondered whether looking at a group in 1st or 2nd SS PZ in Normandy might fit. In terms of viewing interest, it was the key battle of the Western Front - Germany's only chance to turn the war situation to its advantage. There's heaps of tank action, epic battles and ultimately the almost complete destruction of the real believers in the Nazi cause.

While both units had been rebuilt several times, it seems that special efforts were made to have them as much as possible at their peak - both in equipment and ideologically committed members. I think that the showcasing of this aspect - controversial as it would be - is relevant and in anycase it is followed by their defeat. There were also a number of atrocities committed that show their appalling brutality too. Maybe 12SS is a better option again? The very young, led by the most fanatical of officers. It almost has a 'The Bridge' element to it?
Normandy also offers a different look to the snow of Stalingrad.

I've got a few more thoughts but it's bedtime here!

I wonder if doing a version of Black Edelweiss would be less controversial? It was the 6th SS Mountain Division, and many joined for the patriotic and ultra-nationalistic motives of many of the SS volunteers. It was also originally written right after the war in 1947.
 
Thanks Brad - your post reminded me that I had 'Black Edelwiese' and I started reading it last weekend. I see what you meant too. The author and his neighbour had, it has to be said ideals, that would be commendable away from the Nazi context. Joint European efforts to defy a threat or make progress is something we've seen in NATO and other events in the last decades. Bizarre that the SS offered this or at least appeared to do so. and ironic because the Nazies created the conditions that made it necessary.

The 6th SS appears to be free of war crimes too (the one on Wiki seems unproven/unlikely). Fighting in Finland and Germany generally kept them away from hostile civilians I suppose. They also seem to have done well with the ethnic Germans they received from Romania. The division seems to have conducted itself as well as it could in the circumstances. I recall though, a claim in one of my memoirs by a US soldier who fought them, that 6th SS was rumoured to have captured a US hospital, killed the wounded and raped the nurses. There's no evidence of this, in fact it seems they were actually quite gallant during the incident. Unfortuneatly, it seems the rumour was widely believed by frontline US troops and I'm sure they undertook reprisals, much as other US troops did following Malmedy in the Ardennes. War is hell....
 
Growing up in Germany in the post-war years, it was mandatory at school to watch an outstanding German anti-war movie called "The Bridge" ("Die Bruecke"). I was shocked to see recently it is offered on iTunes. Highly recommended although I have not watched it for several years.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Die_Brücke_(film)

"Die Brücke (The Bridge) is a 1959 West German film directed by Austrian filmmaker Bernhard Wicki. It is based on the eponymous 1958 novel by journalist and writer Gregor Dorfmeister (published under the pseudonym Manfred Gregor). The story was based on an actual event, upon the personal report of a surviving veteran who in his own youth experienced a similar situation in World War II."
 
I've finally finished Black Edelweiss and it was very interesting. I've posted my Amazon review below for those of you with no lives to read.

For those of you who've read the book, this link is about the final action in the book from the American point of view. It gives a lot more detail and also says that things got pretty vicious....

http://www.ghqmodels.com/newsletters/marapr2000.pdf

Review - 'Black Edelweiss'

Voss, apparently a pseudonym, joins the SS for idealistic reasons. He is young, partly influenced by role models but he is also taken with the idea of European brotherhood in the face of Communism. He undergoes mountain warfare training and is posted to the 6th SS Mountain Division ‘Nord’ in Finland. He experiences combat, the extreme weather and the long retreat to Norway. Following this he is in action on the Western Front before being captured by the Americans in 1945. He wrote his memoir up while he was in captivity.

There is quite a bit on Voss’s youth and his fascinating family. They were quite privileged but also saw themselves as obliged to serve Germany in the conflict. There are a range of political attitudes in the family, though mostly they have no particular attachment to Hitler. The mountain training phase is quite interesting. They are pushed hard but being young and fit helps. There is also the elite nature of their work and charismatic leaders. Voss arrives at the Finnish front late in 1943 and assigned to the 3rd Battalion, 11th SS Mountain Regt.

The front is fairly static when Voss arrives. There are though constant probes and mortar and artillery attacks. Voss recounts the first instance of these in quite some detail, complete with conversations with comrades. There is also a clear account of the terrain, trench and living quarters. A major patrol is also recounted in depth, so this is a very good look at the work of a mountain or ski soldier. There follows a major action at Sennozero Lake, during a major Soviet offensive in July 44. Voss commands a MG section and there is a lot done trying to stem the attack and break through to cut-off German troops. I think the sense of confusion in the forests and the extreme exertion required is conveyed well. Then there is the long retreat, which sadly for the Germans sees them obliged to engage their erstwhile Allies, the Finns. This whole episode is very little known, so this was all quite informative.

After arriving back in Germany, the 6th SS Division is committed to fighting the Americans. The extent of American artillery fire astonishes the Germans. Voss’s major action is at Reipertswiller, during the Nordwind offensive in January 45. They entrap and capture a battalion of the US 157th Regt and Voss, again commanding a MG section, writes quite clearly on his part in this. His final action is the attack on Lampaden in March. The battalion conducts a night march but is not able to deploy itself properly. US tanks then overwhelm Voss’s section and he is captured. This action was against the 3/302nd of the US 94th Division. Interestingly, an article by Edward Morris (2000) claims the 6th SS shot American prisoners in this action. There is very little about war crimes by the 6th SS, so this may have just been ‘run-of-the-mill’ activity that both sides engaged in, particularly in the Bulge. In any case, Voss is probably lucky to have survived.

This though points to the notoriety of the SS. While separate to the odious Concentration camp branch, the Waffen SS was involved in many atrocities, both on and off the battlefield. Voss is very lucky I think to have been posted to the 6th Division, which spent the great bulk of its career on friendly soil. It was not therefore used to suppress partisans or punish foreign populations. Even its brief phase in action against the Finns, following that countries switching sides, was as limited as both nations could manage. Voss’s service in the SS though is his reason for writing. Having volunteered and served in an organisation, subsequently deemed to be criminal, Voss is conflicted. He sees his own motives and those of his comrades as honourable. The horrors of the Death Camps and other SS crimes were indisputable but he nevertheless feels his reasons need to be stated. He is also partly speaking on behalf of his dead comrades. It is, I think, a perspective worth hearing and it probably represents that held by a sizeable number of SS and Wehrmacht volunteers. It is also the case, that there are many memoirs by Allied troops who fought the SS and had nothing but contempt and loathing for them.

With that in mind, this is a very interesting book. Voss writes a lot about his comrades and their discussions. His experiences are fairly unique and his writing conveys things clearly. There is quite a bit of combat action and sufficient specifics to make it hit home. His reflections on his sacrifices and service in a very controversial organisation are a fascinating point of view, though probably not best taken in isolation. Overall - Highly recommended.
 
Last edited:
More on the 6th SS. I was reading a Wiki page on Heinze Heuer, who destroyed 13 Soviet tanks (using hand-held weapons) in the battle of Berlin. He was a policeman and he continued in this role after the war -

As a police investigator in 1952, Heuer attempted to establish the circumstances of the death of his brother-in-law, who had been captured while fighting alongside the 6th SS Mountain Division Nord at Leisenwald and Waldensberg near Wächtersbach. Along with others, he had apparently been shot in the head by U.S. Army soldiers. His inquiries were not fruitful, but the German War Graves Commission did conduct an exhumation of a mass grave in the area in 1961, and re-interred 34 bodies in the nearby war cemetery, 23 of which had clearly been shot in the head. Heuer returned to the area during this investigation and tried to push for an inquiry into the killings, but was unsuccessful.[3] He died on 6 January 2002.
 
Growing up in Germany in the post-war years, it was mandatory at school to watch an outstanding German anti-war movie called "The Bridge" ("Die Bruecke"). I was shocked to see recently it is offered on iTunes. Highly recommended although I have not watched it for several years.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Die_Brücke_(film)

"Die Brücke (The Bridge) is a 1959 West German film directed by Austrian filmmaker Bernhard Wicki. It is based on the eponymous 1958 novel by journalist and writer Gregor Dorfmeister (published under the pseudonym Manfred Gregor). The story was based on an actual event, upon the personal report of a surviving veteran who in his own youth experienced a similar situation in World War II."

Great film
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top