Difference in Detail in King Country (1 Viewer)

[SPICK0001]

I am new to collecting these pieces and have a question. There seems to be a good deal of difference in detail of pieces released by King and Country prior to 2000. What happened. The pieces I have been collecting are incredible in detail. Some of the retired pieces I have looked at look almost silly in appearance. Just curious if some breakthrough in design or technology enabled this, in my opinion, incredible difference.

 

[Harrytheheid]

Spick,
As another relative newcomer to the hobby, I completely agree. That's why I'm not much interested in the real old stuff. Maybe Louis Badolato's forthcoming K&C book will shed some light on why the newer figures are so much better, (IMO, I'm aware that some collectors love the older stuff), I can't believe there was some sudden improvement rather than a steady increase in quality.

 

[Vezzolf]

I am new to collecting these pieces and have a question. There seems to be a good deal of difference in detail of pieces released by King and Country prior to 2000. What happened. The pieces I have been collecting are incredible in detail. Some of the retired pieces I have looked at look almost silly in appearance. Just curious if some breakthrough in design or technology enabled this, in my opinion, incredible difference.

The detail on most newer K/C products is definitely improved and without the ridiculous price tags of "retired" pieces on secondary markets like e-bay etc.....I beleive that the best is yet to come from K/C ........This will definitely be beneficial to newcomers to the hobby.......Happy collecting Vezzolf

 

[OzDigger]

Competition is the main influence on improvement in most industries and as more manufacturers such as Honour Bound, New Model Army, Patriot, Figarti etc have started up I have noted the K & C product getting better.

Of course K & C have been making ongoing improvements before they had much "matt" competition but potential lost sales to competitors is always a good incentive for any business.

And I guess we have a few resident whingers such as my good self that continue to beat the drum for more detail and accuracy on figures and vehicles. And I've heard that sometimes people in high places actually listen to us

I think the earlier K & C figures with reduced detail appeal mainly to guys that started collecting K & C early and wish to complete their collection and others with plenty of money that want/need to play catch up. With an auction you only need two keen bidders to make the price skyrocket.

Personally I reckon collectors that throw good money at the older stuff need a reality check, but then I prefer model like detail to toy like nostalgia. But there are plenty of guys that prefer the toy like aspect of the earlier stuff to the realism of later issues, so to each their own as they say

 

[Currahee Chris]

Personally I reckon collectors that throw good money at the older stuff need a reality check, but then I prefer model like detail to toy like nostalgia. But there are plenty of guys that prefer the toy like aspect of the earlier stuff to the realism of later issues, so to each their own as they say

Couldn't have said it better myself. Here are a couple things I have noticed regarding these issues- I have some of the older DDay, Waffen SS and Yanks! sets. I remember when the Fallschirmjager sets were released and that was, in my mind the beginning of the newer tooling process- there was a marked difference between the Waffen and DDay sets versus what the FJ sets were looking like. Something happened at that time- I thnk it was late 2000, early 2001 but the figures started to loose the boyish faces and the slightly swollen arms and really became fantastic pieces.

As to the Ebay prices and all- I was forced to sell a lot of my older DDay and Waffen SS stuff at a wargaming show back in Summer 2004- I sold most of it for less than I paid. Prior to the show, of course, I checked Ebay and the traffic on these figures just wasn't there like it is today. Something has happened, from my observation since that time.

 

[Wraith]

Bang on the mark CC.
Around the DD30s and WS 30s onwards, it's almost like a complete different range / manufacturer. As for the original FJs, I still think they cut the mustard today in terms of pose, sculpting and facial detail. I'm trying to complete the run of FJs (FJ01 excepting - I'm not that desperate ) and I've 'backward' collected some of the US Airborne, on the grounds of, the more the merrier, but am trying to resist retired gap filling too much for the reasons outlined.

Simon

 

[Currahee Chris]

As for the original FJs, I still think they cut the mustard today in terms of pose, sculpting and facial detail. I'm trying to complete the run of FJs (FJ01 excepting - I'm not that desperate ) and I've 'backward' collected some of the US Airborne, on the grounds of, the more the merrier, but am trying to resist retired gap filling too much for the reasons outlined.

I couldn't agree more. In all of my infinite wisdom, I passed on the FJ sets!! I liked paying $75- $80 for a figure set- this new $85- $90 thing to me was stretching it!! So here I sit without any of them. Truthfully though, it might not have been a bad move on my part because I used the money I would have spent on them to buy the Landing craft, Pak 40, Tiger, Rommel Staff car, etc, etc. They didn't really fit where I was going collectively.

As an aside with the US Airborne- there was some sort of fascination with mohawks there in the early going- we had mohawks on radios, mohawks manning AT guns, mohawks getting the jump on the Germans ("Good Night Fritz- Conte). It was like there was some kind of US Airborne meets British 70's punk thing going on. Even so, I loved it and grabbed all the mohawk sets. Good to see that settled down a bit- I'd like to see my troopers keep there steel pots on.

STANDS ALONE!!
CC

 

[damian]

There was a steady improvement followed by a few paradigm shifts in K and C. The first 88 gun was very good as were the FJ's. It was however in 2002 that things really went from great to wow. I think the AK stuff, early war blitzkrieg and the first Naps lead the way. Since then things have obviously just got better and better. The new stuff is really quite different from some of teh old sest. I also would not pursue the old sets on ebay. I wopuld rather keep my money for new sets on the horizon
Regards
As always
Damian

 

[Louis Badolato]

There has always been a steady improvement in the quality of K&C, from the very first glossy Seaforth sets (knock-off's of Trophy) on. Andy went from copying other manufacturers to drawing his own ideas for other sculpters to execute (Frontline's owners used to sculpt for K&C, as did Ron Leh from Sommerset, briefly), to hiring a sculpter of his own until around WS16 (the second Panzer Crew set) to finally started hiring sculpters from a major art school in China and that's when the detail got exponentially better. At present there are something like 7+ master sculpters executing Andy's drawings, which is why the level of quality has gotten so incredibly high. Remember one thing, gentlemen, and that is, while I agree with Oz that competition and our *****ing and moaning have helped improve quality, there was no competition in matt WWII worth mentioning until Honour Bound and New Model Army opened their doors about two years ago (in my opinion Conte and Britains never approached K&C's level of quality), so most of the improvements, including the retention of the master sculpters who made the latest improvements happen, all occurred before there was any legitimate competition in 1:30 scale. Andy has always been committed to improving his product.

 

[aujj65]

From a non WW2 point of view, there appears to be a major improvement in sculpting and painting when the new matt Romans were released. Does this tie in with the above post from Louis?

Jeff

 

[panda1gen]

For my 2c worth, I first noticed the KC sets with the first airborne Arnhem group in the mid 1990's and couldn't believe them. I had never seen toy soldiers like them, but I stand back to all you seasoned collectors who may know otherwise, just my view from a solid barricade of ignorance.

I 'rediscovered' them in 2003 when I saw a display which included the new Wittman tiger and the 30ish ws/dd sets. I think the output from then on, which was terrific then - has simply gone to another level of 'wow'. But even two-four years ago, tommy patrol / winter troops, for example, were and still are brilliant, but the latest stuff still gets better.

I did collect some of the early stuff but have stopped for two years or so now due to prices and too much good stuff coming out.

 

[Eazy]

Likw a few others on here and looking at my own collection it seems to be the fallschirmjagers that signalled the start of real upsurge in quality. The new AK range aound 2002 also were really excellent.

 

[aujj65]

I still think it was the Romans!!!!

Jeff

 

[jazzeum]

As an observer of K and C's development, I would pick WS 16, the tank crew, as the beginning of the change. With that set, you could see how good it could be. Then, beginning with WS 21, the 88 Crew officer and observer, the faces started to get really good and just steadily improve after that.

In the DD sets, I herald the change with DD 21, where you saw the improvements pick up. Oddly enough, DD 30, the Priest set, exhibits some of the old sculpting whereas DD 31, D Day Minus One, a really great set, shows some marvelous sculpting. My guess on the DD 30 is that he just used some old sculpts he had lying around for this otherwise nice set.

 

[panda1gen]

As an observer of K and C's development, I would pick WS 16, the tank crew, as the beginning of the change. With that set, you could see how good it could be. Then, beginning with WS 21, the 88 Crew officer and observer, the faces started to get really good and just steadily improve after that.

In the DD sets, I herald the change with DD 21, where you saw the improvements pick up. Oddly enough, DD 30, the Priest set, exhibits some of the old sculpting whereas DD 31, D Day Minus One, a really great set, shows some marvelous sculpting. My guess on the DD 30 is that he just used some old sculpts he had lying around for this otherwise nice set.

I thought the Priest was terrific at the time, but compare it now with say the hummel.....

 

[kilted vampire]

The faces on the drummer boys and the Vivandiere are so realistic. There are some new pieces that I will never part with.

 

[Peter Reuss]

Andy posted this on another thread:

Personally speaking I always identify two particular points when K&C made giant leaps forward in quality...

A) 1994/1995...

As stated previously I went to Chicago in 1994 and was “gobsmacked” by Frontline’s superb “Charge of The Light Brigade” series. I returned from that show both exhilarated and determined that K&C would develop and go down its own unique path in creating an entire series in an original way. That range was, of course, “ARNHEM’44” and it was the first MATT painted range created by any company in China or elsewhere.

B) The Second Turning Point 2000/01

K&C had realized for quite some time that we had to improve our sculpting. So, in 2000/01 we started to recruit our own sculpting team for a K&C studio in China itself. Up until that point we had used “freelance” sculptors in HK (among them Gerard and Howard of Frontline in K&C’s very early days).

Once we had our own boys (and girls) in place in China big improvements in quality began to be seen in K&C.

Now, we have six figure sculptors (with 2 more in training), two Vehicle Engineers (with 1 in training), 3 x Master Painters (plus seeking 1 more) all based in China itself. In Hong Kong we have a creative team of six led by me...this now includes Gordon’s Diorama workshop. All of us are involved in figure conception and design (but no sculpting)...graphic design (advertising, promotion material, packaging) and...Internet development.

In building up our infrastructure K&C have an admin staff of eight plus a warehouse/dispatch team of four. Our involvement with and in China is total...I am still totally amazed how some of our competitors who also produce in China rarely, if ever, visit their production facilities in the People’s Republic. Myself and our guys are in and out of China on a weekly (and sometimes) a daily basis!

Oh well such is life...

 

[Warbuff26]

I just received all the new Americans...Glider Troops etc. (They are great by the way) However, is anyone else a little put off at these being released as single figures? This might sound a bit nit-picky, and maybe I'm bucking to get in the next cartoon ....but why not a complete set of 4...or 2 sets of 3 or 1 set of 5?? Not only do you have to sit there unpacking each individual piece and the store all those little %$#& boxes but you also pay $100 for a set of 4 and not $89. Was there a suggestion to switch to individual soldiers that was such a great idea that prompted this change in marketing that I missed? Is this a new trend that will continue with future releases or will we be moving back to regular sets of 4? I don’t collect them at the moment but the FoB figures were also released as singles too were they not?

 

[OldCelt]

Right O' Peter!
I was visiting with Andy At one of the shows a few years back and mentioned the quality inprovement in some new prototypes. (Ithink at Chicago?) He said then he had found a great new sculptur for his team.
He has also said that he pays a bit more than the going scale for his top people, so they don't desert him. I"ve alwys known he has a hands on manager type.
These types of busness practices and his knack for feeling the market and his customer sense will probably mean we'll have a top notch continually improving product for a long while.
O.C.

 

[Currahee Chris]

However, is anyone else a little put off at these being released as single figures?

I am personally a HUGE fan of this move- I think I had made mention of it awhile ago with the Waffen SS guys coming in marching poses, standing saluting, etc. I think it offers a lot of flexibility to those of us who do dioramas. To me, having the "Sets of 2,4,5" etc really kind of makes us uniform collectors- I think it puts us in a position where we all have the same thing. The individual pieces give us more flexibility in adding or taking out what you do or don't want. There are a lot of the 4 man sets where I really only may want 3 of the figs but have to pick up that irksome 4th- the Lord Lovat group comes to mind immediately or the Beachmaster set.

True, it does become more expensive if you look at it from a 4 man group equation. However, that perception of "I spent less and got what I wanted" is more prevalent too- I used this to great effect a couple weeks agoI was able to pick up two troopers I wanted and only paid $50. I told my wife I got some toy soldiers AND had money left over to take her and the wee one's to Friendly's for dinner that night!! Win-win situation for me- new toy soldiers and wife not ready to clobber me.

STANDS ALONE!!
CC