Execution of Mussolini (2 Viewers)

[cantinetozzo]

Yes i agree with Combat, but i'm referring to an autopsy , i didn't mean he was not guilty , the fact is that the Colmmunist party was really powerful at the time , and was trying to stage a revolution in Italy so Mussolini in their view was tried by the "People" and not in a trial like the one at Nuremberg, quite a difference in their own view.For the death.. it's far from romantic, in any case,if you see from right or from left.On the possibility of a trial i can say that until 1938 there were no racial law, after that the Fascism experience was tied to the Nazism, the political opponents were sent to the "Confino" a sort of exile in some rural or mountain town and not killed like in Nazist Germany or Communist Russia.After the racial laws the jews were excluded from many type of works but substantially the fascism character was not anti semitic , (one of the many loves of Mussolini was Margherita Sarfatti a jew woman) and many jews were fascist.The persecutions began with the german occupation and for this Mussolini bear many faults, and for entering war with an army not ready for it, causing Italy much damage.For this he should have been tried.What about these surprises?

 

[cantinetozzo]

The fact is that Mussolini was not an ordinary dictator is showed by this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzeFHcbvyn0
Many thousands of people visit his tomb(!)every year (many are extreme right wing hooligans btw) and if you are italian you can't deny he made many good things before the alliance with Hitler (but Mussolini was a sort of mentor to Hitler too).He paid for this alliance but we can discuss on what options were left in 1940 (France was beaten , Great Britain was on the brink of the invasion) so he jumped on the winner's bandwagon.I think if he did not allied with Germany , Hitler could have invaded Italy at some moment, and certainly Mussolini ideas matched more with Hitler's than with those of the western democracy.I think definitely there was no chance of avoid the war like Franco did.

 

[Rob]

The fact is that Mussolini was not an ordinary dictator is showed by this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzeFHcbvyn0
Many thousands of people visit his tomb(!)every year (many are extreme right wing hooligans btw) and if you are italian you can't deny he made many good things before the alliance with Hitler (but Mussolini was a sort of mentor to Hitler too).He paid for this alliance but we can discuss on what options were left in 1940 (France was beaten , Great Britain was on the brink of the invasion) so he jumped on the winner's bandwagon.I think if he did not allied with Germany , Hitler could have invaded Italy at some moment, and certainly Mussolini ideas matched more with Hitler's than with those of the western democracy.I think definitely there was no chance of avoid the war like Franco did.

Yes i can imagine his position with France fallen and thinking Britain would be invaded next.There are so many 'what could have happened' in History arn't there.I also wonder as you say whether Hitler would have invaded Italy had Britain been occupied?.I wonder if Mussolini was more misguided and vain glorious than evil,i doubt we can put him in the same bracket as Hitler can we?.

Rob

 

[OzDigger]

I can't see much collector interest in Mussolini. Initially Mussolini was a mentor to Hitler but became an embarrassment when Germany had to send in the Afrika Korps when Italy failed in attempts to expand their possessions in Africa after seeing Germany's success in Poland and France. Hitler and Mussolini were both bad, Hitler of course being worse by the higher number of people he killed.

 

[Rob]

You can talk about who killed more people,but Hitler had a more evil intent didn't he?.I mean Mussolini is often seen as a strutting buffoon type of character, but does he compare for pure evil against Hitler and his regime,or for that matter Stalin.

Rob

 

[OzDigger]

You can talk about who killed more people,but Hitler had a more evil intent didn't he?.I mean Mussolini is often seen as a strutting buffoon type of character, but does he compare for pure evil against Hitler and his regime,or for that matter Stalin.

Rob

I don't believe that anyone could for sure say that Hitler was more evil than Mussolini in the early stages. However it seems that the more power that people gain, the greater the chance of megalomania, and of course the greater their opportunity for getting away with doing evil things.

If Mussolini gained as much power Hitler, or had the forces that Hitler commanded, then maybe he could have matched Hitler. However it's like arguing that a serial killer of 30 people is worse than a killer with 5 victims, they are both bad imo, other people will have a different opinion.

 

[Rob]

Yes good point,Jack the Ripper killed five women,but was probably more insane than Himmler.If thats not stretching the point!

Rob

 

[cantinetozzo]

Mussolini was certainly a dictator by the standard of today but strangely at the times it was esteemed by many of the European governants (look at what said Churchill of him), there was widespread consent in Italy for him,and he was a man of peace , save obviously for the Abyssinia war and Spain(but we can spend hours on these 2 wars) in '38 guaranteed for Austria...I think he was more complicate than purely evil (i don't believe in pure evil sorry), he was misguided and viewed himself like a "providence man",you say megalomania, it's true.The fact we had no great generals was a great problem and Mussolini should have not entered war knowing it ,neither the industries didn't collaborate with the government , FIAT for example didn't shift its production to war models in the period september '39 -may '40 , continuing to sell civilian types, and this is only an example of strategic unpreparedness.For all the other armaments..you can look at the models they are pretty to see but to fight in those "herrings tins" you must have great courage.

 

[OzDigger]

The term Evil is frequently linked with people like Hitler but initially like Mussolini he was a well liked and respected person by many. However he certainly had a major personality flaw which was that he lacked "empathy" for other people, seeing empathy as a sign of weakness rather than as a positive human emotion.

This lack of empathy is often seen in the personality of serious criminals, especially serial killers. The other major factor being either a brutal father or no father at all. The later is a very common scenario now as more and more children are raised by single young mothers that sometimes seem more interested in male company than their children. I'm not saying that single parent families are the root cause of our seemingly deteriorating society, but I suspect it doesn't help. Who wants the soapbox now

 

[Combat]

My guess on Andy's "surprise" would be a Mussolini or Ciano figure for the new Berghof. Or maybe a Mussolini staff car - let's say for his visit to Germany in 1937.

 

[Uthred]

The idea of making Mussolini's execution available as a set, seems a bit gruesome to some, K&C, however has had its share of beheaded subjects, and I don't care how gruesome Mussolini's execution was, a beheaded person is worst.

 

[Rob]

For me its not so much how gruesome it is, its more about the actual subject matter.Would i really want a set featuring Mussolini being executed?.And where would it fit in my collection?.I can fully understand how this may appeal to folks interested in Italy and Mussolini but i'd probably give this a miss.

Rob

 

[cantinetozzo]

My guess on Andy's "surprise" would be a Mussolini or Ciano figure for the new Berghof. Or maybe a Mussolini staff car - let's say for his visit to Germany in 1937.

I agree with your guess , i was thinking something similar.

 

[Rob]

I agree with your guess , i was thinking something similar.

Mussolini being rescued by FJ's would be cool.

Rob

 

[cantinetozzo]

Yes i agree with that too, it was the subject of a Dragon set (less Mussolini , i don't understand why) and it could be a great piece , a great operation by Skorzeny (he took the credit for it but the merit was of other officers and the pilot who took off with a Storch from a little piece of land ) on the Gran Sasso (Campo Imperatore).Few days ago the zone was hit by an earthquake that caused nearly 300 victims.

 

[Rob]

Yes a classic wartime operation,would be a great set.

Our thoughts are with all those suffering in Italy at the moment.

Rob

 

[cantinetozzo]

Thanks Rob

 

[Combat]

Yes i agree with that too, it was the subject of a Dragon set (less Mussolini , i don't understand why) and it could be a great piece , a great operation by Skorzeny (he took the credit for it but the merit was of other officers and the pilot who took off with a Storch from a little piece of land ) on the Gran Sasso (Campo Imperatore).Few days ago the zone was hit by an earthquake that caused nearly 300 victims.

I recall a lot of discussion of a Skorzeny set w/storch from KC a while back. It seems to have fizzled out. There was some indication of difficulties with the Storch production. Maybe that has been resolved and it is on the way.

 

[cantinetozzo]

If i recall there was something on the Collector regarding the projects dropped..maybe i'm wrong?The Storch could be a great Warbird (but at this moment all the warbirds are out of my budget!)

 

[Rob]

How about that famous photo of Hitler and Mussolini together hours after the bomb attempt on Hitlers life?.A set featuring the two meeting anywhere would be interesting.

Rob