Favorite/Best German Division in Normandy (1 Viewer)

[swalterh]

Which is your Favorite/Best German Division in Normandy?

2nd Panzer
9th Panzer
21st Panzer
116th Panzer
Panzer Lehr
1st SS Panzer
2nd SS Panzer
9th SS Panzer
10th SS Panzer
12th SS Panzer
17th SS Panzer
709th ID
352nd ID
716th ID
91st ID
243rd ID
711th ID
326th ID
343rd ID
2nd Fallschirmjager

 

[Mitch]

What a strange question replicated two other times elsewhere???? Unless you are a veteran who served in one of these divisions or, had family in one allowing some type of connection how can you have a favourite??? Also,even only Normandy


Mitch

 

[The Military Workshop]

Mitch,
If you think this poll is difficult wait until we get to the best ships and fighter and bomber squadrons of Commonwealth/Brits, Germans and USA.
Hopefully the favourite Aussie battalion in the Pacific gets a run. The possibilities are endless.
Brett

 

[Mitch]

Your right who had the most comfortable boots, webbing that carries the most, best water bottles who made the best brew and, I still bet the brits would come last in everyone!!!!!!!!

Mind, the difficulty with such questions is also shown in the responses to it. unless you have studied the units in field every one just says the three SS divisions as that is what they have heard did all the fighting so, it slants any actual analysis of the actual combat and who did what to whom
Mitch

Mitch,
If you think this poll is difficult wait until we get to the best ships and fighter and bomber squadrons of Commonwealth/Brits, Germans and USA.
Hopefully the favourite Aussie battalion in the Pacific gets a run. The possibilities are endless.
Brett

 

[swalterh]

Mitch,
If you think this poll is difficult wait until we get to the best ships and fighter and bomber squadrons of Commonwealth/Brits, Germans and USA.
Hopefully the favourite Aussie battalion in the Pacific gets a run. The possibilities are endless.
Brett

I was thinking about doing Favorite/Best Commonwealth 8th Army and DAK divisions next.

 

[swalterh]

Your right who had the most comfortable boots, webbing that carries the most, best water bottles who made the best brew and, I still bet the brits would come last in everyone!!!!!!!!

Mind, the difficulty with such questions is also shown in the responses to it. unless you have studied the units in field every one just says the three SS divisions as that is what they have heard did all the fighting so, it slants any actual analysis of the actual combat and who did what to whom
Mitch

The fanaticism and sacrifice displayed by the 12th SS (Hitlerjugend) during their operations in Normandy was pretty legendary. The German combat formations’ ability to rebound after taking an absolute pounding and still keep fighting deserves its due as well. The Kampgruppe may have been one of the German Ground Forces’ best tactical level inovations.

 

[DMNamiot]

Hi folks

Please keep the discussion on target and the jackassery to a minimum. The thread asks a question that seems fairly simple to answer if you have a favorite unit.

Dave

 

[Mitch]

Ok. In relation the 12th SS I think the spirit was born from the fact that the 1st SS was striped just prior to action of its best NCO's and officers to create the HJ. Their expertise gained on the Russian front made the unit what it was. However, if I had to choose a unit from the german side it would be the 2nd SS with the green devils running a close second in terms of what they were able to do.
Mitch

 

[swalterh]

Ok. In relation the 12th SS I think the spirit was born from the fact that the 1st SS was striped just prior to action of its best NCO's and officers to create the HJ. Their expertise gained on the Russian front made the unit what it was. However, if I had to choose a unit from the german side it would be the 2nd SS with the green devils running a close second in terms of what they were able to do.
Mitch

Agreed, the junior officers and NCOs brought in from the 1st SS provided valuable experience and leadership to the highly motivated (perhaps fanatical) soldiers of the 12th SS. Plus, Fritz Witt and Kurt “Panzer” Meyer proved fairly effective in their handling of the division.

No doubt that 2nd SS and the Fallschirmjaeger’s performed well in Normandy as well.

IMO the final outcome of the Campaign was not realistically ever in question following the initial piercing of the Atlantic Wall and subsequent consolidation of the beach head. The massive advantage the allied ground forces enjoyed thanks to their respective air forces’ dominance over the Luftwaffe would have inevitably proved insurmountable. The question wasn’t if the Germans would eventually break, but when. What is amazing to consider about the Normandy Campaign is how well the Germans conducted their defense against such tremendous odds and the horrendous damage they were able to inflict on their opponents.

 

[Poppo]

My favourite, and for sure one of the best is the " Panzer Lehr" division: they were not fanatic nazi, but a wonderful armoured unit made of the cream of tanks' officiers teachers....The germans in Normandy had not enough divisions( because of Hitler' s mistake) to hope to pull back the huge allies power forces. The "Panzer Lehr" was heavily bombed during the approcah to the front, and then its power greatly diminished by spreading its forces along a too large front to keep.

Finally, the division was put on the line in St. Lo region; then 2000 american bombardiers on a few Km destroyed the P.L. positions. As this was not enough for the allied, another 400 Jabos were sent to kill the few survivors( safety first!), often become crazy by the previous heavy bombings. The work had been so well done that the american infantry had problems to drive into that moonscape of craters.

When a feldmarchal Kluge' s officier ordered Bayerlein to keep the front line, he replied: "my grenadiers will keep the trenches, pioneers too. they will keep, nobody will leave the line. They are in their holes,quiet and silent because they are dead, can you hear?"

 

[swalterh]

My favourite, and for sure one of the best is the " Panzer Lehr" division: they were not fanatic nazi, but a wonderful armoured unit made of the cream of tanks' officiers teachers....The germans in Normandy had not enough divisions( because of Hitler' s mistake) to hope to pull back the huge allies power forces. The "Panzer Lehr" was heavily bombed during the approcah to the front, and then its power greatly diminished by spreading its forces along a too large front to keep.

Finally, the division was put on the line in St. Lo region; then 2000 american bombardiers on a few Km destroyed the P.L. positions. As this was not enough for the allied, another 400 Jabos were sent to kill the few survivors( safety first!), often become crazy by the previous heavy bombings. The work had been so well done that the american infantry had problems to drive into that moonscape of craters.

When a feldmarchal Kluge' s officier ordered Bayerlein to keep the front line, he replied: "my grenadiers will keep the trenches, pioneers too. they will keep, nobody will leave the line. They are in their holes,quiet and silent because they are dead, can you hear?"

I agree that Panzer Lehr was definitely one of the better German units in Normandy. I would say that they probably come in second behind the 12th SS for me. One could make the case that their professionalism and expertise were unequaled in this campaign. Not to mention the division was a powerful formation that possessed some of the finest equipment available.

I also agree that many valuable German soldiers and equipment were squandered during the initial operations in Normandy because of Hitler’s obsession with holding every inch of territory. The “stand fast” or “Festung” strategy was a critical miscalculation on the part of Hitler and the German high command and cost the German ground forces valuable manpower resources.

These troops that were committed to almost suicidal missions could have been better utilized had the German commanders been permitted to disengage from the costly slugging match around Caen and reconstitute a more defensible line. This would have enabled them to take better advantage of the heavy striking power of their panzer formations. Instead the panzers were committed piece meal against the Commonwealth forces and almost surrounded and annihilated once the Americans were finally able to achieve a breakthrough.

The allied campaign in Normandy was a classic example of the Hammer and Anvil method of attack made famous by Alexander the Great at the Battle of Gaugamela. Patton’s US 3rd Army ended up playing the role of the Companion Cavalry that smashed the enemy against the Powerful Phalanx that was made up of the Commonwealth forces under Montgomery.

 

[Poppo]

I agree that Panzer Lehr was definitely one of the better German units in Normandy. I would say that they probably come in second behind the 12th SS for me. One could make the case that their professionalism and expertise were unequaled in this campaign. Not to mention the division was a powerful formation that possessed some of the finest equipment available.

I also agree that many valuable German soldiers and equipment were squandered during the initial operations in Normandy because of Hitler’s obsession with holding every inch of territory. The “stand fast” or “Festung” strategy was a critical miscalculation on the part of Hitler and the German high command and cost the German ground forces valuable manpower resources.

These troops that were committed to almost suicidal missions could have been better utilized had the German commanders been permitted to disengage from the costly slugging match around Caen and reconstitute a more defensible line. This would have enabled them to take better advantage of the heavy striking power of their panzer formations. Instead the panzers were committed piece meal against the Commonwealth forces and almost surrounded and annihilated once the Americans were finally able to achieve a breakthrough.

The allied campaign in Normandy was a classic example of the Hammer and Anvil method of attack made famous by Alexander the Great at the Battle of Gaugamela. Patton’s US 3rd Army ended up playing the role of the Companion Cavalry that smashed the enemy against the Powerful Phalanx that was made up of the Commonwealth forces under Montgomery.

The Hitler' s obsession to keep the line in any case was wrong ( it was right only during winter 41 in Russia, after the Moscow failed attack, when the Hitler' s order to stay where they were probably saved the whermacht from the disaster); but for some historians the " festung" tactic had some advantages on the eastern front in Poland to slow down the russian invasion ( cities like Konigsberg, and especially Breslau attracted many russian divisions around them).

In Normandy, the big german mistake( Hitler' s one) was that they didn' t send immedialely during the first days all the armoured divisions in reserve to push back the allied to the sea, but just a few drops to keep a weak front line while waiting for a main attack that didn' t exist ( another victory for the british intelligence service who let the germans believe that the main attack hadn' t happen yet.)

 

[swalterh]

The Hitler' s obsession to keep the line in any case was wrong ( it was right only during winter 41 in Russia, after the Moscow failed attack, when the Hitler' s order to stay where they were probably saved the whermacht from the disaster); but for some historians the " festung" tactic had some advantages on the eastern front in Poland to slow down the russian invasion ( cities like Konigsberg, and especially Breslau attracted many russian divisions around them).

In Normandy, the big german mistake( Hitler' s one) was that they didn' t send immedialely during the first days all the armoured divisions in reserve to push back the allied to the sea, but just a few drops to keep a weak front line while waiting for a main attack that didn' t exist ( another victory for the british intelligence service who let the germans believe that the main attack hadn' t happen yet.)

Agreed, Hitler’s order to hold the line in the winter of 1941 was a momentous decision that ultimately proved successful. But, the “stand fast” policy didn’t work out too well for Sixth Army @ Stalingrad or other German formations attempting to stem the Red tide during the Soviet drive towards Germany.

The argument can be made that the Germans would have been better served to pull their main line of resistance back on their base of supply during the winter months. Instead the Germans opted to maintain overly extended defensive positions that strained the limits of their logistical capabilities and slug it out with the Soviets, who were far superior at conducting winter operations.

In the West, the Germans believed that the allies would use the commander who they considered to be the allies’ best to lead the main effort against “Festung Europe”. Patton’s fictitious invasion force held the German High Command’s attention until he and 3rd Army were made operational in Normandy on August 1st. This situation led to the delayed commitment of Panzer forces to the battles around Caen.

By the time Hitler and OKW realized that they had been fooled, the situation in Normandy had degenerated to the point of collapse. The German formations narrowly escaped complete destruction at Falaise. Despite all of the controversy surrounding the conduct of operations and command decisions that followed the American breakthrough during operation Cobra, the campaign was still a major allied victory that dealt the German forces a severe blow.

 

[Denver]

My favorite is the one that was wiped out first.

 

[Mitch]

That is why you leave the fighting and tactics to the field commanders and, Germany had some superb tactical commanders at every level. Its not so much about supply as defending areas correctly and, the Germans knew how to do this. They could, when allowed, snatch victory from a sure fire defeat. Kharkov and Papa Hausser's defiance of the stand and fight shows this clearly. withdraw troops, regroup, and then wallop several Russian armies devastated and Kharkov is retaken.

Hitler's need to save face cost him the war.
Mitch

Agreed, Hitler’s order to hold the line in the winter of 1941 was a momentous decision that ultimately proved successful. But, the “stand fast” policy didn’t work out too well for Sixth Army @ Stalingrad or other German formations attempting to stem the Red tide during the Soviet drive towards Germany.

The argument can be made that the Germans would have been better served to pull their main line of resistance back on their base of supply during the winter months. Instead the Germans opted to maintain overly extended defensive positions that strained the limits of their logistical capabilities and slug it out with the Soviets, who were far superior at conducting winter operations.

In the West, the Germans believed that the allies would use the commander who they considered to be the allies’ best to lead the main effort against “Festung Europe”. Patton’s fictitious invasion force held the German High Command’s attention until he and 3rd Army were made operational in Normandy on August 1st. This situation led to the delayed commitment of Panzer forces to the battles around Caen.

By the time Hitler and OKW realized that they had been fooled, the situation in Normandy had degenerated to the point of collapse. The German formations narrowly escaped complete destruction at Falaise. Despite all of the controversy surrounding the conduct of operations and command decisions that followed the American breakthrough during operation Cobra, the campaign was still a major allied victory that dealt the German forces a severe blow.

 

[swalterh]

That is why you leave the fighting and tactics to the field commanders and, Germany had some superb tactical commanders at every level. Its not so much about supply as defending areas correctly and, the Germans knew how to do this. They could, when allowed, snatch victory from a sure fire defeat. Kharkov and Papa Hausser's defiance of the stand and fight shows this clearly. withdraw troops, regroup, and then wallop several Russian armies devastated and Kharkov is retaken.

Hitler's need to save face cost him the war.
Mitch

I agree with this assessment. As you said, the German Field Commanders were superb military professionals and devised sound operational and tactical level plans that were consistently overruled by the Fuhrer’s military “genius”.

Politicians should (in most cases) leave the fighting to their professionals in the field. It can most certainly be argued that Hitler lost the war for Germany once he decided to interject himself into the command hierarchy and in effect “micromanage” the German war effort.

What’s interesting about Normandy is that Rommel and Rundstedt vehemently disagreed about how best to respond to the pending allied invasion. But, after the initial phase of the campaign they both agreed that the most prudent course was to pull back, regroup and then conduct an aggressive, active defense similar to what Manstein and other commanders on the Eastern Front utilized to such great effect against the Soviets.