First Legion: WWII Modeling vs.1:35 built (1 Viewer)

Mark, you have sparked my interest...What brand are you purchasing? Is there WWII...Can you share some photos of your painted soldiers? Thank you Frank

I collect French-Indian War and I have a few sets from Michael Roberts and Time Machine painted.These are small 54mm's but are very nice.There are many manufacturers of these kits,mostly from Europe.Many of them do WWII.The best places to get them are www.redlancers.com ,www.michtoy.com and www.coloradominiatures.com I dont take pictures but my cousin was supposed to come over and take some for me but hasn't arrived yet.Maybe if I bug her enough she will as I would like to show my figures on the forum.Some of the companies figures are more 1/30.You can mix them up though just by putting the bigger figures in the front.These aren't cheap and if you can't paint it can get a little expensive.
Mark
 
As my interest in kit figures has slowly grown, I have only recently purchased a few resin kits and agree the detail is in most cases superior to metal kits in the same scale. The material is also very forgiving to work with, but must be careful when removing smaller parts from sprues to avoid breakage. I've only thus far invested in sale priced resin kits to practice painting techniques, but can see myself buying more in the future.

Love the Time Machine kits by the way, Mark. Wish I had the funds available to buy the whole "Last Stand at Gandamak" range for example. Loads of good stuff available in resin form. :)

MD
 
Love the Time Machine kits by the way, Mark. Wish I had the funds available to buy the whole "Last Stand at Gandamak" range for example. Loads of good stuff available in resin form. :)

MD[/QUOTE]

Yes Time Machines does have some nice kits.I have the Bushy Run set and I wish they would expand that also.Yeah the Gandamark sets are nice.They are coming out with a Alamo series,8 figures so far.Doug Cohen has a thread on Timelines where he painted them for TM.And what can you say about their Tuertoburg series,awesome isn't it.In Michael Roberts kits I have The Scouts and The Pursuit painted and one called A Matter of Time not painted yet.
Mark
 
I think if you hold opinions about manufacturers then is this not the place to voice them. If we cannot critique manufacturers what is the point of the site?

I do not believe these specific houses are for only stating good things as we all know there are many faults with products in this hobby from painting realism etc and for many this is the only medium to find these out before parting with considerable money. I also do not believe that any likening to religion has any point or purpose when discussing our hobby. I have no problem with anyone posting in any section a critique as long as it can be backed up. Keeping to specific houses sounds like censorship and denies honset debate about the flaws in the hobby. The FW debate among others shows this is very much needed

The debate about models and polystone is relevant as manufacturers are striving to reach expert plastic detail. My concern is that to get this will take longer and be more costly to the hobby and that is not welcome.
Mitch

I think we are pretty much in this forum, To enjoy our Hobby, And how it is such a positive thing to have. Not the negative aspects of our hobby, On how bad other manufacturers, are doing it.
My main point is Did we join the forum for the positive it brings to us , or the negative things that it brings out?
 
Another example, would be: If you are going to praise any soccer team( JUST AN EXAMPLE),Like Madrid. On any British, German, Or Brazilian Site. Not unless Instigating is the main purpose, of the opinion.
 
I haven't posted for a bit, but have read some comments about materials and such with folks commenting on resin or metal for figures and vehicles etc....

My thoughts based on experience are that high quality resin is the most detailed material for making castings - they are extremely beautiful and we do all of our mastering in resin. However, it can be brittle for parts like bayonets and rifles and for figures, I think metal is a better material for mass production plus metal figures feel better in the hand. Marco mentioned that the cost of resin is supposed to be cheaper than metal. Well, that of course depends on the resin as not all resins are made equally and some are far higher quality than others (stronger, less shrinkage, etc...). However, the bigger issue is that the molds used to make resin figures have an extremely short life while metal molds last about 8 times longer, so the cost of the molds and scrub rates have to be factored into the overall price making resin not a very suitable material for making hundreds/thousands of figures.

When it comes to plastic, the figures tend to be lower detail than resin, particularly the sides, because of the way injection molds work and the limitations of them. The advantage of plastic is that the part comes out of the mold very accurately every time you make a casting (i.e. the molds last pretty much forever and the parts don't degrade like they do with resin or metal molds). The downside with plastic of course is that the steel injection molds are terribly expensive to make. The plastic parts that come out are inexpensive to make, but unless you're doing thousands of something it's not really worth it to invest in the molds and this is probably the biggest reason why plastic isn't used very much in small run markets like pre-painted figures. When companies like Dragon or Tamiya or whoever who make model kits use plastic, they make thousands of them and then they reuse the same parts (and molds) in many many different kits, so it is economical for them.

Finally, when it comes to figures and how they are priced, there is more to consider than simply the level of the painting. Yes, the painting is a big part of it, however, the costs of the sculpting and the number of separate parts to the figure also play a factor. It's not unusual for a First Legion figure to have 10 to 12 or more separate parts to a single foot figure, nearly double what most other companies put into their figures.

In regards to making vehicles, I think resin/plastic is the best core material and then supplemented with other materials for added detail. Our vehicles for example are more highly detailed than plastic kits (of course, they're bigger than 1:35th kits and the extra size allows for extra detail). I also think (and some of you will laugh when I say this given that this is a polystone world!!!) that plastic vehicles are too light. Our tanks are very light when compared to polystone, but still about 6 times heavier than a plastic kit is. What makes people rave about 1:35th tanks isn't so much the kits themselves, it's the modellers who build and paint them to exceptional quality. And those guys tend to use a lot of after market resin and photo-etched products to customize the kits. Where plastic kits shine in comparison to most "toy soldier" vehicles is in the track and bogey wheel setup and the number of separate parts. When we created our vehicles, the highly detailed track setup was a huge priority as was making pretty much everything (ie. all detail parts, all view ports even if closed, grills, etc...) separate parts. More separate parts = more detail and better castings. In essence, we determined that we would create the most highly detailed vehicles that we possibly could and paint them as well as we possibly could without compromising on anything. We did this because there are already so many other companies that make polystone tanks and they make them well, so we decided we'd do something different and provide a much higher level of accuracy and realism. We feel we've achieved this, but that of course comes with a price as has been mentioned in discussions elsewhere.

Speaking of price, I also noticed that UK Subs made a comment that the new JJD tank makes our look over priced.

Who make that tank ? it look very good & I thought the price was very interesting & make First Legion stuff over priced ;)

This obervation is a bit misguided I'm sorry to say. The JJD tank is about 1/3rd the total size of our Panzer III for example, doesn't have nearly as many parts, the painting, while very nice, isn't nearly as detailed as ours, and it doesn't come with any figures as far as I know. It's a very nice tank to be sure, but when you put that tank side by side with our Panzer III for example, you'd understand where the difference in price comes from. I would like to think that if First Legion did a Panzer I, it would be under $200 as well...I also imagine that if one of the companies who makes Polystone tanks did something as small as a Panzer I, it would be under $100. So pricing is entirely relative to the materials used, the number of parts, the total size, and the level of the painting.

Just my thoughts...

Best,

Matt
 
I think we are pretty much in this forum, To enjoy our Hobby, And how it is such a positive thing to have. Not the negative aspects of our hobby, On how bad other manufacturers, are doing it.
My main point is Did we join the forum for the positive it brings to us , or the negative things that it brings out?

With all respect, I must disagree. We can, and certainly ought to, post opinions about any manufacturer's work, whether we like it or dislike it. Indeed, who better to judge a particular item than those who avidly collect it? What we should avoid is ad hominem attacks on others whose opinions differ from ours, and negative comments directed at this or that manufacturer which have little to back them up. For example, to say, "Polystone vehicles can't achieve the same level of detail that injection-molded styrene kits do", is an opinion, which can be supported by specific examples, as has been done earlier in this thread. But "Andy Neilson is a poopy-head" is an opinion that can't really be backed up, and is just a personal attack of the playground variety, which doesn't belong in any mature discussion of any hobby.

I think Vezzolf has made a valid observation, which has elicited a number of different viewpoints, and everyone's done a pretty good job of making his point and defending them. Excellent example of the forum in action.

And personally, I do think that model kits have a level of detail that cast resin or polystone can approach but never reach. The main advantage of injection molding is that you can mold details as many small parts to be assembled, as anyone who's built Dragon armor kits and put together 300 track links can attest.

For anyone who wants to see some really detailed armor models, I recommend visiting FineScaleModeler magazine's forum, and search for "armorguy". This kid builds 1/6 scale armor, starting with kits--who knew there were kits in that scale?--and then he super-details them, casting and machining parts in metal and in resin. I saw his US super heavy tank at MosquitoCon two years ago, and his M3 Lee last year, and it's astounding work, really fantastic detail. I think he's working on a Panther now. Worth having a look.

Prost!
Brad
 
I haven't posted for a bit, but have read some comments about materials and such with folks commenting on resin or metal for figures and vehicles etc....

My thoughts based on experience are that high quality resin is the most detailed material for making castings - they are extremely beautiful and we do all of our mastering in resin. However, it can be brittle for parts like bayonets and rifles and for figures, I think metal is a better material for mass production plus metal figures feel better in the hand. Marco mentioned that the cost of resin is supposed to be cheaper than metal. Well, that of course depends on the resin as not all resins are made equally and some are far higher quality than others (stronger, less shrinkage, etc...). However, the bigger issue is that the molds used to make resin figures have an extremely short life while metal molds last about 8 times longer, so the cost of the molds and scrub rates have to be factored into the overall price making resin not a very suitable material for making hundreds/thousands of figures.

When it comes to plastic, the figures tend to be lower detail than resin, particularly the sides, because of the way injection molds work and the limitations of them. The advantage of plastic is that the part comes out of the mold very accurately every time you make a casting (i.e. the molds last pretty much forever and the parts don't degrade like they do with resin or metal molds). The downside with plastic of course is that the steel injection molds are terribly expensive to make. The plastic parts that come out are inexpensive to make, but unless you're doing thousands of something it's not really worth it to invest in the molds and this is probably the biggest reason why plastic isn't used very much in small run markets like pre-painted figures. When companies like Dragon or Tamiya or whoever who make model kits use plastic, they make thousands of them and then they reuse the same parts (and molds) in many many different kits, so it is economical for them.

Finally, when it comes to figures and how they are priced, there is more to consider than simply the level of the painting. Yes, the painting is a big part of it, however, the costs of the sculpting and the number of separate parts to the figure also play a factor. It's not unusual for a First Legion figure to have 10 to 12 or more separate parts to a single foot figure, nearly double what most other companies put into their figures.

In regards to making vehicles, I think resin/plastic is the best core material and then supplemented with other materials for added detail. Our vehicles for example are more highly detailed than plastic kits (of course, they're bigger than 1:35th kits and the extra size allows for extra detail). I also think (and some of you will laugh when I say this given that this is a polystone world!!!) that plastic vehicles are too light. Our tanks are very light when compared to polystone, but still about 6 times heavier than a plastic kit is. What makes people rave about 1:35th tanks isn't so much the kits themselves, it's the modellers who build and paint them to exceptional quality. And those guys tend to use a lot of after market resin and photo-etched products to customize the kits. Where plastic kits shine in comparison to most "toy soldier" vehicles is in the track and bogey wheel setup and the number of separate parts. When we created our vehicles, the highly detailed track setup was a huge priority as was making pretty much everything (ie. all detail parts, all view ports even if closed, grills, etc...) separate parts. More separate parts = more detail and better castings. In essence, we determined that we would create the most highly detailed vehicles that we possibly could and paint them as well as we possibly could without compromising on anything. We did this because there are already so many other companies that make polystone tanks and they make them well, so we decided we'd do something different and provide a much higher level of accuracy and realism. We feel we've achieved this, but that of course comes with a price as has been mentioned in discussions elsewhere.

Speaking of price, I also noticed that UK Subs made a comment that the new JJD tank makes our look over priced.



This obervation is a bit misguided I'm sorry to say. The JJD tank is about 1/3rd the total size of our Panzer III for example, doesn't have nearly as many parts, the painting, while very nice, isn't nearly as detailed as ours, and it doesn't come with any figures as far as I know. It's a very nice tank to be sure, but when you put that tank side by side with our Panzer III for example, you'd understand where the difference in price comes from. I would like to think that if First Legion did a Panzer I, it would be under $200 as well...I also imagine that if one of the companies who makes Polystone tanks did something as small as a Panzer I, it would be under $100. So pricing is entirely relative to the materials used, the number of parts, the total size, and the level of the painting.

Just my thoughts...

Best,

Matt

Fair comment but at $300.00 a tank your pricing a lot of people out of the market , what I don't get is Dragon + Tamiya make build tanks of there models & added metal parts + great paint job but they don't charge $300.00
 
Fair comment but at $300.00 a tank your pricing a lot of people out of the market , what I don't get is Dragon + Tamiya make build tanks of there models & added metal parts + great paint job but they don't charge $300.00
I think you need to read the Quality thread again. No matter whether you like them or not they are a different product.;)
 
....For anyone who wants to see some really detailed armor models, I recommend visiting FineScaleModeler magazine's forum, and search for "armorguy". This kid builds 1/6 scale armor, starting with kits--who knew there were kits in that scale?--and then he super-details them, casting and machining parts in metal and in resin. I saw his US super heavy tank at MosquitoCon two years ago, and his M3 Lee last year, and it's astounding work, really fantastic detail. I think he's working on a Panther now. Worth having a look.

Prost!
Brad
That guy is amazing and it is well worth the look. I don't think he would sell you one of those for $200 though; I certainly wouldn't if I had that skill.:D
 
Just noticed that Veh001 appears to be sold out. :mad:

I like other manufacturer's tanks, too, but can not affort them: too many models are being issued, I can not keep up.

And then there is the issue of space.

I think FL found a sweet spot with me between number of models and price.
 
I think you need to read the Quality thread again. No matter whether you like them or not they are a different product.;)

What does that matter :confused:
K&C are made from polystone but people will still compare them to First legion :p
Were talking about how to make a high detail tank & if I think Dragon make it already & half the price then I'm more than in my rights to say that ,If you read Matt post he talk about how good model kit are as well :eek:
I have a very big collection of armour from a lot of different company's so I think I know what I'm talking about
 
That guy is amazing and it is well worth the look. I don't think he would sell you one of those for $200 though; I certainly wouldn't if I had that skill.:D

My mate build me high detail kits for £30.00 , but it who you know not what you know ;)
 
My mate build me high detail kits for £30.00 , but it who you know not what you know ;)
It is not just who you know but what they will do for you.;) He is indeed quite a mate since he basically gave you his time.
 
uksubs and Spitfrnd...as this is turning into a personal tit for tat conversation between the two of you, I recommend that you move it offline to a PM.

Thanks!
 
Very true..In regards to 1:35 scale custom builders;You are paying for the skill level, artistry and the time involved to build a kit to exspert levels.....In that regard it is not unusual to pay $200-$250+ for a built 1:35 scale model.....All of us would love to see lower prices but remember the cost of polstone AFV's is not all that cheap today $170-$225......With that being said First Legion's prices although not the lowest are not as high as some may think given the increased quality and detailing
 
Very true..In regards to 1:35 scale custom builders;You are paying for the skill level, artistry and the time involved to build a kit to exspert levels.....In that regard it is not unusual to pay $200-$250+ for a built 1:35 scale model.....All of us would love to see lower prices but remember the cost of polstone AFV's is not all that cheap today $170-$225......With that being said First Legion's prices although not the lowest are not as high as some may think given the increased quality and detailing
For me First Legion have set the stand on detail & it good to see them using resin instead of ploystone as we all know you can't get the detail will all want
 
uksubs and Spitfrnd...as this is turning into a personal tit for tat conversation between the two of you, I recommend that you move it offline to a PM.

Thanks!
Peter, we are exchanging our ideas without any hostility displayed or intended. We have had many friendly conversations before and never took any difference in perspective personally as far as I know. Besides, we agree far more than we do not, even in this thread. Are we not free to have discussions of mutual interest any further?:confused:
 
What does that matter :confused:
K&C are made from polystone but people will still compare them to First legion :p
Were talking about how to make a high detail tank & if I think Dragon make it already & half the price then I'm more than in my rights to say that ,If you read Matt post he talk about how good model kit are as well :eek:
I have a very big collection of armour from a lot of different company's so I think I know what I'm talking about
I am sure you do know what you are talking about. My point simply was that the reason some products cost less is a function in part of how many they make from the same cast and the number of parts, material and time spent in painting, points that were also noted in Matt's post. I also quite agree with you that good model kits can be amazing and you are quite fortunate to have such a friend. From the pictures you have posted, his work is most impressive.:cool:

For me First Legion have set the stand on detail & it good to see them using resin instead of ploystone as we all know you can't get the detail will all want

I couldn't agree more.:)
 
Its been very interesting this debate about kits and our hobby and, this has transgressed from K&C to Figarti and into FL.

I was talking about polystone with a friend who gave me a description of it which surprised me somewhat as I did not really know what it was only, that it was somewhat different to mediums I know about like resin plastic etc

Polystone is the common name for polyethylene (another form of plastic) but, there are two types low density and high density. Polystone offers good resistance to moisture and impact, heat, sunlight and has good rigidity so, will not degrade over time.

Polystone distorts at about 80 degrees celsiuos it is not that ductide lighter than water and can thus be easily moulded, machined and joined toghether by form of welding (though difficult to glue)

Its a thermoplastic as well meaning it can be heated and reshaped and cooled. It is easy to mould and rather durable and, the higher heaqt resistance allows greater life to the product as it resisits better atmospheric conditions compared to other mediums.

I thought it was a marble based medium but, was surprised to see how close it is to other mediums. I found this interesting as the debate about mediums and what have you is IMO a little closer than we think
Mitch
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top