FL Armored Fighting Vehicles: Weathered, Battle-worn and Broken-down (1 Viewer)

[Andanna]

It appears as if comments on the AFV's issued so far by First Legion also focus on the absence of heavy battle damage and weathering. Therefore I may take the liberty to ask whether there would be an interest in First Legion's customers that Matt offer either through First Legion or a third party, such as H&A, a more battle-worn or weathered version of the AFV's issued by FL. I am of course aware of the fact that any additional work performed on the FL AFV's will add to cost and hence price. Therefore, please be aware in your response that choice will come at a price.

Observations invited.

Before:

After:

 

[FirstLegion]

I'm going to jump right in on this one! To my recollection, only one person said our Stug isn't very weathered and I really didn't agree with his opinion on it at all. I think it's very well weathered and really looks nothing like the minty fresh paint job shown on the Dragon Tiger "before" image.

Now, as for the after market customization that Ken has done to the Tiger - it's obviously fantastic. I personally would love to see what he could do with one of our Stugs in regards to adding the mud detailing, perhaps some battle damage, etc... I'm sure it would be incredible and would raise what is already a superb model to heights reaching the stratosphere. We have discussed internally the possibility of doing a VERY small number of specials with additional detailing, but as you've already pointed out, the price would go up and the model would just end up competing with itself, which doesn't do us too much good from a business perspective. Further, if we were to do it ourselves, you'd only get the customizations that we offer and wouldn't be free to have it exactly the way you want it as there is no way we'll ever get into a customer specific customization scheme.

So, my recommendation to collectors who might want our tanks taken to a new level of reality would be to have a professional modeler such as Ken do custom after market work on it. In the case of our tanks, I really don't think he'd have to change the painting at all, but could certainly add additional detailing such as the mud as well as custom markings and some battle damage. Really, he could do whatever the customer wanted and I'm sure the results would be breathtaking. But as for First Legion doing customization work, that's not going to happen.

Best,

Matt
First Legion Ltd

 

[fmethorst]

It will be interesting to see how FL handles their weathering for battles that took place in primarily muddy conditions or snow for that matter. Vehicles operating in these conditions were filthy and I think Ken's weathering does a good job of representing this.

I'd also like to point out that RAL 7021 "Schwarzgrau" (Black Grey) was VERY dark when it was new and in many pictures I have studied shows a semi-matte sheen. Here are a couple examples:

Even after spending some time in the field the grey was still quite dark although dirt and dust contributed considerably to making the vehicle appear lighter.

It would take a lot of weathering to fade the "factory fresh" grey to the level depicted in the FL pieces and many of the other "German Grey" AFV sold by the various manufacturers.

 

[Vezzolf]

Personally, I agree with Matt on this one......Weathering of FL AFV's should be and remain "moderate" so as to appeal to a wide range of collector's preferences.......Costs being what they are and given the difficult economic times.....increased or custom weathering should rest in the sole responsibility of the individual so as NOT to drive prices higher.....either learn to do it yourself (practicing on 1:35 scale models)or have it customized by a skilled party.......

 

[Gebhard]

Personally, I agree with Matt on this one......Weathering of FL AFV's should be and remain "moderate" so as to appeal to a wide range of collector's preferences.......Costs being what they are and given the difficult economic times.....increased or custom weathering should rest in the sole responsibility of the individual so as NOT to drive prices higher.....either learn to do it yourself (practicing on 1:35 scale models)or have it customized by a skilled party.......

Amen Brother

 

[Flammenpanzer]

Most of the vehicles painted by modelers these days are over weathered, rusted, and paint chipped to death. Vehicles will get dirty with dust and mud, but some look as if they had been in service for 20 years. Remember that vehicles are freshly issued to the front will not get too beat up right away.

 

[Phantom Warrior]

Most of the vehicles painted by modelers these days are over weathered, rusted, and paint chipped to death. Vehicles will get dirty with dust and mud, but some look as if they had been in service for 20 years. Remember that vehicles are freshly issued to the front will not get too beat up right away.

Too right. Conversation at a local model shop with a Panzer veteran who must be over 90 was quite indignant about how the tanks are modeled today. There was virtually no rust on German AFVs because everything was basecoated and painted with camo colours. The tanks were always covered with a sheen of oil from lubricant oozing, and engine emissions and exhaust. Any rust was scaped and painted - officers would not allow rusty AFVs. Mud in seams, the red undercoating and heat baked grills could be mistaken for rust. Exposed mufflers were about the only thing that would rust aside from the tracks which would have rust in the morning but not after a few hours use.

Bare metal was painted so it wouldn't glint.

Terry

 

[redhugh]

It will be interesting to see how FL handles their weathering for battles that took place in primarily muddy conditions or snow for that matter. Vehicles operating in these conditions were filthy and I think Ken's weathering does a good job of representing this.

I'd also like to point out that RAL 7021 "Schwarzgrau" (Black Grey) was VERY dark when it was new and in many pictures I have studied shows a semi-matte sheen. Here are a couple examples:

Even after spending some time in the field the grey was still quite dark although dirt and dust contributed considerably to making the vehicle appear lighter.

It would take a lot of weathering to fade the "factory fresh" grey to the level depicted in the FL pieces and many of the other "German Grey" AFV sold by the various manufacturers.

what is that car parked beside the upper house on the left of the picture, the one with the canvas? hood...looks interesting

 

[fmethorst]

what is that car parked beside the upper house on the left of the picture, the one with the canvas? hood...looks interesting

Not sure but it kind of looks like a Horch 108 Type 1A

 

[desk11desk12]

It appears as if comments on the AFV's issued so far by First Legion also focus on the absence of heavy battle damage and weathering. Therefore I may take the liberty to ask whether there would be an interest in First Legion's customers that Matt offer either through First Legion or a third party, such as H&A, a more battle-worn or weathered version of the AFV's issued by FL. I am of course aware of the fact that any additional work performed on the FL AFV's will add to cost and hence price. Therefore, please be aware in your response that choice will come at a price.

Observations invited.

Before:

After:

Andanna:

Try Alex (Alexdakar) or Mark (Mark/Build-A-Rama) for expert and I mean great repainting/ weathering AFV's. I've had as many 20 of them done and have never been disappointment.

Make sure you communicate well the kind of weathering or painting you're looking for and providing them with picture samples works well too.

Good luck and enjoy and won't be disappointment choosing either one of them.

Carlos

 

[Andanna]

Thank you for the recommendation, Carlos. Will do once I decided on the next diorama beyond Stalingrad. Stalingrad is progressing and I do not think that the Sturmgeschuetz needs additional weathering for late summer 1942.

I hence think additional treatment of the model not to be necessary. What do the more experienced modelers think?

I agree with Matt's post although there might be situations where more weathering is required than in the urban warfare scenario and I am likewise looking forward to Matt solving that challenge.

 

[hsm]

Hi all ,
Being a tanker myself I would like to add a comment. Vehicles aren't normally "over the top" dirty. They can be disgusting one day (after drivng through a swamp and risking getting stuck and killed) then it rains and the vehicle is cleaned, Then it gets hot and you drive on dusty roads, and
the vehicle turns light brown.....then you drive through the bushes the next day and the vehicle cleans up again.... Then a morning of dew....etc
As for Rust-normally verbotten! ther is so much 90 weight oil and grease around those things....that is where the dirt sticks...hinges Grease nipples/seams/seals on drive trains etc.
When I was a Troop 2iC I could tell if the drivers had been doing their jobs by seeing if dirt had been wiped away from things they should be "visually checking Daliy. Also, all glass must be kept clean for optimum performance, but may be dirtied if in an extreme hide....Hatches should almost always be shut, keeps out the weather, and those holes are easily picked up by aerial photography, even even when hiding in the woods.
General Rule of thumb, tankers did/should treat their vehicle the same as a Cavalry man cares for a horse. They are the same traditional Corps.
It would be typical to see a mud/wear path at the mounting points on the vehicle Front fenders to hatches and around the area where a few crewman would be needed to lift engine panels to "check the oil". Guys learn quick to really clean/scrape their boots up on the tracks fenders before progressing further....no one likes to be dirty!
Regards, Grant

 

[Rob]

Whilst I'm sure in WW2 Tank crew kept their AFV's as clean and free from dirt and rust as possible, I cannot believe it didn't happen sometimes.In prolonged actions or retirements it would be near impossible to find the time to keep a pristine vehicle.Also whatever one person experienced in their particular theatre of WW2 they cannot speak for all other Tank crew in all other theaters.Human nature and the vagaries of war could not allow all Tanks to be in pristine condition all the time,it just couldn't happen.

Rob

 

[fmethorst]

In the case of WWII German AFVs painted dark grey (RAL7021) dust and dirt would certainly have been an enhancement to the existing "camouflage". There is a reason the dark grey was abandoned in favor of Dunkelgelb (RAL7028) in 1943.

 

[Gebhard]

I'm going to jump right in on this one! To my recollection, only one person said our Stug isn't very weathered and I really didn't agree with his opinion on it at all. I think it's very well weathered and really looks nothing like the minty fresh paint job shown on the Dragon Tiger "before" image.

Now, as for the after market customization that Ken has done to the Tiger - it's obviously fantastic. I personally would love to see what he could do with one of our Stugs in regards to adding the mud detailing, perhaps some battle damage, etc... I'm sure it would be incredible and would raise what is already a superb model to heights reaching the stratosphere. We have discussed internally the possibility of doing a VERY small number of specials with additional detailing, but as you've already pointed out, the price would go up and the model would just end up competing with itself, which doesn't do us too much good from a business perspective. Further, if we were to do it ourselves, you'd only get the customizations that we offer and wouldn't be free to have it exactly the way you want it as there is no way we'll ever get into a customer specific customization scheme.

So, my recommendation to collectors who might want our tanks taken to a new level of reality would be to have a professional modeler such as Ken do custom after market work on it. In the case of our tanks, I really don't think he'd have to change the painting at all, but could certainly add additional detailing such as the mud as well as custom markings and some battle damage. Really, he could do whatever the customer wanted and I'm sure the results would be breathtaking. But as for First Legion doing customization work, that's not going to happen.

Best,

Matt
First Legion Ltd

I think the FL Stug looks fine and no matter what you produce there will always be someone saying something whether it be not heavy enough , not dark enough , not weathered enough, not big enough , whatever ...I think Ive heard em all. I think it would be Great if people just bought what they like and let the rest of us do the same. Wow wouldn't that be nice Please read Matt's post again . Gebhard

 

[Rob]

I think the FL Stug looks fine and no matter what you produce there will always be someone saying something whether it be not heavy enough , not dark enough , not weathered enough, not big enough , whatever ...I think Ive heard em all. I think it would be Great if people just bought what they like and let the rest of us do the same. Wow wouldn't that be nice Please read Matt's post again . Gebhard

I have always said the Stug is superbly weathered and painted,never said anything else

Rob

 

[Gebhard]

I have always said the Stug is superbly weathered and painted,never said anything else

Rob

I didn't quote you But I'm glad were in agreement that the FL Stug is superbly weathered and painted .

 

[fmethorst]

I think the FL Stug looks fine and no matter what you produce there will always be someone saying something whether it be not heavy enough , not dark enough , not weathered enough, not big enough , whatever ...I think Ive heard em all. I think it would be Great if people just bought what they like and let the rest of us do the same. Wow wouldn't that be nice Please read Matt's post again . Gebhard

Gebhard, I don't think this thread is about crticizing the FL Stug. It's about weathering in general. Personally I find it quite interesting.

 

[fmethorst]

Mud, dust and snow. That's the East Front.

 

[Gebhard]

Gebhard, I don't think this thread is about crticizing the FL Stug. It's about weathering in general. Personally I find it quite interesting.[/QUOTE
Dear fmethorst , I don't think you understand my comment please feel free to PM me .I like your Photo's maybe should state were you got them I'm sure some of the members not knowing would be interested .
"It would take a lot of weathering to fade the "factory fresh" grey to the level depicted in the FL pieces" I'm sorry I misunderstand what you are trying to say. All the best Gebhard