General Scale Questions. (1 Viewer)

[Empire MM]

I post this solely as a collector who, like many other collectors, can get confused with all the questions of scale and measurements, I have decided to create this post to enable open dialogue / discussion on this topic while not clogging up important space for any manufacturer.

I wish to make it abundantly clear to everyone that I am not posting as Empire nor am I trying to take any cheap shots at anyone. I collect many manufacturers products and have a healthy respect and regard for all and any manufacturer.

The question was raised within the Figarty section about comparability and I promised I would create a new thread for people to discuss so, here it is. I will add my own opinions and questions later as, I do have some questions to ask.

Hope this helps everyone.

Malcolm.

 

[Empire MM]

I post this solely as a collector who, like many other collectors, can get confused with all the questions of scale and measurements, I have decided to create this post to enable open dialogue / discussion on this topic while not clogging up important space for any manufacturer.

I wish to make it abundantly clear to everyone that I am not posting as Empire nor am I trying to take any cheap shots at anyone. I collect many manufacturers products and have a healthy respect and regard for all and any manufacturer.

The question was raised within the Figarty section about comparability and I promised I would create a new thread for people to discuss so, here it is. I will add my own opinions and questions later as, I do have some questions to ask.

Hope this helps everyone.

Malcolm.

This is the post that kind of started this off.




Default Re: Figarti 2015 Overview
Quote Originally Posted by katana View Post
1/30 has become a catagory not a measurement. Within the catagory of 1/30 Toy Soldiers are found 68MM TCS, K&C and Figarti figures and 60MM First Legion figures. Now W. Britians has joined the legion of incompatable figures, abandoning the 1/32 scale they established as a standard for Toy Soldiers over 85 years ago!
The 1/18 scale plastc Toy Soldiers from 21st Century Toys, BBI, Unimax and Dragon have greater compatability in vehicles and figure scales. The 1/18 scale PAK 40, Sd Kfz 251 and Panther G, I have displayed in a diorama are every bit as accurate as their polystone equivalents and cost considerably less! The weapons are even the correct scale for the figures. The Dragon 18 Series Arnhem figures are very impressive. The 1/18 scale companies can maintain scale standards in pieces that cost 25% of polystone pieces. Why can't the polysone manufactures? The failure to do so is a diservice to their customers!


Hello,
1/30 is in fact a scale. W.Britain has been sculpting their matte finished figures in that scale for a decade now. I know as l have been one of the chief sculptors for that entire period.
Traditional gloss W.Britain have been 54mm in height, more or less, for a very long time. This is not a scale and select reproduction figures are still modeled to that esthetic.
Only the classic gloss Redcoats and Bluecoats over the past 10 years have been scaled at 1/32nd.
I would suggest we return this thread to discussing the fine Figarti products.

Ken.

 

[Empire MM]

This is the post that kind of started this off.




Default Re: Figarti 2015 Overview
Quote Originally Posted by katana View Post
1/30 has become a catagory not a measurement. Within the catagory of 1/30 Toy Soldiers are found 68MM TCS, K&C and Figarti figures and 60MM First Legion figures. Now W. Britians has joined the legion of incompatable figures, abandoning the 1/32 scale they established as a standard for Toy Soldiers over 85 years ago!
The 1/18 scale plastc Toy Soldiers from 21st Century Toys, BBI, Unimax and Dragon have greater compatability in vehicles and figure scales. The 1/18 scale PAK 40, Sd Kfz 251 and Panther G, I have displayed in a diorama are every bit as accurate as their polystone equivalents and cost considerably less! The weapons are even the correct scale for the figures. The Dragon 18 Series Arnhem figures are very impressive. The 1/18 scale companies can maintain scale standards in pieces that cost 25% of polystone pieces. Why can't the polysone manufactures? The failure to do so is a diservice to their customers!


Hello,
1/30 is in fact a scale. W.Britain has been sculpting their matte finished figures in that scale for a decade now. I know as l have been one of the chief sculptors for that entire period.
Traditional gloss W.Britain have been 54mm in height, more or less, for a very long time. This is not a scale and select reproduction figures are still modeled to that esthetic.
Only the classic gloss Redcoats and Bluecoats over the past 10 years have been scaled at 1/32nd.
I would suggest we return this thread to discussing the fine Figarti products.

Ken.

And this was the question I genuinely asked in response.

Are the "new" W Britain figures bigger than there previous releases? Or is this just another "scale" thing? one mans 1/32 is often another mans 1/30 and so on....

I have not purchased any new WB product for over a year now so I cannot and have not put new to old side by side. If anyone can, it would be genuinely interesting, as a collector of all sorts and brands, to see if there is any difference. Maybe someone could photograph this for us all?

I recently photographed my own figures alongside some from my personal collection of WB / K&C / FL / JJD / TG / DP etc and the difference between some are very noticeable..... Between others, not so...

I genuinely would like to know.

Hope no one minds me jumping in here by the way.

Thanks,

Malcolm.:salute::

 

[maddadicus]

And this was the question I genuinely asked in response.

I have come to a point where I do not trust any mfg's intepretation of their idea of scale, but whether a figure sizes up by look next to another. I have many vehicles from various mfgs. that look ok next to each other. I have figures that match up the same way. My problem is when a mfg. changes their sizing within their own lines. Britains has done this. Collectors Showcase , First Legion, KC , John Jenkins and even Figarti. It seems ,mold inconsistancies, sculptor's intepretation, etc. end up as the excuses offered. Relly screws up my collectors head. I have stopped buying from some companies, because they cannot keep their own lines right ,at least in sizing. Michael

 

[Empire MM]

I have come to a point where I do not trust any mfg's intepretation of their idea of scale, but whether a figure sizes up by look next to another. I have many vehicles from various mfgs. that look ok next to each other. I have figures that match up the same way. My problem is when a mfg. changes their sizing within their own lines. Britains has done this. Collectors Showcase , First Legion, KC , John Jenkins and even Figarti. It seems ,mold inconsistancies, sculptor's intepretation, etc. end up as the excuses offered. Relly screws up my collectors head. I have stopped buying from some companies, because they cannot keep their own lines right ,at least in sizing. Michael

Hi Michael,

I do get your frustration, my OCD's are becoming quite my most famous feature (or asset maybe?).

Following Ken's response, I dug out some boxes and below is what I recalled Britain's being not so long ago, and these are matte figures... So what are they, scale wise, they sure as heck ( in my opinion) are not 1/30 scale, how can they be if the box label States 54mm?

I am just getting to the stage where I view each figure / release as a separate entity in general and if it fits in, it fits in, if it doesn't then it can go in a separate display area. All the same, very confusing and somewhat annoying.

Malcolm.:salute::

 

[jazzeum]

The figures made by Britain's, at least under Ken's auspices, are true 1/30. Ken knows scale and, frankly, he's the only one I trust when he says it's 1/30. Second on the list would be Matt from First Legion. I have quite a few of their Civil War and sizewise they go very well with WB.

 

[theBaron]

A discussion about scale? Not again!

Prost!
Brad

 

[jazzeum]

A discussion about scale? Not again!

Prost!
Brad

I agree with Brad. Do we really need another one?

Just use the search function and you'll find enough to make your heart content.

 

[The Military Workshop]

A discussion about scale? Not again!

Prost!
Brad

This one has a different angle we have not seen before. A manufacturer not commenting as his own brand but as a collector. Could get really interesting when Andy of K&C and Matt of FL and others go along the same route^&grin.

 

[jazzeum]

Yes, that's quite true. Although you're not posting as a manufacturer Malcolm, you are a manufacturer and should know scale so I really don't see the need for this.

 

[Imperial Miniatures]

This is an ongoing discussion in the world of wargaming figures (where I run Black Hat Miniatures) and is mostly because wargames figures aren't made to a scale but to a size (28mm, 15mm, etc). This means that different people measure to a different point on the figure.

Do you measure to the top of the head or to the eyes?

54mm isn't a scale, it is a size and different 54mm could be different sizes because of that.

Mike

 

[katana]

Ken; When I stated that 1/30 was a catagory not a scale I was being sarcastic. 1/30 scale = 60mm figure height. I have figures from Figarti, K&C, TCS and Honor Bound that measure 68mm from top of base to top of head! The Figarti figure and Honor Bound figures stand taller than the deck of the Panther tank they came with and look unrealistic. A 68mm tall figure is 1/27 scale not 1/30 scale.
Collectors pay premium prices for accurate polystone models. Figures should be proportionate to the vehicles irrespective of the scale. 1/18 figures are 100mm tall and the deck of a 1/18 Tiger I is 100mm tall. The proportion is accurate and visually correct. I use the 68+ mm figures with 1/25 scale Tamiya models and they appear far more realistic in proportion than the polystone vehicles from their respective manufacturers! The Tamiya tank models are more accurate too! A reason for the sucess of First Legion WWII figures given their high cost is scale consistancy that results in accuracy of proportion and realistic representation of crew served vehicles and artillery. The reason the scale accuracy question keeps coming up is it is a problem that needs to be adressed!

 

[WBritain]

I agree with you completely. People are different heights and weights so some variation is fine, but as a rule there is a general range that is visually acceptable for many miniatures.

This is partially because of the average age and physical condition of most soldiers at given points in history. The Allied press made a point on reporting very young and very old members of the German armed forces during the 1944/45 period as it was considered a sure sign of stress for Nazi Germany.

Better diets for nineteenth century Americans, meant much of the imported clothing purchased from France simply was too small to use during the American Civil War.
You could even consider race or region for height and weight differences, but the equipment should scale correctly for a given ratio.

Scale is determined by quantifiable items that are a know size such as a weapons, equipment or a vehicle.
Doing the math is easy.
Ken

 

[trooper]

Ken is right, the only true measurement is the weapon. My own practise is to make dolly figures in the various sizes required, then cast them up and hand build them into the position and uniform needed. This ensures uniformity of size and makes it easy to denote compatibility. If I make true 54mm ( to the top of the head, NOT the eyes. A subject on which I could rant for hours) then I can be sure that ATS Lancer, Yeomanry Miniatures, Toy Army Workshop, Music in Miniature, Asset, the BMSS, Squadron Range and Sarum Soldiers are all compatible. By the same token a slightly larger and heavier figures means the same for ATS, Little Legion, Tradition, Wilson Edwards and The Model Armoury. All it takes is a simple very basic shape to start with whch can then be taken apart and reassembled in the required position and then dressed in the desired uniform. Trooper

 

[Andanna]

Could not agree more.

 

[theBaron]

This one has a different angle we have not seen before. A manufacturer not commenting as his own brand but as a collector. Could get really interesting when Andy of K&C and Matt of FL and others go along the same route^&grin.

I don't think that's really that different from other discussions about scale/size across the range of figures.

I'm not saying you all shouldn't discuss it, I just think we've pretty much covered everything there is to cover on the topic. But I'm sure everyone will enjoy it, this is what a hot stove league is all about.

Prost!
Brad

 

[katana]

The figures made by Britain's, at least under Ken's auspices, are true 1/30. Ken knows scale and, frankly, he's the only one I trust when he says it's 1/30. Second on the list would be Matt from First Legion. I have quite a few of their Civil War and sizewise they go very well with WB.

The W. Britians website states that matte figures are 1/30 Scale 58 MM high! 1/30 Scale is 60MM high! Several Toy Soldier vendors state W. Britians are 1/32 Scale 54MM high. Obviously a lot of misinformation is circulating. Photos of actual figures from each manufacturer side by side indicate large differences in height within the same scale exceeding average human height variations. One photo shows a K&C figure at 66 MM next to a First Legion figure at 59MM; yet both are specified as 1/30 Scale. Several vendors point out these differences to their customers to avoid disatisfaction. I really like the 1/27 scale figures because they work very well with my growing collection of 1/25 scale models; but they are unrealistic next to 1/30 Scale armor. TCS is the only Toy Soldier manufacturer to date to attempt to address this problem by offering armor in the same Scale as the figures; approximatly 1/27 Scale. First Legion has done an excellent job of maintaining proportionality between figures and vehicles from inception and is the only true 1/30 Scale 60mm WWII product line.

 

[marco55]

A 1/30 scale can be 58mm tall.The scale is for the weapons and other equipment.
Mark

 

[Martin Tabony]

Scale is a proportion of the real thing. Lets say a rifle is 1000 mm long then in 1/30th scale 1000 divided by 30 equals 33.33 mm Any piece of equipment should always have the same size if it is the same scale.
Human beings vary but scale does not. So a man standing five foot six inches (168 cm) in 1/30th (scale) would be 56 mm (size). A man standing five foot nine inches (176 cm) would be 58.0 mm A man standing six feet (183 cm) would be 61 mm .
One common way to get proportions right is to look at yourself in the mirror, so obviously a short sculptor would produce a short figure and a tall sculptor a tall figure! This doesn't make the figures wrong or out of scale, as long as the equipment the figures are using is correct.
As a matter of interest the least variable part of the human is the head. A large head will make the figure appear short and vice versa.
The same goes for animals, so that a horses body for instance is proportionate to a square of two and one half heads.
If you think a figure looks too short, then simply times the measurement of the figure by what ever the stated scale is. If you think the result is realistic, then it is within scale.
By the way measure from the top of the head, not the eyes. I know lots of figures will be wearing hats. The eyes are set two thirds of the height of the head. So measure from the chin to the eye and add one third to find the top of the head.

Martin

 

[katana]

A 58mm figure next to a 68mm figure; both considered to be 1/30 scale, is equivalent to a 5'8" man standing next to a 6'8" man! Possible but unlikely. The problem is not with the 58mm figure; which is about 1/31 scale, but with the 68mm figure which is 1/27 scale. The prblem is also one of proportionality. Compare a First Legion figure next to a K&C figure and tell me they look realistic together in a diorama!