Genocide and Other Matters... (2 Viewers)

[maddadicus]

Re: The Little Bighorn

I am absolutely confused by this argument. It seems to me that the Indians who perpetrated Fort Mims, the white Americans who displaced and killed off an estimated 19 million Indians and the Nazis who massacred millions of Jews, Gypsies, and other people they considered sub-human are all a bunch of mass murdering scum, no matter what their rationalization for their conduct. If there is a hell, they are all toasting there as we speak. Once you intentionally kill another human being who is not actively trying to kill you, especially a woman or child, you have reneged on your membership dues in the human race. Why are you having a prolonged argument about which group of mass murderers is the worst? Do the dead victims care if their murderer was slightly more or less terrible compared to other mass murderers? The victims are all still dead. Frankly, if I were at Fort Mims, or Wounded Knee, or the Jewish Ghetto in Warsaw, I pray that I would have had the guts and the sense to turn a gun on the agressor, and sell my life as dearly as possible killing the Indians, or U.S. Cavalrymen or Nazi scum who was trying to kill those innocent women and children.

Dear Louis, then doesn't your museum of toy soldiers honor those Nazi Scum, the British Colonial Racists , or us good ole Indian Exterminators? Let us **** all soldiers from any era ,fighting any war because somewhere , somehow, someone now thinks they were BAD. And to further insult them, we will tag PC terms to their once honorable dead bodies such as racist, mass murderer and scum..I know that is not why you collect, but I wanted to make a point as to how wrong this thread has become....War was never meant to be sterile. Wars to win generally never had rules. How do you feel about us dropping 2 atomic bombs on unsuspecting civilians in the noble war of WW2. This is a discussion that will GO around in circles and never end. We allowed one member trolling to utterly disrupt a military strategy discussion. One member throwing mud to see what sticks and we all fell for it. We spent all our time defending against statements that not one bit of evidence was ever offered. Just throw it out there, be obnoxious in the presenting of it and then watch us dance...Louis, you even bit. Not all of us are lawyers or college professors or even have the knack of presenting our case in a coherent manor. But when we are trashed, we will bite back. And we Americans were trashed...Michael

 

[1879fanatic]

Re: The Little Bighorn

Dear Louis, then doesn't your museum of toy soldiers honor those Nazi Scum, the British Colonial Racists , or us good ole Indian Exterminators? Let us **** all soldiers from any era ,fighting any war because somewhere , somehow, someone now thinks they were BAD. And to further insult them, we will tag PC terms to their once honorable dead bodies such as racist, mass murderer and scum..I know that is not why you collect, but I wanted to make a point as to how wrong this thread has become....War was never meant to be sterile. Wars to win generally never had rules. How do you feel about us dropping 2 atomic bombs on unsuspecting civilians in the noble war of WW2. This is a discussion that will GO around in circles and never end. We allowed one member trolling to utterly disrupt a military strategy discussion. One member throwing mud to see what sticks and we all fell for it. We spent all our time defending against statements that not one bit of evidence was ever offered. Just throw it out there, be obnoxious in the presenting of it and then watch us dance...Louis, you even bit. Not all of us are lawyers or college professors or even have the knack of presenting our case in a coherent manor. But when we are trashed, we will bite back. And we Americans were trashed...Michael

No more needs to be said, more eloquently! Anyway, this touchy-feely stuff is hard to debate, since it's unreasonable from the beginning. I'm going downstairs to display some more colonial rasist murderers in my Zulu collection!
Mike

 

[Louis Badolato]

Re: The Little Bighorn

Dear Louis, then doesn't your museum of toy soldiers honor those Nazi Scum, the British Colonial Racists , or us good ole Indian Exterminators? Let us **** all soldiers from any era ,fighting any war because somewhere , somehow, someone now thinks they were BAD. And to further insult them, we will tag PC terms to their once honorable dead bodies such as racist, mass murderer and scum..I know that is not why you collect, but I wanted to make a point as to how wrong this thread has become....War was never meant to be sterile. Wars to win generally never had rules. How do you feel about us dropping 2 atomic bombs on unsuspecting civilians in the noble war of WW2. This is a discussion that will GO around in circles and never end. We allowed one member trolling to utterly disrupt a military strategy discussion. One member throwing mud to see what sticks and we all fell for it. We spent all our time defending against statements that not one bit of evidence was ever offered. Just throw it out there, be obnoxious in the presenting of it and then watch us dance...Louis, you even bit. Not all of us are lawyers or college professors or even have the knack of presenting our case in a coherent manor. But when we are trashed, we will bite back. And we Americans were trashed...Michael

Michael,

I colllect toy soldiers to honor the good guys . . . the Allied troops that fought the Nazi Scum, the brave soldiers who fought against the mass murdering scum. The only reason I have bad guys is to give the brave American, British, Anzac, Canadian and other Allied troops who fought the Nazis and Japs something to shoot at. Nobody on this forum is more proud to be an American than I am, or further from politically correct than I am.

But I am honest enough to admit that our ancestors are no more perfect than those of any other nation, and that we committed our share of attrocities. When Americans are honest with themselves, they recognize that the history fed to us in the public schools and by Hollywood is sanitized B.S. You can't tar every Indian as fair game because of the massacre at Mims, or say it was O.K. for us to break every treaty we reached with them or massacre them because of the first act of aggression against the early colonists in Virginia. If you try to rationalize the deaths of 19 million (99.99% of whom were from utterly different tribes and nations than those that perpetrated these attorcities) on this basis, then you can to say all Germans or even all Europeans should be fair game because of what the Nazis did. The individual politicians, generals, chiefs or other leaders who initiated the massacres of women and children discussed on this thread, and anyone who cheerfully and willingly carried out their policies, are murderous scum. You want to rationalize that Hitler and his henchmen, Stalin, and the Indian Chief behind the Mims Massacre are the worst, but the American politicians and military officers behind Wounded Knee or some of the other Indian Massacres (including Custer, who killed hundreds or women, children and elderly Indians in a village because he was pissed that the Warriors had fled) were justified, go right ahead. But it doesn't take a lawyer to see that this dog just won't hunt.

And the whole the strong have always displaced the weak rationalization works just as well for the Nazis invading Poland as it does for the Europeans displacing the Indians or the Africans. And remember, the Chinese are looking pretty strong right now, but if they manage to invade us down the road, I am pretty sure that as you fight to protect your home and family, you are not going to be thinking, "well, they are stronger, and the strong have always displaced the weak, so this is O.K."

The reason the strong have displaced the weak, is that Humans are not really civilized on anything larger than an individual or at most family scale. Any larger group, led by politicians, or chiefs or kings or mullahs or priests, will always throw morality out the window, or redefine morality to suit its interests. How else do Jews, Christians and Muslims, each of whose bible says "thou shalt not kill" and "thou shalt not steal" spend so much time invading, displacing and killing other people, including other Christians? I say that morality, and true civilization, means using your strength to protect the weak, not to displace them. And that's not political correctness, that's doing the right thing, pure and simple.

America is a great place, a place people from all over the world immigrate to for freedom and opportunity, but you know what, it isn't perfect. Its not being politically correct or unamerican to acknowledge that America isn't perfect. Somebody who loves this Country as much as I do, and as much as I know you do, should want to acknowledge when our Politicians, Generals, Industrialists or other leaders did something wrong, immoral or murderous, and make sure that they don't do it again, because that is the only way this country is going to get better. And you know what, that is not being politically correct, or unamerican, that is being realistic and patriotic.

 

[marco55]

Re: The Little Bighorn

Louis.
Nobody doubts that a lot that has happened in American history that doesn't show us in good light but saying we wiped out 99.9% of the indians is more complex then that.More than 90% were wiped out by disease.Now the europeans of the time didn't really know anything about infectous disease or immunity and didn't know what their coming into contact with the indians would do to them.Tragic and awful that it was it wasn't a deliberate act.And I really think that if the Chinese conquered us I don't think a 100 years later most of them would sit around saying what horrible people they are.For some reason those of us in the west are being brought up with a guilt complex about the sins of our pasts.I don't see other cultures with this problems.I don't see the the Moslem world apoligizing for conquering the middle east and north africa.I don't see China feeling bad for taking over Tibet.This can go on an on.

 

[Louis Badolato]

Re: The Little Bighorn

Marco,

I'm not saying any of us should feel guilty about it, or held accountable for it. Last time I checked we weren't born in the 19th century (unless I'm a lot older than I feel). And if I had killed even 10% of 19 Million Indians I'm pretty sure I would remember.

My point is that (taking your estimate that 90% of the 19 Million Indians killed were killed by disease), the United States Government and its minions were still responsible for wiping out the other 10%, which adds up to 1.9 million if my math is correct. And that is not a good thing to forget. That is something we should remember, and make sure never happens again.

And I don't think my many British friends, from Rob, to Kevin, to Clive, to the many Nevilles, should feel guilty about, or be held accountable for, anything perpetrated in the 19th Century by the minons of the crown either. But those actions are things they should remember, and make sure never happen again.

And I don't think that any of my German friends, like my best friend Hans, or my Japanese friends, like my college buddy Taito Nakagowa, are responsible for anything the Nazis or the Imperial Japanese forces did in 1936 through 1945, as they weren't even born yet. But those actions are things they should remember, and make sure never happen again.

I'm a real believer in the adage that those who forget history are doomed to repeat it. And those who rationalize history to always believe their country is the good guy in everything its done are even more likely to repeat it than those who forget it completely. Doesn't it make you crazy when you read that in Japan and Germany, school kids aren't taught about WWII? Well I'm pretty sure my friends of American Indian decent are pretty upset that a good portion of Americans have no idea that Wounded Knee or the Trail of Tears even happened, or worse yet, believe that the Indians were the bad guys in those stories.

 

[marco55]

Re: The Little Bighorn

Louis,
Don't get me wrong.I have much compassion for those who have been wronged and treated badly.I think the vast majority of the forum thinks this way but we have divided on how we view the people of the past.My view is that since we didn't live in those times and didn't see life through their eyes we shouldn't be so judgmental.I'm not talking about something pure evil like Hitler but the average people and the way they were brought up to view things.One thing I've learned about the people of the past is they were pretty hard and cruel.You would think that with shorter life spans life would be more precious to them but killing to them seemed natural.It was dog eat dog.
Mark

 

[maddadicus]

Re: The Little Bighorn

Michael,

I colllect toy soldiers to honor the good guys . . . the Allied troops that fought the Nazi Scum, the brave soldiers who fought against the mass murdering scum. The only reason I have bad guys is to give the brave American, British, Anzac, Canadian and other Allied troops who fought the Nazis and Japs something to shoot at. Nobody on this forum is more proud to be an American than I am, or further from politically correct than I am.

I am in agreement with you on most of what you say, but if I take a position of absolutism on the " sins of our fathers " NOW being morally repugnant , I might as well throw out all my historical reference books, rather than be PC tainted by association. When I say that I could care less about the whys of war, I mean it. I do not care who started what first. I look at history only in the context of battles or campaigns being a massive war game. I play what ifs concerning movements and battle strategies and casualty counts. I refuse to get bogged down on the guilt trip that some might always want to interject in my narrow view of certain aspects of history. My gaming perspective to history allows me a less societal cluttered look at past events. That is why I started this thread as a strategy only look at the Bighorn battle. I thought we could keep it focused, but it only took a single member , because of PC rhetoric to basically paralyze the majority of other posters who thought it a fun thread. The honest pursuit of history is fast being shouted down by those who would pick and choose what they " feel " is relevant. Michael

 

[Rob]

Re: The Little Bighorn

Marco,

I'm not saying any of us should feel guilty about it, or held accountable for it. Last time I checked we weren't born in the 19th century (unless I'm a lot older than I feel). And if I had killed even 10% of 19 Million Indians I'm pretty sure I would remember.

My point is that (taking your estimate that 90% of the 19 Million Indians killed were killed by disease), the United States Government and its minions were still responsible for wiping out the other 10%, which adds up to 1.9 million if my math is correct. And that is not a good thing to forget. That is something we should remember, and make sure never happens again.

And I don't think my many British friends, from Rob, to Kevin, to Clive, to the many Nevilles, should feel guilty about, or be held accountable for, anything perpetrated in the 19th Century by the minons of the crown either. But those actions are things they should remember, and make sure never happen again.

And I don't think that any of my German friends, like my best friend Hans, or my Japanese friends, like my college buddy Taito Nakagowa, are responsible for anything the Nazis or the Imperial Japanese forces did in 1936 through 1945, as they weren't even born yet. But those actions are things they should remember, and make sure never happen again.

I'm a real believer in the adage that those who forget history are doomed to repeat it. And those who rationalize history to always believe their country is the good guy in everything its done are even more likely to repeat it than those who forget it completely. Doesn't it make you crazy when you read that in Japan and Germany, school kids aren't taught about WWII? Well I'm pretty sure my friends of American Indian decent are pretty upset that a good portion of Americans have no idea that Wounded Knee or the Trail of Tears even happened, or worse yet, believe that the Indians were the bad guys in those stories.

Excellent post Louis,i very much agree.We need to remember to ensure these things don't happen again,but we cannot blame todays generations for these things that happened long before they were around.

I remember i was in the Toy Soldier shop outside Buck Palace some years ago.I got into conversation with a tourist who was admiring all the soldiers in front of him and was a very happy chap.He then said to me 'I do apologise for all the hurt and pain my forefathers caused and i totally understand if you don't want to talk to me'!.I was like 'Are you kidding me'!!

Rob

 

[1879fanatic]

Re: The Little Bighorn

Excellent post Louis,i very much agree.We need to remember to ensure these things don't happen again,but we cannot blame todays generations for these things that happened long before they were around.

I remember i was in the Toy Soldier shop outside Buck Palace some years ago.I got into conversation with a tourist who was admiring all the soldiers in front of him and was a very happy chap.He then said to me 'I do apologise for all the hurt and pain my forefathers caused and i totally understand if you don't want to talk to me'!.I was like 'Are you kidding me'!!

Rob

Rob,
Was he Irish?


Mike

 

[Spitfrnd]

Re: The Little Bighorn

I am in agreement with you on most of what you say, but if I take a position of absolutism on the " sins of our fathers " NOW being morally repugnant , I might as well throw out all my historical reference books, rather than be PC tainted by association. When I say that I could care less about the whys of war, I mean it. I do not care who started what first. I look at history only in the context of battles or campaigns being a massive war game. I play what ifs concerning movements and battle strategies and casualty counts. I refuse to get bogged down on the guilt trip that some might always want to interject in my narrow view of certain aspects of history. My gaming perspective to history allows me a less societal cluttered look at past events. That is why I started this thread as a strategy only look at the Bighorn battle. I thought we could keep it focused, but it only took a single member , because of PC rhetoric to basically paralyze the majority of other posters who thought it a fun thread. The honest pursuit of history is fast being shouted down by those who would pick and choose what they " feel " is relevant. Michael

Et tu Michael? The honest pursuit of history is to confront all the details, rather or not they are pleasant, convenient or consistent with one's own interests or values. War gaming is a wonderful hobby but the view of history it provides is obviously rather limited, rather like the oxymoron of a sterile war. It is fine if you chose to restrict yourself to that perspective but not so fine to remonstrate against those who seek to exchange ideas on the broader context. Recognizing the sins of the past, is not in any way a guilt trip, unless you chose to make it so. As long as you are free to discuss your desired focus on the tactical details, what does it matter if others chose a more expanisive dialogue?

 

[Spitfrnd]

Re: The Little Bighorn

Excellent post Louis,i very much agree.We need to remember to ensure these things don't happen again,but we cannot blame todays generations for these things that happened long before they were around.

I remember i was in the Toy Soldier shop outside Buck Palace some years ago.I got into conversation with a tourist who was admiring all the soldiers in front of him and was a very happy chap.He then said to me 'I do apologise for all the hurt and pain my forefathers caused and i totally understand if you don't want to talk to me'!.I was like 'Are you kidding me'!!

Rob

I completely agree with your post Rob my friend with one caveat. We should only blame today's generations for pretending these things were correct or did not matter.

 

[Rob]

Re: The Little Bighorn

Rob,
Was he Irish?


Mike

Forgot to say he was German didn't I!

Rob

 

[Combat]

Re: The Little Bighorn

Louis.
Nobody doubts that a lot that has happened in American history that doesn't show us in good light but saying we wiped out 99.9% of the indians is more complex then that.More than 90% were wiped out by disease.Now the europeans of the time didn't really know anything about infectous disease or immunity and didn't know what their coming into contact with the indians would do to them.Tragic and awful that it was it wasn't a deliberate act.

Actually the Brits did try: http://www.nativeweb.org/pages/legal/amherst/lord_jeff.html It wasn't the intent that was lacking, but the tools and understanding how to implement.

 

[pugio]

when cro-magnon man wiped out the neanderthals, was that genicide. when the iroquois tried to wipe-out the huron nation (99.9% complete) over beaver pelts/land grab, is that genecide... mankind is just a nasty beast...

 

[Louis Badolato]

when cro-magnon man wiped out the neanderthals, was that genicide. when the iroquois tried to wipe-out the huron nation (99.9% complete) over beaver pelts/land grab, is that genecide... mankind is just a nasty beast...

Yes . . . and Yes . . . and resoundingly Yes to the nasty beast part.

 

[mk26gmls]

Yes . . . and Yes . . . and resoundingly Yes to the nasty beast part.

Yes, mankind is a nasty beast. And some are nastier than others....

As long as man draws breath, this will continue to happen.

Not to end on a sour note, "Have a good day everyone!"

 

[Spitfrnd]

when cro-magnon man wiped out the neanderthals, was that genicide. when the iroquois tried to wipe-out the huron nation (99.9% complete) over beaver pelts/land grab, is that genecide... mankind is just a nasty beast...

It was and he can be. There is hope with reason.

 

[Harrytheheid]

I suppose I need to go through this entire thread again, but there's two points I'd like to make already;

1/ I collect miniature figurines as a hobby. I don't collect the things to "honour" anyone, as I consider this to be a somewhat bizarre concept.

2/ I couldn't care less what the "racist colonial 19th Century British" did - to whomsoever. And don't see why I ought to get all apologetic about it either.
In fact, I don't give a flying fig what the Bad Brits did in the 18th or 17th century either - or the 20th century for that matter.
Why should I, as a miniature figurine collector, be subjected to posts that subliminally suggest I ought to feel guilty for events that I wasn't present at, or would've had no influence over even if I had?

Seems to me, there's a lot being said between the lines here that isn't being said out loud - cos of fear - of one thing or the other.
Either say what you really mean, or don't say it at all if you think some poor wee super-sensitive soul who hasn't grown up yet is going to get all upset by being presented with the truth.

The bottom line is every country - and I mean every country represented on this forum - has been involved to a greater or lesser extent in what could be described as shameful episodes in their history.

So what...???

Regards
Harry

 

[UKReb]

I suppose I need to go through this entire thread again, but there's two points I'd like to make already;

1/ I collect miniature figurines as a hobby. I don't collect the things to "honour" anyone, as I consider this to be a somewhat bizarre concept.

2/ I couldn't care less what the "racist colonial 19th Century British" did - to whomsoever. And don't see why I ought to get all apologetic about it either.
In fact, I don't give a flying fig what the Bad Brits did in the 18th or 17th century either - or the 20th century for that matter.
Why should I, as a miniature figurine collector, be subjected to posts that subliminally suggest I ought to feel guilty for events that I wasn't present at, or would've had no influence over even if I had?

Seems to me, there's a lot being said between the lines here that isn't being said out loud - cos of fear - of one thing or the other.
Either say what you really mean, or don't say it at all if you think some poor wee super-sensitive soul who hasn't grown up yet is going to get all upset by being presented with the truth.

The bottom line is every country - and I mean every country represented on this forum - has been involved to a greater or lesser extent in what could be described as shameful episodes in their history.

So what...???

Regards
Harry

Wow! Harry a whiff of truth there old son but prepare for incoming

Reb

 

[lancer]

Well said, Harry. Couldn't agree more. TS collecting IS just a hobby and they are just TOYS (although some might feel it is a sort of art and justly so to a degree). I do not feel guilty about my country and it's history and no PC crap will make me feel guilty. This is my hobby and I will attach no deeper meaning to it than that. It is fun and when it stops being fun or interesting I will find something else but since I have been doing this for 50 years I suspect this will not happen. Now, let me duck the bricks, also. -- lancer