Gettysburg.So where DID Captain Johnston go????? (2 Viewers)

[Rob]

So Lee sends the Captain on a recon mission to see what is south of the round tops and report back. He returns saying there are no Union troops there, so how did he get it so wrong and where did he go???

Rob

 

[braddinpa]

It is hard to speculate. But during the AM walk on the 150th (which was specifically about where he went). Ranger Troy Harmon (good guy and quite the author), speculated that he went a little bit south of Big Round Top based on what he said. He also ran into some good or bad luck because of the timing of his recon. He missed portions of Humphrey's division advancing up the Emmitsburg Road. In volume 23 of Gettysburg magazine there is an excellent article about his recon. Although this guy reaches the conclusion nobody will ever know where exactly he went. But he believes he never reached Little Round Top.

I personally don't believe he reached little Round Top. If he would have, he would have seen the 3rd Corp north of little round top as well as some 12th Corp still at little round top about to be pull back to Culps hill.

 

[Rob]

It is hard to speculate. But during the AM walk on the 150th (which was specifically about where he went). Ranger Troy Harmon (good guy and quite the author), speculated that he went a little bit south of Big Round Top based on what he said. He also ran into some good or bad luck because of the timing of his recon. He missed portions of Humphrey's division advancing up the Emmitsburg Road. In volume 23 of Gettysburg magazine there is an excellent article about his recon. Although this guy reaches the conclusion nobody will ever know where exactly he went. But he believes he never reached Little Round Top.

I personally don't believe he reached little Round Top. If he would have, he would have seen the 3rd Corp north of little round top as well as some 12th Corp still at little round top about to be pull back to Culps hill.

It is a puzzle, I was wondering if there were any other hills akin to LRT or BRT anywhere else in the area because didn't he describe going up some sort of height and not finding any union troops??

Have you read 'The Last Invasion' Brad, am about half way through now and am totally engrossed by it.

Cheers
Rob

 

[UKReb]

Rob

Johnston carried out one of the strangest and in my opinion the most inept reconnaissance of the war. Worth remembering-although it doesn't reveal anymore than we know- that he was accompanied by one of Longstreet's engineers Major John J Clarke but history does not record his report on exactly where they went or what he saw on that scout.

Lee told Johnston at 4.00 A.M. on the second morning to investigate the Federals' left flank. The party rode from Lee's HQ near the Chambersburg Pike southward behind Seminary Ridge to a crossing of Willoughby Run, then eastward toward the Peach Orchard, then south again along Seminary Ridge and across the Emmitsburg Road. And in Johnston's words "I got up on the slopes of round top, where I had a commanding view". On re-crossing the Emmitsburg Road they waited in hiding until a small Federal cavalry patrol passed by (obviously Buford's men who were still in position on the immediate left flank at that time in the morning). According to Johnston they were the only Yankees they saw on their three hour reconnoitre.

When he returned to Lee he was asked "Did you get there?". He assured Lee he had. But as Brad has stated in his post- if he had gone to where he told Lee he had went, there is no way his party could have failed to see at least some trace of the better part of two Yankee infantry corps and two brigades of Yankee cavalry. LRT was occupied by two regiments of Geary's Twelfth Corps division until well after daylight on July 2nd, before they departed for Culp's Hill. Sickle's Third Corps were camped immediately north and west of LRT and at the same time Hancock's Second Corps were passing behind both Round Tops to its position on Cemetery Ridge. None of these units had orders to operate silently, so if not seen, they surely would have been heard during those quiet early morning hours. And don't forget they all had pickets well out and on alert for any Rebel movement.

I believe the answer to the mystery seems to be that Johnston did not go as far as to climb LRT and in his recollections, embellished his role rather than confess his failings and Clarke remained silent on the expedition not wanting to decry or denounce a fellow engineer officer. Furthermore I also believe that what Johnston didn't realise at the time he reported back to Lee was that based on his information Lee then used it as the crux of his whole battle plan for the second day. The old man was obviously thinking he had a repeat situation of his previous victory at Chancellorsville when he acted on Stuart's intelligence that Hooker's whole flank was in the air. Here was his chance to roll up another unsuspecting Yankee flank hanging in the air. The British observer Colonel Fremantle was in attendance when Johnston reported back and then heard Lee turn to Longstreet and say "I think you had better move on, for we now have a chance to whip the enemy".

As Lee's plans accelerated Johnston remained dumb as to now admit any doubts on his observations of the Federal dispositions would be tantamount to....well...... you get my drift. Yes indeed one of the worst reconnoitres of the whole war.

Bob

 

[Rob]

Rob

Johnston carried out one of the strangest and in my opinion the most inept reconnaissance of the war. Worth remembering-although it doesn't reveal anymore than we know- that he was accompanied by one of Longstreet's engineers Major John J Clarke but history does not record his report on exactly where they went or what he saw on that scout.

Lee told Johnston at 4.00 A.M. on the second morning to investigate the Federals' left flank. The party rode from Lee's HQ near the Chambersburg Pike southward behind Seminary Ridge to a crossing of Willoughby Run, then eastward toward the Peach Orchard, then south again along Seminary Ridge and across the Emmitsburg Road. And in Johnston's words "I got up on the slopes of round top, where I had a commanding view". On re-crossing the Emmitsburg Road they waited in hiding until a small Federal cavalry patrol passed by (obviously Buford's men who were still in position on the immediate left flank at that time in the morning). According to Johnston they were the only Yankees they saw on their three hour reconnoitre.

When he returned to Lee he was asked "Did you get there?". He assured Lee he had. But as Brad has stated in his post- if he had gone to where he told Lee he had went, there is no way his party could have failed to see at least some trace of the better part of two Yankee infantry corps and two brigades of Yankee cavalry. LRT was occupied by two regiments of Geary's Twelfth Corps division until well after daylight on July 2nd, before they departed for Culp's Hill. Sickle's Third Corps were camped immediately north and west of LRT and at the same time Hancock's Second Corps were passing behind both Round Tops to its position on Cemetery Ridge. None of these units had orders to operate silently, so if not seen, they surely would have been heard during those quiet early morning hours. And don't forget they all had pickets well out and on alert for any Rebel movement.

I believe the answer to the mystery seems to be that Johnston did not go as far as to climb LRT and in his recollections, embellished his role rather than confess his failings and Clarke remained silent on the expedition not wanting to decry or denounce a fellow engineer officer. Furthermore I also believe that what Johnston didn't realise at the time he reported back to Lee was that based on his information Lee then used it as the crux of his whole battle plan for the second day. The old man was obviously thinking he had a repeat situation of his previous victory at Chancellorsville when he acted on Stuart's intelligence that Hooker's whole flank was in the air. Here was his chance to roll up another unsuspecting Yankee flank hanging in the air. The British observer Colonel Fremantle was in attendance when Johnston reported back and then heard Lee turn to Longstreet and say "I think you had better move on, for we now have a chance to whip the enemy".

As Lee's plans accelerated Johnston remained dumb as to now admit any doubts on his observations of the Federal dispositions would be tantamount to....well...... you get my drift. Yes indeed one of the worst reconnoitres of the whole war.

Bob

Thanks as always for your view on this Bob. It does seem strangely inept doesn't it. Hard to imagine he went where he said he did and only came across a four man patrol?? As you say at that hour even if he didn't see the Union movements surely he would have heard them. Lee must have wondered what on earth was up with his mounted experts at Gettysburg, Stuart AWOL and Johnston giving what appears to be a report that makes no sense at all.

Must say on a different note with the ' Last Invasion ' I am just learning of all the different groups of pro and anti McClellan officers in the Union army and who despised who etc etc. Totally fascinating read.

Cheers

Rob

 

[braddinpa]

I can take a few pics of where Harman thinks he got. And it is logical. Both Harman and Powell don't believe he was inept. It was a series of luck (missing part of Humphrey's division advancing up the emmitsburg road) and getting to the wrong hill. Harman makes a very convincing argument.

 

[Dragoon]

Thanks as always for your view on this Bob. It does seem strangely inept doesn't it. Hard to imagine he went where he said he did and only came across a four man patrol?? As you say at that hour even if he didn't see the Union movements surely he would have heard them. Lee must have wondered what on earth was up with his mounted experts at Gettysburg, Stuart AWOL and Johnston giving what appears to be a report that makes no sense at all.

Must say on a different note with the ' Last Invasion ' I am just learning of all the different groups of pro and anti McClellan officers in the Union army and who despised who etc etc. Totally fascinating read.

Cheers

Rob

Rob, you brought up another fascinating aspect of the whole Gettysburg campaign - all the infighting in the Army of the Potomac. Pro McClellan, pro Hooker, political party favorites like Sickels - Poor Gordon Meade had no time to change things to his liking. I believe he even kept on Hooker's chief of staff (Butterfield) out of expediency. No wonder he leaned so heavily on men he knew and trusted like Reynolds and Hancock as the campaign unfolded.

 

[jazzeum]

McClellan was extremely popular with the common soldier and when it was rumored that Hooker was to be replaced and the rumor went around that McClellan was to be brought back, the men were keen with anticipation.

Part of pro and anti Mac is personality, personal politics and politics. Mac was not in favor of the Emancipation Proclamation, etc. whereas others strongly were. Pro and anti McClellan supporters still fight it out, but this time in the pages of history.

 

[jazzeum]

Guelzo believes that although Johnston was no stranger at reconnaissance he was on unmarked ground in a state with which he was not familiar, lacking maps to guide him. He concludes that Johnston did climb a hill that morning and thought it was LRT. Thus, it might be possible that he had no failings to confess to as he may have thought he was at the right place.

 

[Rob]

Guelzo believes that although Johnston was no stranger at reconnaissance he was on unmarked ground in a state with which he was not familiar, lacking maps to guide him. He concludes that Johnston did climb a hill that morning and thought it was LRT. Thus, it might be possible that he had no failings to confess to as he may have thought he was at the right place.

Brad, have just been reading about LRT and it must be the first time I've read an author downplay the action up there, Guelzo does not disrespect or belittle the action on LRT but thinks it more of a sideshow than an almost War changing moment that it has been thought of over the decades. He also thinks Chamberlain down the queue when it comes to handing out of credit for that action. Interesting view and I wondered what you guys thought?

Rob

 

[braddinpa]

As late as 6 am there were units of Geary's division (147th PA). on the northern slope of Little Round. I do believe Johnston thought he reached LRT. But like Harmon. I think he was actually south and ended up on one of the hills South of LRT.

 

[jazzeum]

Brad, have just been reading about LRT and it must be the first time I've read an author downplay the action up there, Guelzo does not disrespect or belittle the action on LRT but thinks it more of a sideshow than an almost War changing moment that it has been thought of over the decades. He also thinks Chamberlain down the queue when it comes to handing out of credit for that action. Interesting view and I wondered what you guys thought?

Rob

Rob,

I think he believes that too much attention has been paid to Chamberlain and that the exploits of his regiment have been over magnified as his holding onto LRT was not the decisive act of the Second Day. My recollection is that until the movie came out not as many knew of him as they do now.

Guelzo also doesn't seem to think too much of Chamberlain over all; seems him as more of an attention grabber, self promoter.

 

[braddinpa]

Chamberlain had the advantage of living through the war and living to a fairly old age and was articulate. Garry Adelman makes a strong point in a small book that even if the confederates had taken little round top. They could not have held it. They didn't have enough ammunition. They were exhausted, and large numbers of union troops were desending on that area and the northern slop of LRT is not as steep as the western side.

http://www.gettysburgdaily.com/?page_id=7119

 

[Rob]

Rob,

I think he believes that too much attention has been paid to Chamberlain and that the exploits of his regiment have been over magnified as his holding onto LRT was not the decisive act of the Second Day. My recollection is that until the movie came out not as many knew of him as they do now.

Guelzo also doesn't seem to think too much of Chamberlain over all; seems him as more of an attention grabber, self promoter.

No he doesn't does he Brad, mind you he thinks even less of Sickles doesn't he?!{eek3} 'Chicken brained ' was one term !

Rob

 

[braddinpa]

Hey Rob, I forgot to upload the picture showing the approximate location of the recon route. (one of the suspected routes). There are a few. I will do that in a few hours. Thanks! Brad

 

[braddinpa]

Ok, here is the correct pic with Little Round Top and Big RT and the area of the Farnsworth charge

 

[Phantom Warrior]

View attachment 133443 Ok, here is the correct pic with Little Round Top and Big RT and the area of the Farnsworth charge

I don't know where Johnston went, but it strikes me as odd that he didn't describe the ground. LRT was distinctive in that the side Johnston would have viewed was completely deforested by logging. As an engineer, it's something he would likely have noted. He should also have seen all the troop activity on LRT. I suspect he went to the wrong hill and did not realize it at the time. If I am viewing Brad's photo correctly, you can see the bare slope of LRT in the background.

Terry

 

[braddinpa]

Exactly right Terry. as late as 6 am there were two union regiments on the Northern slope of LRT. Although he always insisted they made it to little round top. I think the most logical explanation is he went on the wrong hill. For example. One of the clues he mentions is that on is way back he passed through where the "cavalry fight" occurred. It has always been assumed that he described Farnsworth Charge (which would put him close to little round top. But some have suggested he was referring to the cav fight further south. I guess that is what makes Gettysburg so interesting. Lots of mystery's.

Brad

I don't know where Johnston went, but it strikes me as odd that he didn't describe the ground. LRT was distinctive in that the side Johnston would have viewed was completely deforested by logging. As an engineer, it's something he would likely have noted. He should also have seen all the troop activity on LRT. I suspect he went to the wrong hill and did not realize it at the time. If I am viewing Brad's photo correctly, you can see the bare slope of LRT in the background.

Terry

 

[braddinpa]

In fairness to Johnston. Although from a distance on Seminary Ridge. Little Round top is clearly visable. When you actually get to the location of the Round Tops, it is confusing with small spurs and I could imagine with some morning fog thrown in there. You could get confused where you were.

 

[Rob]

Hey Rob, I forgot to upload the picture showing the approximate location of the recon route. (one of the suspected routes). There are a few. I will do that in a few hours. Thanks! Brad

Thanks Brad!

Rob