Global Warming: Fact or Fiction? (1 Viewer)

Global Warming: Fact or Fiction?


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All my experiences living in the New York City area tell me its true -- our climate has gotten a ton warmer over the last 40 years, and we get a lot less snow. When I was a kid we played ice hockey on frozen ponds every winter, and I haven't seen anyone skate outside on a pond in 15 years.

However, I am undecided, because I saw an overlay of average world temperatures since 1900 on solar activity over the same time, and they matched almost perfectly. So things may be getting warmer, but it may have little or nothing to do with green house gases, and everything to do with increased solar activity.

That being said, I do not rule out the greenhouse gases and destruction of the ozone layer as causing or substantially adding to the problem. Maybe temperatures always reflect solar activity, but they have uniformly increased because of polution.

When you talk about NY getting warmer -- speak for yourself -- I live upstate NY, and I thinks it's just as cold, just as snowy, just as icy and just as windy as all the other cold winters we've had. The proof is -- my heating bills sure aren't going down.

Dick
 
Nicely said Tony! Yep. It's a fact. And it’s being caused by six billion hairless apes running around eating, breathing, CONSUMING, reproducing and destroying ecological systems left right and centre. In high school science class I'm sure some of you have seen under a microscope that bacteria in a dish will keep multiplying until they all die. Humans aren’t any different it seems - there's twice as many people munching off the earth today as there was in 1960, when many of you were already walking and talking. It's time to adjust to this new reality - things are very different than they used to be.

For those that want "proof", you'll never have it in time because proof can only come through the scientific method. The scientific method relies on running experiments. Experiments in turn depend on the ability to compare at least two sample subjects for cause and effect, with one of the samples being held as a control where nothing changes (i.e. placebo). The problem is, we only have ONE planet earth (and one atmosphere etc.) on which to run our experiment and we can't hold it still for a second in order to PROVE definitively whether humans are the primary cause or not.

Instead we have to rely on the comprehensive historical research, smaller scale experimentation and future modeling that has been conducted by the world's top scientists for the last 50 years. No space to go into it here, the particulars are easy enough to find on the web.

So what it will come down to is a test of faith, of how much we're willing to gamble. On one hand, we can keep going as before with our polluting lifestyles, deluded into believing that the earth is not warming just like getting off our dependence on Middle East oil has nothing to do with stopping terrorism. If we're right, we won't have had to make any sacrifices and we can continue on with our ultra-consumerist lifestyle that is, by the way, also rapidly depleting the world’s finite oil supply (the basis of industrial civilization) while not making us any happier (according to surveys, the happiness of the average person in the Western world peaked in the 1960s).

If we're wrong, it will literally mean the end of the earth as we know it. And this is key to determining where you stand on this issue - Al Gore for all his pontificating did not reveal the ultimate consequences of global warming. To do that, you need to read a book like "Under a Green Sky" by Peter Ward, a NASA scientist.

Because if you’ve been to a casino, you know that how much you're willing to gamble depends on what you judge the stakes to be. If you don't know the likely consequences, you can't make an informed decision.

Basically, in the short term (say from now to 40 years out) higher temperatures will likely "only" mean more super storms and forest fires. The extinction of millions of species worldwide. The spread of infectious diseases like malaria into nothern latitudes. Water shortages due to the drying up of glaciers. Rising sea levels submerging island nations and some coastal cities. This is where Al Gore stopped.

In the medium term (40-120 years out), the climate conditions that humans have enjoyed since the start of the agricultural revolution come to an end leading to the failure of the world's food crops and mass starvation. Drinking water shortages everywhere. Mass migration of refugees. Wars over resources. The breakdown of global order and nation states. Mass dieoff of people and animals.

Yet while half of the people on earth may be dead, the end of planet earth as we know it doesn't happen until the long term (120 years and further out). Then we get things like mass oceanic dieoff coming to a head which leads to the formation of hydrogen-sulfide gas in the ocean. This begins to rise to the surface. It turns the sky green. And great clouds of this deadly gas spread out across the land, killing everything they come in contact with. There will be nowhere for our children to hide. The planet earth that you wake up to every day will be irrevocably changed and it is doutbful whether the human race will be a part of its future.

This is exactly what scientists theorized happened in the Jurassic mass extinction (as well as most other extinctions when a comet wasn't involved). As the great supercontinent Pangaea broke up and continents shifted, extreme volcanic activity created greenhouse gas emissions that led to the aforementioned hydrogen sulfide clouds covering the landscape. So many billions of oceanic organisms died at one place and time that they didn't have time to decompose normally. Instead they became fossilized. And this is why we have oil deposits in Saudi Arabia - the Ghawar field was the site of an ocean shelf in Jurassic times.

See, for the longest time we weren't sure how or why oil was formed - now we're beginning to realize that fossil fuels and global warming are intrinsically linked. Global warming creates the mass oceanic dieoff necessary to create fossil fuels which trap carbon underground. Then something comes along and releases the carbon (like us) and that creates global warming. What cools the earth down? When enough plant life re-emerges on earth again after millions of years to reabsorb the carbon. In this way the planet's temperature and climate have passed through cycles depending on whether the carbon is in the ground, or the air. That's how the machine works. Ironically, by burning fossil fuel and unleashing the trapped carbon we are creating the conditions for the formation of oil all over again. Unfortunately, we are unlikely to survive as a civilization long enough to enjoy it. Perhaps the carbon in the oil of the future will come from you and me!

Of course, like I started off by saying, this is all theory based on the best science in the world. If we continue emitting carbon we honestly don't really know what will happen. But we know some of what could happen, based on upheavels and extinctions that have shaken our planet before. Some of these events may happen sooner and some later, and so will many events we haven't even forseen yet.

If you want almost irrefutable evidence (not proof) that global warming is occurring, just check out what is happening in the Arctic and Antarctic (it's what convinced me). They are warmer than they have ever been in recorded human history and great chunks are melting into the ocean as we speak. Our governments are in a frantic rush to claim the newly revealed mineral deposits up there, as well as the northwest passage. Yes indeed, something is afoot. But it seems it’s easier for us to just glide with the times than think about why it's suddenly happening so quickly (when there just so happens to be a doubling of the human population on earth within a 40 year period).

Again, it ultimately comes down to, how much are you willing to risk, to gamble? We won’t have the definitive answer to our little experiment until global warming has progressed so far that it is impossible to stop. Is keeping our wasteful lifestyle today worth the end of the world as we know it for ALL our children to come? If this was a war, we wouldn’t be having this discussion – the enemy would be plain to see and we would be readily willing to sacrifice whatever was necessary to achieve ultimate victory. Well preventing the future that I described above IS the war of the 21st century, and what makes it nice is that for once in human history, we’re all on the same side, whether we acknowledge it or not. :cool:

Yo Troopers very nicely put. The old saying "You can't see the trees for the Wood" But they can see the trees, but they don't care as long as they are making $$$$. I think the human race pushed the self destruct button some 30 years back, and the clock is starting to click a little faster everyday, everyone wants to bury their head in the sand hoping it will go away, they cannot see whats starring them in the face, what's happening with the Glaziers and the ice caps. We haven't had a summer for three years now in Ireland, and we don't have any snow, think some 10 year olds in the UK have never seen snow, maybe the odd inch, so don't try and tell me nothings changing. But as a young man I always said the human race would self destruct, people used to laugh, but I dont hear them laughing anymore. The clock is clicking, and cannot be turned off, because no one knows how to turn it off. To many $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ to make so what the hell.
Bernard.
 
I think we are causing the world some serious I,lls
[But the term global warming makes me cringe a bit as it sounds like the latest catchphrase]
spend 15 minutes in the midday summer sun in good old NZ with no sun protection and convince me otherwise,
But weather or not we are capable of doing anything about it is another kettle of fish.
The current responces sound more like another tax than a solution which
makes me a little skeptical about anything changing for the better.
 
Vandilay

Glad you mentioned the sun in NZ. I have traveled well and been lucky enough to have touched foot in many continents but i have to say that i have NEVER felt the radiate heat that the NZ sun gives off. A couple of my Kiwi mates tell me that this also has changed over the years.

I got off of the plane in 2001 and it was like having a the sun magnifying through a magnifying glass zap my bold head!!

I have been told a huge part of the hole in the Ozone is over NZ! boy it sure felt like it!!

The problem with the quote Global warming is it has been messed around with by the Media!! like the quote of Credit Crunch!

Global warming to me comes under the global responsibility of all.......its not about snow, no snow, sun or no sun. Its about pollution and what we are doing to the earth! and again trust me i don't grow my own veg and wear sandals!! so no echo worrier hear!

Tony
 
Tony I,d have to agree , when we where kids you might put sunscreen on once a day.then in and out of the swimming pool all day long
And at worst you might be a little red on the shoulders.

Now smear sunscreen everywhere on the hour and you can still get fried ,
In mid summer the best word to describe it is fierce.
So something has changed in a fairly short space of time.

I just have no faith in our esteemed leaders to do anything meaningfull
except harp on about carbon foot prints as an excuse to drag more money from joe public.

slip slop slap as they say
cheers Rob
 
Well, I would think that an increase in the temperatures in those areas would have an effect on the apparent length of winter, don't you think?
 
Global Warming? Yes it is happenning...but in which context?

1. Because of human's carbon foot prints resulting in green gas effect (SUVs, gas pollution, etc.). Scientists reported that other planets are showing signs of warming...and there are no SUV's there

2. The Sun is hotter than usual (per NASA and other scientific reports)

3. Global warming is cyclical (in 1972 scientists said we are moving towards global cooling

I'll go for #2 & #3

Here in AZ it's always hot, global warming here I guess
 
I think it is a natural progression, after all in the long distant pass the Arctic was a tropical jungle so we are told. The unfortunate thing is the political aspect. On this side of the pond the government appear to be using it as an excuse to raise tax revenue. They claim recycling as part of the solution and set targets to be met. At local level all the little Hitlers come boiling out of the woodwork to impose all sorts of regulations as to when rubbish bins are to be put out and where, what type of rubbish must be put into what type of container and, of course, heavy fines for all who do not conform. There is even a move afoot to put computor chips in all vehicles to monitor journeys and estimate mileage so that individuals can then be charged on distance travelled. What they do not say is that it also monitors who goes where. I for one object to this form of Big Brother oversight and there are many others of like mind. Whether or not global warming is man made or a natural occurance is something that cannot be assessed, no two scientists agree on the cause or the solution. Maybe it is just evolution, but one thing is for sure if I put a brown glass bottle into a green glass container it will not affect whatever happens.
 
I think it is a natural progression, after all in the long distant pass the Arctic was a tropical jungle so we are told. The unfortunate thing is the political aspect. On this side of the pond the government appear to be using it as an excuse to raise tax revenue. They claim recycling as part of the solution and set targets to be met. At local level all the little Hitlers come boiling out of the woodwork to impose all sorts of regulations as to when rubbish bins are to be put out and where, what type of rubbish must be put into what type of container and, of course, heavy fines for all who do not conform. There is even a move afoot to put computor chips in all vehicles to monitor journeys and estimate mileage so that individuals can then be charged on distance travelled. What they do not say is that it also monitors who goes where. I for one object to this form of Big Brother oversight and there are many others of like mind. Whether or not global warming is man made or a natural occurance is something that cannot be assessed, no two scientists agree on the cause or the solution. Maybe it is just evolution, but one thing is for sure if I put a brown glass bottle into a green glass container it will not affect whatever happens.
Well said mate.
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I kwow where I would tell them to put that chip.:rolleyes:
 
Change is not the problem. The rate of change is the problem. Given sufficient time life can evolve to adapt to new conditions. The Cretaceous was 10-15 degrees warmer than today. Given insufficient time life simply dies off.

Climate is fragile and only requires a nudge to send it down a path of dramatic change. The problem is the feedback loops (positve/negative). The easiest positive feedback example to understand is sea ice. When it's present most of the energy of the sunlight is reflected back into space. When it is not present most of the energy from the sunlight is absorbed by the ocean. This is turn melts more ice and the pace of the warming increases exponentially. More insidious potential positive feedbacks exist in the form of trapped methane gases in permafrost and ocean bottoms. Given sufficient warming these greenhouse gases may begin to release into the atmosphere causing further warming and so on and so on.

Based on this it only requires humanity to change the atmosphere sufficiently to raise the temperature a little bit to reach the point where the postive feedback loops start kicking in. After that point the climate is like a run away train and will continue to warm until it reaches a point of equilibrium some time in the future. There will be nothing we can do to stop it once we reach this point.

Climate has certainly played it's part in the numerous mass extinctions throughout Earth's history. As noted above it isn't so much the change that's the problem but the rate at which it happens. Unfortunately the rate of change we are seeing today is more rapid than those associated with the greatest extinction event of the them all, the End Permian event. With the current rate of species loss one could even make an argument that we're in an extinction event right now (the Anthropocene Extinction Event) which certainly includes other factors along with climate change.

Much like our difficulty in understanding things that move very fast such as objects moving at relativisitc speeds humans aren't good at noticing things that move really slowly, say over the course of a human lifetime. It's not surprising that we fail to see the forest for the trees. Unfortunately our failure to truly grasp our situation leads us into a case of collective denial where every refute of the evidence before us is latched on to as a way of having to avoid reality.
 
....Much like our difficulty in understanding things that move very fast such as objects moving at relativisitc speeds humans aren't good at noticing things that move really slowly, say over the course of a human lifetime. It's not surprising that we fail to see the forest for the trees. Unfortunately our failure to truly grasp our situation leads us into a case of collective denial where every refute of the evidence before us is latched on to as a way of having to avoid reality.
Well what reality would that be exactly? If the failure to accept the fact that humans are primarily or even significantly responsible for the temperature change was not supported by the significant research and theories of many well established and internationally recognized scientists you might have a point; that is not the case here. Even among those scientests that proffer a human caused contribution, there is little agreement on an effective and workable solution. Long term, the evolution to a non carbon fueled society will occur but in the short term, it simply will not and even if it did, I have yet to see a reasonable projection to the effect that it would alter the current thread. That seems to be a reality which is ignored by those who propose the most drastic social changes.
 
If the failure to accept the fact that humans are primarily or even significantly responsible for the temperature change was not supported by the significant research and theories of many well established and internationally recognized scientists you might have a point; that is not the case here. Even among those scientests that proffer a human caused contribution, there is little agreement on an effective and workable solution.

Sorry, but since I work in the environmental field I can call your bluff on this and say everything you wrote above is completely false. There isn't a major reputable scientific organization left in the world that disputes that humans are significantly contributing to global warming. Show me one and I'll give you $100. Furthermore, we are literally overflowing with effective and workable solutions if the politicians would stop listening to people who don't have a clue what they're talking about. People, if you're going to offer your opinion as fact, please read some books on the subject and not just FOX news. You're literally playing with a fire you don't even begin to understand.
 
Sorry, but since I work in the environmental field I can call your bluff on this and say everything you wrote above is completely false. There isn't a major reputable scientific organization left in the world that disputes that humans are significantly contributing to global warming. Show me one and I'll give you $100. Furthermore, we are literally overflowing with effective and workable solutions if the politicians would stop listening to people who don't have a clue what they're talking about. People, if you're going to offer your opinion as fact, please read some books on the subject and not just FOX news. You're literally playing with a fire you don't even begin to understand.

I suppose the problem is politicians will say and do what they think will keep them in office. That's why you get them talking out of both sides of their mouth. On the one hand they talk about cutting carbon emissions and in their next breath they are talking about how to keep gasoline prices artificially low. Do people not see the contradiction?

Fossil fuels need to be replaced for many more reasons than climate change. Even if you don't believe in climate change or anthropogenic causes of climate change surely you must see the folly of basing an entire civilization around a single non-renewable resource (fossil fuels) with no alternatives. Why is it people are so passionate about fuel prices? Because they have no alternative and they are forced to pay no matter what the price is. Where else does the economy work this way? If I am unhappy with one companies widget quallity I can consider another. If one company charges too much I can look at a competing product. Even with food production there is choice and alternatives. With fossil fuels we have no such option. It's take it or leave it. I can't say forget that gasoline car I'll take an E85 vehicle or a PHEV (plug-in hybrid electric vehicle) or some other alternative energy vehicle. Choice and alternatives make our economy work and keep prices in check. I often hear people raving against oil companies, OPEC, the Saudi's etc. They are the last people who want prices to be this high. Why? Because it makes people furious and gets them thinking about alternatives.

We need to focus all of our efforts on creating alternatives to fossil fuels. It is an undertaking that will take decades and the sooner we start the less painful it will be. Sooner or later oil production will peak (some people say we are already there). Contrary to many dismissive comments Peak Oil is not about running out of oil. It is about reaching a point of maximum production in barrels/unit of time (i.e. day). Once this is reached oil can't be produced fast enough to meet demand and the price soars. There is the potential, if ignored, to severely affect the world ecomomy. A large percentage of the world's oil comes from a relatively small number of giant and super giant oil field such as Ghawar in Saudi Arabia. Once these mature and head into terminal decline it is unlikely that any new sources will be able to fully replace them. Remember, it's not about how much oil is in the ground (reserves) it's about how fast it can be produced.

Weaning ourselves off fossil fuels has benefits that go far beyond climate change. I don't think anyone will argue that reducing reliance on foreign energy is a bad thing. Hand in hand with this is the reduced political and military requirement to protect that foreign energy along with the supply routes which antagonizes so many.
 
Sorry, but since I work in the environmental field I can call your bluff on this and say everything you wrote above is completely false. There isn't a major reputable scientific organization left in the world that disputes that humans are significantly contributing to global warming. Show me one and I'll give you $100. Furthermore, we are literally overflowing with effective and workable solutions if the politicians would stop listening to people who don't have a clue what they're talking about. People, if you're going to offer your opinion as fact, please read some books on the subject and not just FOX news. You're literally playing with a fire you don't even begin to understand.
Oh I understand it quite well and sadly I also understand enviromental wolf crying; I have to deal with that in my field fairly often. As for scientific organizations, I don't recall saying anything about them. To me, independent scientists are just fine if they are trained and unbiased; the second part most of your organizations have some difficulty with these days with the political pressure engendered by the alarmist and less informed media. Let us just say if I could put you on the stand we would find out how much you could prove and how much you wish you could prove. They are not the same. I would especially be interested in those effective and workable solutions; not to mention the social cost they would entail. I am not sure what books you are reading but I can imagine. I have read a few myself over the years so if you want to preach to me, please get ordained.;):)
 
"Let us just say if I could put you on the stand we would find out how much you could prove and how much you wish you could prove. "

My dear friend Spit, You of all persons, should know that a witness stand does not enter into the proof equation. The jury room is the place to sort it all out, unless you've been inclined to deal with "the judge" as the trier. This climate change is in the jury room as to why. However, the crime has taken place which leads us to the gathering of peers. The glove may have shrunk from being soaked in blood, but it does fit! Mike
 
Why in HECK is the subject on this Forum. What does this have to do with toy soldiers?

I resist joining in the fray because this subject leads no where quickly and frankly is as volatile as religion and politics. Yes, this subject is exceedingly political and like "beauty" the answer is in the "eye of the beholder".

Let's redirect our passions to this hobby and the enjoyment of it.

Carlos
 
I'll second Carlos. Despite being an issue close to my heart and one I think about every day, I sure as heck was not going to start a thread on this froum specifically to debate global warming because it's a no brainer it would just lead to controversy. And I resisted joining in but after reading three pages of denial I got frustrated and felt like I had to to provide some sort of balanced perspective here.

Well everyone knows where I stand so I think I've said enough. In 50 years we'll know which side was right. For now it comes down to whether you are risk averse (aka prudent aka wise), or whether you like to gamble your kid's inheritence on the slim chance it turns out to be a false alarm. In that sense debating climate change is like religion - a question of which viewpoint do you put your faith in. :)

P.S. Spitfrnd, the issue of proof isn't clear cut like it used to be (or was it ever?). Look up the "Precautionary Principle". In international law it is gaining legal standing now. ;)
 

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