Goring: Hitler Paladin or Puppet? (1 Viewer)

[Mitch]

Guys

I am interested in your views of this statement. I read a few years back a book entitled this and, have been interested in the reichs marshall since. His role and some of the encounters he had with Chamberlins officials prior to war and, some of his actions during 39.

I was struck by his comments in his summation at the end of the tribunal when he said:

' I did not want a war nor did I bring one about; I did everything to avoid by means of negotiations. After it had broken out, I did everything to ensure victory'.
Mitch

 

[debrito]

I think that even Hitler did not want a war, but to achieve his main goal, the extermination of the Jews, he has no choice...

 

[OzDigger]

I don't see the true Goring as either a Paladin or a puppet of Hitler. I believe Goring was even more devious and cunning than Heydrich. Hitler believed he was playing his followers against each other to achieve his own goals but most of the time they were playing Hitler.

 

[OzDigger]

I think that even Hitler did not want a war, but to achieve his main goal, the extermination of the Jews, he has no choice...

Hitler expected war at some stage but thought he could delay it until Germany had built up more reserves. He was surprised when England etc actually declared war on Germany following the invasion of Poland. Most historians agree that extermination of the Jews was not his main goal. He mainly wanted to expand Germany, the Jews were one of many peoples he wanted to enslave and or exterminate. Further more, the idea that the allies went to war against Germany because of Hitler's persecution of the Jews is one of the many myths of WWII.

 

[uksubs]

Hitler expected war at some stage but thought he could delay it until Germany had built up more reserves. He was surprised when England etc actually declared war on Germany following the invasion of Poland. Most historians agree that extermination of the Jews was not his main goal. He mainly wanted to expand Germany, the Jews were one of many peoples he wanted to enslave and or exterminate. Further more, the idea that the allies went to war against Germany because of Hitler's persecution of the Jews is one of the many myths of WWII.

The France & Britain went to war as Germany invaded Poland fact

 

[jazzeum]

Getting back to the original question, Goering was no one's fool and a rather intelligent man who was rather worldly. He was also one of the most powerful men in the Reich and the one who Hitler entrusted to crush the opposition in 1933.

He was against the War believing Germany wasn't ready. He was not a particularly good bureaucrat, either appointing men or acquiescing to apoointments who were not good. His tactical decisions during the Battle of Britain were poor.

Later on as the War progressed he became a caricature of himself and not the man he had been early on. I believe he broke with Hitler in the dying days of the Reich; I believe Hitler may have expelled from the Party.

 

[Mitch]

Its interesting as Hitler himself was stunned and somewhat dismayed at the declaration of war especially, by Great Britain. What was interesting with Goring was his lack of interest and, availability in the months leading up to WWII.

There seems little doubt that Goring did not want a war with the west per se whether he wanted one with the east is another issue but, IMO it seems he would not have commented against it as he had with the west.

The jewish question both, Gesamtlosung and Edlosung were operations which, had no real part of the start of WWII and, occured gradually until the 31st July 1941 decree although Heydrich had been acting upon an earlier decree of 24 Jan 1939.

Its quite clear that Goring did seem very frightened of Hitler to a high level and, I don't know how much he was able to manipulate Hitler others, for sure, though many also wanted to be around Goring for his apparant infectious personality.
Mitch

 

[OzDigger]

Goering went behind Hitler's back stealing millions of dollars worth of art and basically used the war to expand his personal wealth. Whilst doing this he cared little about military tactics and seemed to use the Luftwaffe in the least effective way. The fact that he could get away with this almost to the end of the war suggests to me that he wasn't a Puppet of Hitler. Nor was he a Paladin (Champion) because he rarely carried out Hitler's instructions, he did his thing his way.

 

[Mitch]

I think the 20,000 RM he got per month for his office initially helped his collection and, then did pillage a bit of the worlds art and wine etc. I think he was allowed to get away with such things due to his loss of favour with Hitler after the Battle of Britain for one and Stalingrad as another and, the power which, Bormann held over Hitler.

He then went back to drug taking and, rather lived in an uncaring for reality fantasy world where he was a great huntsman and host. I also, think he realised quite well that the war was lost long before others in the command structure, Which affected the manner in whom he appointed and, what action he took
Mitch

Goering went behind Hitler's back stealing millions of dollars worth of art and basically used the war to expand his personal wealth. Whilst doing this he cared little about military tactics and seemed to use the Luftwaffe in the least effective way. The fact that he could get away with this almost to the end of the war suggests to me that he wasn't a Puppet of Hitler. Nor was he a Paladin (Champion) because he rarely carried out Hitler's instructions, he did his thing his way.

 

[jazzeum]

Not to defend him but his drug taking was due to an accident he had suffered that bothered him for the rest of his life.

 

[Mitch]

Jazzeum...

Quite true but, there was a period where he was 'drug free' and, as things with the Luftwaffe and his relationship with Hitler and, his power position diminished where he returned to this addiction once more. Its hard to represent some of the arguments that have come out about him without sounding defensive for the undefensable.

However, some of the things which, initially were attributed to him and, off the top of my head the draft to Heydrich purporting to start the Final solution and, the execution of the RAF POW's we now know were not attributable directly to him. At least, in the sense that he did not dictate the letter which, he signed it was Heydrich and, Goring was away on holiday when the Gestapo/SS on the behest of Hitler and, advisors to shoot the airmen.

So, in part he certainly, allowed National socialism to remove his morality or, at the least smother it but, as the big fish at Nuremburg he had the patsy emblem attached from what I have read
Mitch

QUOTE=jazzeum;309761]Not to defend him but his drug taking was due to an accident he had suffered that bothered him for the rest of his life.[/QUOTE]

 

[lancer]

Hitler expected war at some stage but thought he could delay it until Germany had built up more reserves. He was surprised when England etc actually declared war on Germany following the invasion of Poland. Most historians agree that extermination of the Jews was not his main goal. He mainly wanted to expand Germany, the Jews were one of many peoples he wanted to enslave and or exterminate. Further more, the idea that the allies went to war against Germany because of Hitler's persecution of the Jews is one of the many myths of WWII.

You got it Oz. Expansion of Germany's borders and bringing Germanic people back into Germany's fold was Hitler's main goal. This goal is stated in the very first and second paragraphs of "Mein Kampf". It is all there in black and white. One Reich and One People were his goals. -- Al

 

[Mitch]

Lancer/OZDigger....

I just don't know how that myth if we can call it started. Though its easy to state that he hated jews from day one which, somehow allows some sort of explanation for some regarding the holocaust. Even after the outbreak of hostilities certain countries paid germany to take jewish people so, far from there being a pre-existing policy of extermination many many different solutions to the so called 'jewish question' were being examined from mass deportation to finding a settlement for all of these people.

I think one has only to look at the Versaille treaty to see what was eventually going to happen. Bringing back all the territory that was stripped from germany at the end of WW1 was seen as correct to the german people but, as happens with all military dictators these exhuberances take over.
Mitch

You got it Oz. Expansion of Germany's borders and bringing Germanic people back into Germany's fold was Hitler's main goal. This goal is stated in the very first and second paragraphs of "Mein Kampf". It is all there in black and white. One Reich and One People were his goals. -- Al

 

[lancer]

As stated, Hitler was after "living room". He wanted room to expand the German people and culture. The actual intent was to go east. That is where the potential lay. Subjegating Europe was a neccesary adjunct. His war with the USSR was always going to happen because he needed that "room". As we know, that war with the east got started a litle later than he would have liked but it was going to happen regardless of Stalin's treaty. Fortunately for all of mankind, that pesky island nation to the west kind of messed up that overall plan of Hitler's, once again forcing Germany into a two front war. -- Al

 

[Mitch]

lancer....

Frightening to think what could have happened if we had not caused such a ruckess in the Balkens which, put back Barbarossa those vital months which, could have allowed them to take Moscow.
Mitch


;315199]As stated, Hitler was after "living room". He wanted room to expand the German people and culture. The actual intent was to go east. That is where the potential lay. Subjegating Europe was a neccesary adjunct. His war with the USSR was always going to happen because he needed that "room". As we know, that war with the east got started a litle later than he would have liked but it was going to happen regardless of Stalin's treaty. Fortunately for all of mankind, that pesky island nation to the west kind of messed up that overall plan of Hitler's, once again forcing Germany into a two front war. -- Al[/QUOTE]

 

[lancer]

Very true, Mitch. A few more weeks of warm weather early on could have made an enormous difference to the Germans. Thank the British Empire and Allies that they didn't get it. -- Al