Hall of Fame Questions (1 Viewer)

[tdubel]

thought it would be interesting to start a list of pro sports figures not in the hall but who IMO deserve it. I will only speak on Pittsburgh teams as that is what I know, but seems to be a lot of snubs out there!

Obvious ones again IMO for Pittsburgh, but seemingly based on what I read a lot agree:

1. LC Greenwood - Steelers - just not sure how he never made it.
2. Donnie Shell - Steelers - arguably one of the most versatile strong safety to play the game - current leader in career INT's at that position if my research is correct.

3. Dave Parker - Pirates - when you talk about an all star and a guy who could change a game, how does he not get in? There are ones in with a less resume, I think he got blackballed b/c of drug trials in Pittsburgh. He went on with his career and was a dominant force on other teams including another WS ring with Oakland as a DH. I think he should get in.

4. Bill Madlock - he was a perennial gold glove and in the running and winning batting champion. I think what hurts him is he played for a good number of teams and he was not a "self promoter". His numbers seem to hold though with 4 batting titles and a few runner ups and career .305 average.

5. While not a Pittsburgh guy, will state the obvious - Pete Rose should be in the hall. His numbers are what they are, his debt to society has been long paid IMO

Again, just an interesting question, there seem to be so many out there who should be in the place of others who are in the "Halls".

TD

 

[jazzeum]

I will confine my comments to baseball.

I agree about Parker, Madlock was a good player but I don’t see him as a HOFer and Rose, no. Statewise, obviously but it takes more than that to get in. Same reasoning applies to anyone who used steroids.

 

[lancer]

I think Mike Mussina and Jack Morris both belong in the HoF. Mussina is a no-brainer, having won 270 games with a 3.68 ERA while pitching his entire career in the toughest division in baseball. Morris is more borderline but he won 254 games with a 3.90 ERA, with 3824 IPs and 175 CGs. There are many pitchers in the HoF with far less impressive resumes. As for Rose, you let him in, you have to let Joe Jackson in, and the can of worms is then wide open. -- Al

 

[ccdc11]

I'll only address the Rose issue. I had always thought that based on the stats Rose should be in the hall, then you add the character issue of past players (Cobb , Ruth and the like ) and how do you not add him. but about 15 years ago I met and became friends with the former FBI SAC from ST Louis who investigated the Rose Deal. Very calm ,very professional Man who lost his mind one day when I mentioned Rose should be in the hall.
This was right after Rose showing up drunk for the interview on the sidelines after they let him back in the park and his statement to me was "Rose bet on baseball for years , on his own team and they firmly believe that he bet against his own team a time or two" that above the walkway into the clubhouse, of every major league team is a sign that says if you bet on baseball you be banned for life. That Rose saw this everyday and still did it because he was degenerate gambler . I had never seen this guy loose his temper or swear until this issue and he meant every word he said .
I have never seen anyone play the game with the intensity that Pete did and probably never will again , the records he holds are amazing, but he broke the cardinal rule of baseball willingly and I don't think they will ever let him in because of that. Beyond that I will always respect him as one of the greatest to play the game
Chuck

 

[jazzeum]

I think Mike Mussina and Jack Morris both belong in the HoF. Mussina is a no-brainer, having won 270 games with a 3.68 ERA while pitching his entire career in the toughest division in baseball. Morris is more borderline but he won 254 games with a 3.90 ERA, with 3824 IPs and 175 CGs. There are many pitchers in the HoF with far less impressive resumes. As for Rose, you let him in, you have to let Joe Jackson in, and the can of worms is then wide open. -- Al

Both Mussina and Morris are borderline to me. Mussina was a good pitcher but in my opinion he was a number 2 or 3 on a starting staff. I see Shoeless Joe as different than Rose.

 

[desk11desk12]

Tom:

That's a real "can of worms" you've opened.

IMO: If Bill Mazeroski (Pittsburgh Pirates) made it to baseball's hall of fame, almost anyone can!

Oh brother,

Carlos

 

[jazzeum]

It helps to have friends on the Veterans Committee {eek3}

 

[Panzer ace]

In baseball, Jeff Kent:

All-time leader in home runs as a second baseman (351)
Only second baseman to have 100 or more RBIs in 6 consecutive seasons (1997–2002)
5-time All-Star (1999–2001, 2004–05)
4-time Silver Slugger (2000–2002, 2005)
National League MVP (2000)

 

[theBaron]

I'll only address the Rose issue. I had always thought that based on the stats Rose should be in the hall, then you add the character issue of past players (Cobb , Ruth and the like ) and how do you not add him. but about 15 years ago I met and became friends with the former FBI SAC from ST Louis who investigated the Rose Deal. Very calm ,very professional Man who lost his mind one day when I mentioned Rose should be in the hall.
This was right after Rose showing up drunk for the interview on the sidelines after they let him back in the park and his statement to me was "Rose bet on baseball for years , on his own team and they firmly believe that he bet against his own team a time or two" that above the walkway into the clubhouse, of every major league team is a sign that says if you bet on baseball you be banned for life. That Rose saw this everyday and still did it because he was degenerate gambler . I had never seen this guy loose his temper or swear until this issue and he meant every word he said .
I have never seen anyone play the game with the intensity that Pete did and probably never will again , the records he holds are amazing, but he broke the cardinal rule of baseball willingly and I don't think they will ever let him in because of that. Beyond that I will always respect him as one of the greatest to play the game
Chuck

Precisely.

I wouldn't compare Rose with Cobb, either, when discussing character, especially in the light of the information presented in Charles Leerhsen's, "Ty Cobb: A Terrible Beauty." Much of what we consider common knowledge about Cobb today is of questionable origin and possibly, probably, false.

Prost!
Brad

 

[lancer]

Both Mussina and Morris are borderline to me. Mussina was a good pitcher but in my opinion he was a number 2 or 3 on a starting staff. I see Shoeless Joe as different than Rose.

Mussina was a legitimate #1 on any starting staff for most of his career, only falling below that status after age 34 and even then he won 20 at age 39, his final year. He was in double figures with wins for 17 of his 18 years and suffered only 2 losing seasons, his first year and last year in Baltimore. He is 117 wins over .500 for his career with a winning% of .638, a figure that most HoF pitchers don't come close to matching. I simply believe he exceeds all the criteria for the Hall, and by a good margin. -- Al

 

[ccdc11]

Precisely.

I wouldn't compare Rose with Cobb, either, when discussing character, especially in the light of the information presented in Charles Leerhsen's, "Ty Cobb: A Terrible Beauty." Much of what we consider common knowledge about Cobb today is of questionable origin and possibly, probably, false.

Prost!
Brad

I am unaware of a reexamining of Cobb's history and will look for that book.

 

[Panzer ace]

Mussina was a legitimate #1 on any starting staff for most of his career, only falling below that status after age 34 and even then he won 20 at age 39, his final year. He was in double figures with wins for 17 of his 18 years and suffered only 2 losing seasons, his first year and last year in Baltimore. He is 117 wins over .500 for his career with a winning% of .638, a figure that most HoF pitchers don't come close to matching. I simply believe he exceeds all the criteria for the Hall, and by a good margin. -- Al

Mussina belongs in the Hall. From CBS Sports:

He won at least 15 games in 11 different seasons. Ignoring his 12-start rookie year, Mussina never won fewer than 11 games and he never had a losing record. His .638 winning percentage is 41st best in MLB history and better than Hall of Famers like Jim Palmer, Juan Marichal, Carl Hubbell, Bob Feller and Cy Young.

 

[lancer]

Mussina belongs in the Hall. From CBS Sports:

He won at least 15 games in 11 different seasons. Ignoring his 12-start rookie year, Mussina never won fewer than 11 games and he never had a losing record. His .638 winning percentage is 41st best in MLB history and better than Hall of Famers like Jim Palmer, Juan Marichal, Carl Hubbell, Bob Feller and Cy Young.

Mussina, not counting the 12 start, 4-5 record of his first season, had only one other losing season, in 2000, 11-15, his last year in Baltimore. Along with his 20 win season in 2008, his final season, he won 18 games 3 times and 19 games twice. He deserves to be in the HoF. -- Al

 

[jazzeum]

Mussina was a legitimate #1 on any starting staff for most of his career, only falling below that status after age 34 and even then he won 20 at age 39, his final year. He was in double figures with wins for 17 of his 18 years and suffered only 2 losing seasons, his first year and last year in Baltimore. He is 117 wins over .500 for his career with a winning% of .638, a figure that most HoF pitchers don't come close to matching. I simply believe he exceeds all the criteria for the Hall, and by a good margin. -- Al

Don’t get me wrong, he was a good solid pitcher and I could see him getting him in but he’s borderline. When I think of great pitchers, someone like the great Roy Halladay comes to mind. I think the voters generally agree as his votes have until this year been underwhelming. He’s currently at 51.8%, with six years of eligibility remaining so he may eventually get in.

 

[Panzer ace]

thought it would be interesting to start a list of pro sports figures not in the hall but who IMO deserve it. I will only speak on Pittsburgh teams as that is what I know, but seems to be a lot of snubs out there!

Obvious ones again IMO for Pittsburgh, but seemingly based on what I read a lot agree:

1. LC Greenwood - Steelers - just not sure how he never made it.
2. Donnie Shell - Steelers - arguably one of the most versatile strong safety to play the game - current leader in career INT's at that position if my research is correct.

3. Dave Parker - Pirates - when you talk about an all star and a guy who could change a game, how does he not get in? There are ones in with a less resume, I think he got blackballed b/c of drug trials in Pittsburgh. He went on with his career and was a dominant force on other teams including another WS ring with Oakland as a DH. I think he should get in.

4. Bill Madlock - he was a perennial gold glove and in the running and winning batting champion. I think what hurts him is he played for a good number of teams and he was not a "self promoter". His numbers seem to hold though with 4 batting titles and a few runner ups and career .305 average.

5. While not a Pittsburgh guy, will state the obvious - Pete Rose should be in the hall. His numbers are what they are, his debt to society has been long paid IMO

Again, just an interesting question, there seem to be so many out there who should be in the place of others who are in the "Halls".

TD

Tom:

BTW, great topic for a thread.

-Jason

 

[Terp152]

Hard to see a player/manager, Rose, who bet from the dugout during games deserving HOF. That's like saying Lance Armstrong should be in a Tour De France HOF. I know not quite parallel, one is drugs the other gambling. But it means the same to me, breaking the rules.

And Mussina........NAH! :tongue: Chris

 

[jazzeum]

A pet peeve of many people in NY and LA has been the omission of Gil Hodges from the Hall. Gil was a mainstay of the Brooklyn Dodgers and had some great years for them. Unfortunately, I never saw him play until he was a Met in the downside of his career. However, I did see him manage the Mets and without Gil the Mets wouldn’t have won the WS in 1969. He’s the best we’ve ever had. His word was law (at a time when the manager was really the boss). Sadly, he died in 1972 of a heart attack. Although Yogi was a very good manager, maybe the Mets win the WS in 1973.

Gil has never gotten in for one reason or another (mostly due to politics in the Veterans Committee) and based on his player stats maybe he's borderline but if someone like Mazeroski or Santo are in, who weren’t half the player Gil was, Gil deserves to be there.

 

[Panzer ace]

To further the Jeff Kent argument here are his stats compared to Ryne Sandberg (both have 1 MVP):

Sandberg: Hits: 2386 Runs:1318 Batting Average: .285 HR: 282 RBI: 1061 OBP: .344 SLG: .452

Kent: Hits: 2462 Runs:1320 Batting Average: .290 HR: 377 RBI: 1518 OBP: .356 SLG: .500

 

[tdubel]

Tom:

BTW, great topic for a thread.

-Jason

Lots of good points posted on here about guys I was not aware of. I understand the frustration with Rose, his own demeanor didn't help him for a long time, had he been repentant much sooner, probably would have helped. I don't disagree he is lying in the bed he made that is for sure. I just choose to remember his on field stats, he certainly did that on his own without help, but again, don't disagree with the negative points either.

Probably the 2 that kill me the most are Dave Parker in baseball because he literally changed the game for big arm outfielders as well as hitting, but Donnie Shell on the Steelers, I fear he and LC for that matter are casualties of too many good Steelers from the same era. I am hopeful the veterans eventually grant them entry, but I fear it will be too late (obviously for LC), but also Parker as he is suffering terribly from Parkinsons.

TD