Hanomag Symbol ID please (4 Viewers)

[barneywomble]

Hello Fellow Collectors....

is the white symbol on the hanomag for a "Armored reconnaissance company on armored personnel Vehicle" ? or is it for something else....? I am sure the yellow symbol is for the 14th Infantry Division, Wehrmacht but please correct me if I am wrong...

Cheers
Marc

 

[PanzerAce1944]

Armored Recon Company

 

[barneywomble]

Thanks Panzerace... so can anyone help with the symbol as I just cannot find it...

cheers
marc

 

[barneywomble]

Hello... ok so I have narrowed my search down to either the 1st Armoured Infantry Company or the 1st Armoured Infantry Platoon... Any advice greatly appreciated.... ^&grin

cheers
Marc

 

[Phantom Warrior]

Hello... ok so I have narrowed my search down to either the 1st Armoured Infantry Company or the 1st Armoured Infantry Platoon... Any advice greatly appreciated.... ^&grin

cheers
Marc

The Top symbol is is indeed the 14th Panzer Division and the model is from Summer 1941 to February 1943. The white symbol looks a bit made up. The AFVs were not typically in armoured recon regiments because they were in short supply and too valuable for transporting Panzer Grenadiers. Germany had lots of AFVs designed specifically for recon. The 14th Panzer Division included the 36th Panzer Regiment and the 14th Schutzen Brigade. The Brigade consisted of the 103rd Schutzen Regiment and the 108th Schutzen Regiment. Each Regiment consisted of two Battalions. Each Battalion had 5 or sometimes 6 Companies. The Companies were numbered 1 - 10 (or 1 - 11). The white symbol is probably supposed to represent the 1st company of armoured infantry of the 103rd or 108th Schutzen Regiments.

Hope this helps

Terry

 

[barneywomble]

The Top symbol is is indeed the 14th Panzer Division and the model is from Summer 1941 to February 1943. The white symbol looks a bit made up. The AFVs were not typically in armoured recon regiments because they were in short supply and too valuable for transporting Panzer Grenadiers. Germany had lots of AFVs designed specifically for recon. The 14th Panzer Division included the 36th Panzer Regiment and the 14th Schutzen Brigade. The Brigade consisted of the 103rd Schutzen Regiment and the 108th Schutzen Regiment. Each Regiment consisted of two Battalions. Each Battalion had 5 or sometimes 6 Companies. The Companies were numbered 1 - 10 (or 1 - 11). The white symbol is probably supposed to represent the 1st company of armoured infantry of the 103rd or 108th Schutzen Regiments.

Hope this helps

Terry

Hi Terry, thanks for the info. I did find the symbol in fact I found two... both almost identical except one had a thicker line than the other hence the difference between a platoon or a company... I shall keep looking. I realize these are models but.... they are supposed to be historical models so I thought I would do some research on their markings.... a learning exercise (not rivet counting)

cheers
Marc

 

[Guy]

Hi Terry, thanks for the info. I did find the symbol in fact I found two... both almost identical except one had a thicker line than the other hence the difference between a platoon or a company... I shall keep looking. I realize these are models but.... they are supposed to be historical models so I thought I would do some research on their markings.... a learning exercise (not rivet counting)

cheers
Marc

Terry is right, the sign def represents the 1st company of an armored infantry regiment belonging to the 14th PD
guy

 

[barneywomble]

thanks everyone...

cheers
Marc

 

[Phantom Warrior]

Hi Terry, thanks for the info. I did find the symbol in fact I found two... both almost identical except one had a thicker line than the other hence the difference between a platoon or a company... I shall keep looking. I realize these are models but.... they are supposed to be historical models so I thought I would do some research on their markings.... a learning exercise (not rivet counting)

cheers
Marc

You are welcome Marc. I also enjoy researching the markings on AFVs. When this model first came out, I thought it odd that an SdKfz 251 would have kill marks. I suspected Andy had just made them up. So I checked the Lexikon Der Wehrmacht for the history of the 14th Panzer Division and with that info, I tracked down a photo of the actual vehicle. It has the yellow symbol in the rear corner and the exact same kill marks on the side. The white designation symbol under the yellow Division mark is a bit different from the one on the model. A flag has been added. The thick left side line on the symbol to differentiate a platoon vs a company is shown on paper, but often not painted on the vehicle - just the thin line. Platoons didn't usually have markings like that on a vehicle. It's a designation for a company.

The reason I know the vehicle was from Summer 1941 - February 1943 is because it is an Ausf. C used from the beginning of Barbarossa but after it had seen combat - hence the kill marks. The unit was wiped out at Stalingrad by Feb. 1943 so this vehicle couldn't have survived past then and was probably destroyed earlier.

Terry

 

[theBaron]

Anyone ask K&C what they intended it to be? Is there a description of the vehicle's unit in the packaging?

Prost!
Brad

 

[barneywomble]

You are welcome Marc. I also enjoy researching the markings on AFVs. When this model first came out, I thought it odd that an SdKfz 251 would have kill marks. I suspected Andy had just made them up. So I checked the Lexikon Der Wehrmacht for the history of the 14th Panzer Division and with that info, I tracked down a photo of the actual vehicle. It has the yellow symbol in the rear corner and the exact same kill marks on the side. The white designation symbol under the yellow Division mark is a bit different from the one on the model. A flag has been added. The thick left side line on the symbol to differentiate a platoon vs a company is shown on paper, but often not painted on the vehicle - just the thin line. Platoons didn't usually have markings like that on a vehicle. It's a designation for a company.

The reason I know the vehicle was from Summer 1941 - February 1943 is because it is an Ausf. C used from the beginning of Barbarossa but after it had seen combat - hence the kill marks. The unit was wiped out at Stalingrad by Feb. 1943 so this vehicle couldn't have survived past then and was probably destroyed earlier.

Terry

Thats cracker info Terry :salute:: Thanks heaps. I have quite a few books but it gets a bit confusing looking for the same symbol as is on the models. I am still having huge difficulty with the FOB038 - Stug III Ausf. B (Battle of France). I cannot find the "red skull" or the white "S" and the divisional markings are similar to some I have found but not exactly...

cheers
Marc

 

[Phantom Warrior]

Anyone ask K&C what they intended it to be? Is there a description of the vehicle's unit in the packaging?

Prost!
Brad

The descriptions are to make the model sound good and the symbols to make them look good. The descriptions and symbols are often correct - but not always. Andy sometimes takes artistic liberties (or sometimes just makes a mistake) and there are many such examples. Andy is first a salesman and promoter and second an excellent graphic artist and toy maker comes in at 3rd place.

Terry

 

[Phantom Warrior]

Thats cracker info Terry :salute:: Thanks heaps. I have quite a few books but it gets a bit confusing looking for the same symbol as is on the models. I am still having huge difficulty with the FOB038 - Stug III Ausf. B (Battle of France). I cannot find the "red skull" or the white "S" and the divisional markings are similar to some I have found but not exactly...

cheers
Marc

View attachment 146277

I have that model too and have researched it in detail. I have to go out, but will post in a few hours.

Terry

 

[barneywomble]

I have that model too and have researched it in detail. I have to go out, but will post in a few hours.

Terry

Thanks Terry.... I get caught all the time with the "HISTORICAL" that King and Country use in their marketing. That said mistakes do happen. I have started to enjoy my collection and delve a little deeper into it... ^&grin

Cheers
Marc

 

[Blowtorch]

To add on to Terry, it is indeed a valid symbol. The circle above the box means partially wheeled (or you could read partially halftracked).

In the panzer recon battalion OOB, this symbol (the half track recon company) is found, I'll have to scan later.

 

[Blowtorch]

Terry, chew on this...

Is it recon or panzer grenadier?

I don't have the OOB for 14 PD, but do have the 16PD, and most of the organizations in there at the HQ level have the wiggly recon line.

 

[Guy]

You are welcome Marc. I also enjoy researching the markings on AFVs. When this model first came out, I thought it odd that an SdKfz 251 would have kill marks. I suspected Andy had just made them up. So I checked the Lexikon Der Wehrmacht for the history of the 14th Panzer Division and with that info, I tracked down a photo of the actual vehicle. It has the yellow symbol in the rear corner and the exact same kill marks on the side. The white designation symbol under the yellow Division mark is a bit different from the one on the model. A flag has been added. The thick left side line on the symbol to differentiate a platoon vs a company is shown on paper, but often not painted on the vehicle - just the thin line. Platoons didn't usually have markings like that on a vehicle. It's a designation for a company.

The reason I know the vehicle was from Summer 1941 - February 1943 is because it is an Ausf. C used from the beginning of Barbarossa but after it had seen combat - hence the kill marks. The unit was wiped out at Stalingrad by Feb. 1943 so this vehicle couldn't have survived past then and was probably destroyed earlier.

Terry

In 1943 also the tactical signs for an infantry comp changed from the one we just covered into this one

guy

 

[Phantom Warrior]

To add on to Terry, it is indeed a valid symbol. The circle above the box means partially wheeled (or you could read partially halftracked).

In the panzer recon battalion OOB, this symbol (the half track recon company) is found, I'll have to scan later.

Terry, chew on this...

Is it recon or panzer grenadier?

I don't have the OOB for 14 PD, but do have the 16PD, and most of the organizations in there at the HQ level have the wiggly recon line.

The symbol may be recon but that doesn't mean it's correct on the model. SdKfz 251 were not typically used for recon - they were too valuable for transporting Panzer Grenadiers. The circle above the box likely means the that not all the AFVs were halftracked - some were wheeled as in trucks. I have a photo of the actual vehicle the model is based on. The symbol on it does not have a recon flag nor does it have antennae typical of a Recon vehicle.

Just for interest, Pz. Rgt. 36 at the beginning of Barbarossa in June 1941 had two Battalions, each with a medium company and two light companies. Their tank roster was 45 Pz. II; 15 Pz. III with 37mm gun; 56 Pz.III with the 50mm gun; 20 short barrel Pz. IV; and 11 command tanks. In June 1942 on the advance to Stalingrad, Pz. Rgt. 36 was organized into 3 Battalions, each with one medium and two light companies. Their tank compliment was only 14 Pz.II; 41 Pz.III with the 50mm gun; 19 Pz.III with the 50mm long gun; 24 short barreled Pz.IV and 4 command tanks.

Terry

 

[Phantom Warrior]

In 1941 -1942, the squiggly flag symbol means motorized - not recon. The recon symbol is a black crescent shaped flag.

 

[King Tiger II]

i do have something close to the Stug III Ausf. B


look at both photos. maybe it will help


Serge