High water mark of the confederacy..where? (2 Viewers)

Sears it is he shamefully says :eek:. I have read some brief chapters from general histories of the Civil War but never a full length book so here we go (and of course I have visited a couple of times). I probably know more about the Gettyburg Address than the battle itself.

Thanks.

Brad

Just this very day received a DVD from Amazon-Lincoln (USTV 1988) with Sam Waterston as Abe and Mary Tyler Moore as Mrs L-recommended by a good Yankee pal of mine.

Have you seen this?-if so any good?-not that I am overly concerned if it's a bowl of pants as I got it new for the princely sum of £2.00

Bob
 
One would be hard pressed to find a better campaign history of Gettysburg than Edwin Coddington's "The Gettysburg Campaign: A Study in Command". Done in 1968 and reprinted many times it is still the work against which others are measured. I confess I have not read the Sear's book but if it is as good as his others (especially Landscape Turned Red) it is sure to be top-notch. Coddington's book is extremely thorough in it's research. Writing is a bit dry but not too bad. Well illustrated with maps and an order of battle. -- Al
 
Rob, definitely hire a private guide that rides in your car. I found it very informative. Also in the museum, I noticed alot of the artifacts was from one family. They must have picked up all this stuff after the battle.
 
Brad

Just this very day received a DVD from Amazon-Lincoln (USTV 1988) with Sam Waterston as Abe and Mary Tyler Moore as Mrs L-recommended by a good Yankee pal of mine.

Have you seen this?-if so any good?-not that I am overly concerned if it's a bowl of pants as I got it new for the princely sum of £2.00

Bob

Bob,

Can't say that I have although I distinctly remember hearing about it. Waterston would strike me as a good choice to play Lincoln. Not sure about MTM as Mrs. L. I'll have to hunt it down, perhaps through the local library.
 
One would be hard pressed to find a better campaign history of Gettysburg than Edwin Coddington's "The Gettysburg Campaign: A Study in Command". Done in 1968 and reprinted many times it is still the work against which others are measured. I confess I have not read the Sear's book but if it is as good as his others (especially Landscape Turned Red) it is sure to be top-notch. Coddington's book is extremely thorough in it's research. Writing is a bit dry but not too bad. Well illustrated with maps and an order of battle. -- Al

Al

Agree with you on Coddington up to a point-but as it was written in the late 60's in comparison to Sears book it's now showing it's age. I remember in my history class every student carried a copy of it under his arm as a must have reference book along with of course the latest Gerry Mulligan album :D.

Possibly the sub-title- A Command Decision- bests reflects the differences between the two authors-EC's version uses this as his basic template-which generals gave what orders/commands or not that effected the various parts of the battle. Whilst Sears also uses that but he also minutely dissects other non-general combatants actions in the heat of battle that equally influenced the fight over those three days.

I'll also forgive Coddington's slight Yankee bias especially to Meade-afterall they were both Pennsylvanians ;) And fully concur with your comment of Landscape Turned Red-easily the best book yet written on that brutal battle at Antietam

Bob
 
Al

Agree with you on Coddington up to a point-but as it was written in the late 60's in comparison to Sears book it's now showing it's age. I remember in my history class every student carried a copy of it under his arm as a must have reference book along with of course the latest Gerry Mulligan album :D.

Possibly the sub-title- A Command Decision- bests reflects the differences between the two authors-EC's version uses this as his basic template-which generals gave what orders/commands or not that effected the various parts of the battle. Whilst Sears also uses that but he also minutely dissects other non-general combatants actions in the heat of battle that equally influenced the fight over those three days.

I'll also forgive Coddington's slight Yankee bias especially to Meade-afterall they were both Pennsylvanians ;) And fully concur with your comment of Landscape Turned Red-easily the best book yet written on that brutal battle at Antietam

Bob
Bob, it sounds like I need to read the Sears book. Maybe time to update my Knowledge:D. I do like the Sears writing style. -- Al
 
Bob, it sounds like I need to read the Sears book. Maybe time to update my Knowledge:D. I do like the Sears writing style. -- Al

Al

I promise you-you wont regret it-plus once you've finished it you'll want to view the film Gettysburg again if for nothing else but to pick out the flaws and mistakes :D

Bob
 
Rob

As far as your specific question goes I cannot add much to what the guys have already posted but DCN nailed it perfectly as being more of a symbolic statement for every soldier who fought and died there.

When you get there you'll be surprised at the amount of statues and monuments even markers that pepper the area with the majority being magnificent and I stand to be corrected but the 11th Mississippi monument I considered to be one of the ugliest. Here's a picture judge for yourself.

MS011INF050208031.jpg


I was also not impressed with Longstreet's statue situated at Pitzer's Woods-Now you don't see many statues of mounted generals without being on at least a plinth. But Old Pete is right down at dirt level no doubt to mark the controversy that still surrounds his actions and conduct on the second and third day and it took 135 years before they finally erected it to his memory

Longstreet1-S1.gif


I'll bring you some literature to read when I catch you at the June show.

Bob

Thanks Bob,always good to get your slant on things mate.

Rob, definitely hire a private guide that rides in your car. I found it very informative. Also in the museum, I noticed alot of the artifacts was from one family. They must have picked up all this stuff after the battle.

Sounds like good advice,will definitely do this,thanks.

Rob
 
"....I stand to be corrected but the 11th Mississippi monument I considered to be one of the ugliest"

It's on the top ten with the Old Pete statue and the new Joe Johnston statue at Bentonville, North Carolina.
 
"....I stand to be corrected but the 11th Mississippi monument I considered to be one of the ugliest"

It's on the top ten with the Old Pete statue and the new Joe Johnston statue at Bentonville, North Carolina.

Sorry Scott-Clarification please! Does your post mean they are in the top ten best :eek: or worst monuments? As top ten of anything normally pre-fixes the best of something this side of the pond-
if that's the case I do indeed stand corrected but am left utterly bemused :confused:
 
Excuse me....Ugliest CW/WBTS related statues. Bronzed department store dummies.

There's a pretty bad Nathan Bedford Forrest one out there. I think it was sculpted by BMC toys.

statue1.jpg


But I digress from the topic..
 
Rob,
The "high water mark of the Confederacy" is most commonly referred to as the point where Armistead was mortally wounded as his Virginians overran two of Cushings guns.

As you pointed out, the reality is the true "high water mark" is indeed where the 11th Mississippi from Pettigrews division under the command of Davis (Jefferson Davis' nephew as a matter of fact) tangled with the 111th NY and 12th NJ near the Brien house to the far left of the Confederate attack.

What you have to remember is most of the Confederate accounts of the war were written by Virginians. For example, the attack is commonly referred to as "Picketts Charge" even though Trimble and Pettigrew had more men engaged in the charge than Pickett did; the vast majority of troops who took part in the doomed assault were from the great state of North Carolina, others from Mississippi, Alabama and Tennessee, not from Virginia.

As far as the actual battlefield, there are very few places where you cannot wander in and around. I travel down there at least three times per year and each time I pick a specific area to go over in depth. This past weekend I was down there for a show and spend most of my time in and around Culps Hill. I will be back down there in July and plan to walk the route of Barksdales famous charge that took place on the second day.

Gettysburg is a spectacular place to visit, can't speak highly enough of the battlefield and how well preserved it is..............
 
I have been thinking about this since the thread was posted, and I think that in a lot of ways, Chancellorsville could be said to be the true high water mark of the Confederacy. It is true that the Army of Northern Virginia went into Pennsylvania, but Chancellorsville was the last major Confederate victory in the east where the Union was forced to retreat back into Maryland and the Confederates were in control of the battlefield when it was over.
You can't call the Wilderness a victory for the Union but Grant decided to slide south rather than retreat again.
I by no means want to denigrate the battle of Gettysburg. I would be interested in your thoughts.
 
I think your opinion is a very good choice.Morale was very high after Chancellorsville dampened only by the loss of Jackson.I think the loss of Jackson was a death blow for the ANV.
Mark
 
This may be a perfect excuse for several of us to get together with Rob to go see Gettysburg again. I have not been there for many years.

I was just there this weekend, but I could go for another round :D
 
I have been thinking about this since the thread was posted, and I think that in a lot of ways, Chancellorsville could be said to be the true high water mark of the Confederacy. It is true that the Army of Northern Virginia went into Pennsylvania, but Chancellorsville was the last major Confederate victory in the east where the Union was forced to retreat back into Maryland and the Confederates were in control of the battlefield when it was over.
You can't call the Wilderness a victory for the Union but Grant decided to slide south rather than retreat again.
I by no means want to denigrate the battle of Gettysburg. I would be interested in your thoughts.

Had Ewell attacked at the end of the first day at Gettysburg like Jackson surely would have, the Union line may very well have broken and the battle ended right there.

Were it not for Warren and Chamberlain, the Union left would have broken on the second day as the attacks by Hoods and McLaws divisions were spectacular in their own right. If Ewell attacked the Union right at the same these attacks were going off on the Union left, things may have turned out differently.

Regarding Picketts Charge, a number of factors contributed to it's failure, including the ineffective artillery cannonade, poor deployment for the advance on the left flank, large gaps in the initial advance, a long way for troops to advance and lack of support on both flanks of the attack.

Gettysburg always has and always will be the high tide of the Confederacy..............
 
Had Ewell attacked at the end of the first day at Gettysburg like Jackson surely would have, the Union line may very well have broken and the battle ended right there.

Were it not for Warren and Chamberlain, the Union left would have broken on the second day as the attacks by Hoods and McLaws divisions were spectacular in their own right. If Ewell attacked the Union right at the same these attacks were going off on the Union left, things may have turned out differently.

Regarding Picketts Charge, a number of factors contributed to it's failure, including the ineffective artillery cannonade, poor deployment for the advance on the left flank, large gaps in the initial advance, a long way for troops to advance and lack of support on both flanks of the attack.

Gettysburg always has and always will be the high tide of the Confederacy..............

I'm just playing Devil's advocate but, there were a few important missed opportunities at Gettysburg. At Chancellorsville Jackson DID make the flanking attack that rolled up the Union line. This is just grist for the mill. I happen to agree that Gettysburg will always be the high watermark but I think that Chancellorsville deserves has its own attributes.
I also wonder which Jackson would have been at Gettysburg. The one from Chancellorsville or the one from the Peninsula?
 
Rob,
The "high water mark of the Confederacy" is most commonly referred to as the point where Armistead was mortally wounded as his Virginians overran two of Cushings guns.

As you pointed out, the reality is the true "high water mark" is indeed where the 11th Mississippi from Pettigrews division under the command of Davis (Jefferson Davis' nephew as a matter of fact) tangled with the 111th NY and 12th NJ near the Brien house to the far left of the Confederate attack.

What you have to remember is most of the Confederate accounts of the war were written by Virginians. For example, the attack is commonly referred to as "Picketts Charge" even though Trimble and Pettigrew had more men engaged in the charge than Pickett did; the vast majority of troops who took part in the doomed assault were from the great state of North Carolina, others from Mississippi, Alabama and Tennessee, not from Virginia.

As far as the actual battlefield, there are very few places where you cannot wander in and around. I travel down there at least three times per year and each time I pick a specific area to go over in depth. This past weekend I was down there for a show and spend most of my time in and around Culps Hill. I will be back down there in July and plan to walk the route of Barksdales famous charge that took place on the second day.

Gettysburg is a spectacular place to visit, can't speak highly enough of the battlefield and how well preserved it is..............

Hey George,

Thanks for your thoughts mate always good to hear from you.Its good to know the visitor is not restricted and can pretty much wander at will.I've been lucky enough to visit many famous battlefields and Gettysburg is one of the biggest I've yet to see.We are hoping to make it in October and I can't tell you how much I'm looking forward to it,it looks like we would have a day there so I'm hoping its enough to take in Little round Top,Picketts charge and the Devils den.

Thanks again George

Rob
 
I have been thinking about this since the thread was posted, and I think that in a lot of ways, Chancellorsville could be said to be the true high water mark of the Confederacy. It is true that the Army of Northern Virginia went into Pennsylvania, but Chancellorsville was the last major Confederate victory in the east where the Union was forced to retreat back into Maryland and the Confederates were in control of the battlefield when it was over.
You can't call the Wilderness a victory for the Union but Grant decided to slide south rather than retreat again.
I by no means want to denigrate the battle of Gettysburg. I would be interested in your thoughts.

Cannot agree with Chancellorsville being described in any way as the true high water mark of the Confederacy. True the Yankee army retreated back over the Rappahannock just as Burnside had done after Fredericksburg but this agitated the hell out of Lee as once again he was unable to deliver the killer punch that he thought was necessary to permanently knock the Army of the Potomac off of his chessboard.

The battle has to be accounted as the costliest of Lee's victories up to that time with ANV casualties close to 13500 and Confederate dead far exceeding those of Hooker's army. Lee was to state that Chancellorsville depressed him the most out of all of his battles, the severe overall loss coupled with Jackson's death and for what? the South had not gained one inch of ground, the enemy could not be pursued and he had brought no relief to his hungry army except what they found in abandoned Yankee knapsacks. However, Chancellorsville had proved to Lee that he could beat "Fighting Joe Hooker", whom he privately referred to contemptuously as "Mr F.J. Hooker" and believed that he would likely be suffering from demoralization and the second time they met his ANV would resoundly beat him in the field. Lee was never short of arrogance, subsequently, he finalised a plan with Longstreet and presented it to Davis and Seddon. His audacious plan was to cross the Potomac and invade Pennsylvania but it opened up a whole host of possibilities for the South.

It would pull the Army of the Potomac out of it's fortified lines
It would disarrange any Union plans for a summer offensive into Virginia that alone would justify a march north
It would free Lee of the defensive strictures of the Rappahannock and allow him to maneuver at will.
Once across the Potomac his hungry army could feast in a land of plenty
It would allow Virginia's ravaged fields and farms time to replenish their stock.
By being victorious over Hooker in his own back yard and the mere threat of a Confederate army roaming free would panic the Northern citizens enough to swing public opinion to demand a truce.

Therefore Chancellorsville would be better described as the crucible that forged what would become known to history as Gettysburg rather than it being a high water mark.

I do however, agree with George's brief summary on the three days of missed opportunities at Gettysburg-all pure conjecture of course but much beloved by all historians and armchair generals.
If Jackson instead of Ewell had been at Culp's Hill
If Longstreet had listened to Sam Hood about updating the attack plan at the Round Tops
If the artillery had done a more effective job on Cemetery Ridge
If Lee had listened to Longstreet
If Longstreet had not laid the responsibility for Pickett's attack on his 28 year old chief of artillery.

All of these and a hundred more are the nails of a horseshoe, any one of which may well have swung the battle to a Confederate victory-but the simple truth is as we well know the responsibility of victory or defeat is solely that of the commander. No one else-And in the case of Gettysburg Lee committed more tactical errors than he had ever done before-he was in an aggressive mood and his blood was up during the second and third days with a cast iron determination to attack-attack-attack-when encirclement and maneuver, or possibly even defense may have been the answer.

Reb
 
Another big if is what if Meade had followed up on his advantage immediately after the battle. This could have gone a long way to ending the insurgency. This failure to follow up caused Lincoln untold heartache.
 

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