Historical Accuracy (5 Viewers)

[trooper]

A major manufacturer was recently asked why he included standard bearers in ranges where historically they were not present. His answer was that they look good despite being inaccurate. If this line of reasoning is followed then Custer's Last stand could be depicted wearing their full dress uniform complete with plumed helmets, or the 24th at Rorke's Drift replaced by kilted highlanders etc. What degree of accuracy is acceptable to collectors? OK I know the examples I have given are going to the extreme, but personally I try to make items as accurate as possible and would be interested in further opinions.

 

[OzDigger]

A major manufacturer was recently asked why he included standard bearers in ranges where historically they were not present. His answer was that they look good despite being inaccurate. If this line of reasoning is followed then Custer's Last stand could be depicted wearing their full dress uniform complete with plumed helmets, or the 24th at Rorke's Drift replaced by kilted highlanders etc. What degree of accuracy is acceptable to collectors? OK I know the examples I have given are going to the extreme, but personally I try to make items as accurate as possible and would be interested in further opinions.

I suspect if you asked 100 different collectors you would get 100 different degree levels because each collector makes up there own mind based on personal taste & opinion and personal knowledge. For example, I wonder how many people think the 24th at Rorke's Drift was a Welsh unit.

 

[Cardigan600]

A major manufacturer was recently asked why he included standard bearers in ranges where historically they were not present. His answer was that they look good despite being inaccurate. If this line of reasoning is followed then Custer's Last stand could be depicted wearing their full dress uniform complete with plumed helmets, or the 24th at Rorke's Drift replaced by kilted highlanders etc. What degree of accuracy is acceptable to collectors? OK I know the examples I have given are going to the extreme, but personally I try to make items as accurate as possible and would be interested in further opinions.

lol, Yo Trooper, yeah lets have some Hussars & Lancers at Custer's last stand they would look good. What an answer from a major manufacturer its wrong but it looks good. What a bozo. These days we have all the books, paintings, Internet etc, so if they cannot get it Historically accurate IMHO they shouldn't be in the business.
Bernard.

 

[The Military Workshop]

As a dealer I would certainly prefer items to be historically accurate.
However the examples below are a bit extreme to say the least. However if a collector would like to have the Blackwatch at Rorkes Drift or the 17th Lancers at Custers Last Stand then they can certainly re-write history with their own collection if they wish to do so. I can tell you now I am going to have fun with the Light Horsemen and a camera when they arrive. They will be total fantasy but will look great.
In relation to the cavalry flagbearers who may not be correct for that particular charge / regiment I believe the manufacturer you refer to usually brings out at least 8 such cavalry at a time. There is therefore plenty of choice for the collector to choose from. As has been said many times if you have problems with an item don't buy it.
If the item is one from several items offered I don't really have a major problem with it. However if it is a one off item such as a tank that is described as being from say the battle of Kursk when no such tank was at that battle then I would have a problem with that sort of inaccuracy.
IMHO.
Regards
Brett

 

[trooper]

[

As a dealer I would certainly prefer items to be historically accurate.
However the examples below are a bit extreme to say the least. However if a collector would like to have the Blackwatch at Rorkes Drift or the 17th Lancers at Custers Last Stand then they can certainly re-write history with their own collection if they wish to do so. I can tell you now I am going to have fun with the Light Horsemen and a camera when they arrive. They will be total fantasy but will look great.
In relation to the cavalry flagbearers who may not be correct for that particular charge / regiment I believe the manufacturer you refer to usually brings out at least 8 such cavalry at a time. There is therefore plenty of choice for the collector to choose from. As has been said many times if you have problems with an item don't buy it.
If the item is one from several items offered I don't really have a major problem with it. However if it is a one off item such as a tank that is described as being from say the battle of Kursk when no such tank was at that battle then I would have a problem with that sort of inaccuracy.
IMHO.
Regards
Brett

As I said originally I realise that the examples I gave were a bit exteme, but my intention was to find out what degree of accuracy was acceptable to the majority. As you quite rightly say, you don't have to buy it. However in your final sentence if you substitute standard bearer for tank then you would appear to be in total agreement with me.

 

[Sans Culotte]

I suppose a collector can simply not purchase one or two pieces known to be inaccurate from an overall worthwhile set, but it's still maddening to see an otherwise reputable manufacturer "playing" with History (let us do that after we buy the figures!). You don't even have to go an extreme to cite some examples; witness how many times that you see swords & guns thicker than they really were.

 

[The Military Workshop]

Trooper,
I would not say total agreement. My tank example I would definitely have a problem with but if it is one flagbearer figure out of a group of 8 mounted guys then no problem as the customer / collector still has a choice.
Regards
Brett

 

[Spitfrnd]

This seems like another one of those questions that comes up periodically here and is largely a matter of taste and tolerance. I do appreciate accuracy in weapons and uniforms by the manufacturer but consistency is equally important. For some periods, there were so many variations it is likely impossible to see them all produced. Thus the Guards at Waterloo are not quite the same as the Guards at Coruna but that would not deter me from using one for both. To address the example, if the standard bearers were ever used by that unit in the time frame of the uniforms and weapons, then I can see a use for them and if a collector doesn't like them he can just not buy them. Similarly, I don't buy many drummers since I don't care for them, despite the fact they were often present.

As to the internet, books and painting, there is certainly much more information now but not a little of it is conflicting. Paintings in particular are known for their artistic licenses. So I think manufacturers should do their homework and be historically consistent for their particular lines but a mistake here and there would not be a significant deterrent for me if I otherwise liked the product.

 

[1879fanatic]

A major manufacturer was recently asked why he included standard bearers in ranges where historically they were not present. His answer was that they look good despite being inaccurate. If this line of reasoning is followed then Custer's Last stand could be depicted wearing their full dress uniform complete with plumed helmets, or the 24th at Rorke's Drift replaced by kilted highlanders etc. What degree of accuracy is acceptable to collectors? OK I know the examples I have given are going to the extreme, but personally I try to make items as accurate as possible and would be interested in further opinions.

Didn't K&C have kilted defenders at Rorke's Drift, in volley formation no less? And I recall multiple Gatlings put out by TSMs for that "event". Or CS having khaki trousers on their Royal Arty guys?
When I first started collecting, anything was acceptable, and desirable. Evolution of my interest and knowledge in both this hobby, and research turned me into a stickler for accuracy for painted figures that I buy.
This is not to say that the accuracy continues into my dios and set-ups as much, depending on what terrain, buildings etc. are out there, or that I mucked up
I guess it comes with a maturation period in the collector's hobby.
Mike

 

[theBaron]

Well, K&C put moustaches on its Hessian officers from the Revolutionary Wars, which isn't accurate. Also, there are examples of Prussian grenadiers from the 18th century carrying colors, which they did not have, most recently, Zvezda's 1/72 plastic figures, and before that, MiniWelt's Prussian flag-bearers include grenadiers.

I agree with the point that we collectors decide for ourselves how accurate our figures should be.

Prost!
Brad

 

[Combat]

I posted the below a while back in a similar thread - with the exception of a few newer examples it still stands as my opinion: http://www.treefrogtreasures.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4067&highlight=impossibility&page=3

I think it is important to be a little more precise in what it means to be "historically accurate."

1) Historic impossibility - these are situations in which the figure or vehicle depicted never could have existed. For example, a King Tiger in desert camo w/Afrika Korps markings. We know that none were sent and it would, in fact, have been impossible based on the historic timeline. Most collectors would object to any such product. Depending on your point of view the Rammjager would fall here or in number 3 below.

2) Historic improbability - This occurs a lot with uniforms. Armies wear standarized uniforms for different periods. However, it is not impossible that some soldiers may improvise during a campaign to appear as depicted in the figure. Thus, the figure may not be "typical" of the period but could still be "accurate" or at least not proven "inaccurate." Some collectors object to this but most don't seem to mind if it is at least historically possible.

3) Incorrect historical context in advertising - this is probably the most common source of complaint with KC. A figure or vehicle is advertised as part of a specific battle - D-Day, Bulge etc - but someone may point out that x, y or z makes it incorrect to associate it with that battle. The figure/vehicle itself may be 100% correct outside of its association with the advertisement. For example, the WWI Corp. Hitler figure cited in this thread as historically inaccurate is actually fine outside of the context of the early war years as advertised by KC. Hitler was a corporal in the German WWI army as depicted. This issue is most problematic for dio oriented collectors that only want pieces associated with specific battles (ie they don't want "German tanks" but just those that participated at the Bulge).

 

[tullock]

I see that the ghastly word 'Accuracy' has reared its ugly head again.And so soon after the recent skirmish on the K & C forum!
My own personal viewpoint is simple....if I pay hundreds of pounds to certain leading manufacturers I demand absolute accuracy,not items with authenticity levels on par with Britain's plastic Deetail products.It's okay for collectors who wear rose tinted spectacles to pronounce "Well if you don't like em don't buy em".I say " If I'm paying top prices.Do it right!".If they want to lay out the wrong type vehicles and figures in the wrong settings,fair enough.I don't! If I ordered a fantastic looking 150mm gun mounted on a Hotchkiss chassis and then discover it has been attributed to the Panzer Lehr Division and not the 21st I would get angry.If I bought a couple of excellent looking 251/22 Pakwagons (one for Normandy and the other for the Ardennes),and then discovered that these vehicles didn't serve with front line units until 1945,I would get angry.If I saw a beautifully sculptured grey steyr radio truck serving in the Ardennes and then found out that grey vehicles hadn't served in the German Army since early 1943,I would get angry.If I bought a set of magnificent cuirassiers depicted in action at Quatre Bras and then discover they weren't there at all,I would get angry.If I bought a set of exquisite confederates only to discover that the ragged and highly patched uniforms they wore were not suited to any known civil war battlefield,I would get angry.And if another manufacturer released a superb set of confederates dressed in regulation uniforms which I later discovered were never issued,I would get angrier still.So what's the answer?I think manufacturers have to heed the following.......
1.Better research is needed.Googleland is only a fingertip away after all.
2.Manufacturers should consult collectors who are in the know.it's amazing what they could learn.
3.With regard to German WW2 vehicles....Don't pin certain vehicles down to certain units or theatres of war unless absolutely certain.
4.Make Confederates less generic.After all,what a Confederate soldier wore in 1862 differed greatly from mid war depot manufactured uniforms or late war imported ones.
5.Try and take criticism on the chin without resorting to sarcasm.
*I have tended to choose the above periods as they are the ones that I am interested in.
On a lighter note it is truly heartwarming to see the new Collector's Showcase Ausf G Panther (Ardennes).This proves to me what is possible with a little research.It is obvious to me that only the most modern and comprehensive books on German late war camouflage were consulted as this vehicle certainly displays the M.A.N/Daimler Benz 'Classic Factory Pattern' camo scheme so often seen on the panthers of the Panzer Divisions who fought in the Battle of the Bulge.
To finish,if it is certain manufacturer's objectives to produce products for the masses without regard to accuracy,that is fine.But be warned.There are always new manufacturers lurking in the wings,ready to produce that 'absolutely authentic' halftrack or Gettysburg Reb that many serious collectors crave for.
My two pennies worth.
Jeff

 

[Spitfrnd]

Clearly this is another each to his own issue but I am more concerned with anatomical accuracy, excellence in painting and sculpting and consistency in size than whether the correct Cuirassier unit for Quatre Bas is produced. For the Napoleonic Wars, we are lucky to get one unit of any country's Cuirassiers, Lancers, Hussars or Dragoons, not to mention various their line units, from a given manufacturer so for me they will have to do "duty" as stand ins for other of their kind in other battles anyway. I do agree that manufacturers should do their best and accurately describe what it is that they are selling.

 

[uksubs]

I see that the ghastly word 'Accuracy' has reared its ugly head again.And so soon after the recent skirmish on the K & C forum!
My own personal viewpoint is simple....if I pay hundreds of pounds to certain leading manufacturers I demand absolute accuracy,not items with authenticity levels on par with Britain's plastic Deetail products.It's okay for collectors who wear rose tinted spectacles to pronounce "Well if you don't like em don't buy em".I say " If I'm paying top prices.Do it right!".If they want to lay out the wrong type vehicles and figures in the wrong settings,fair enough.I don't! If I ordered a fantastic looking 150mm gun mounted on a Hotchkiss chassis and then discover it has been attributed to the Panzer Lehr Division and not the 21st I would get angry.If I bought a couple of excellent looking 251/22 Pakwagons (one for Normandy and the other for the Ardennes),and then discovered that these vehicles didn't serve with front line units until 1945,I would get angry.If I saw a beautifully sculptured grey steyr radio truck serving in the Ardennes and then found out that grey vehicles hadn't served in the German Army since early 1943,I would get angry.If I bought a set of magnificent cuirassiers depicted in action at Quatre Bras and then discover they weren't there at all,I would get angry.If I bought a set of exquisite confederates only to discover that the ragged and highly patched uniforms they wore were not suited to any known civil war battlefield,I would get angry.And if another manufacturer released a superb set of confederates dressed in regulation uniforms which I later discovered were never issued,I would get angrier still.So what's the answer?I think manufacturers have to heed the following.......
1.Better research is needed.Googleland is only a fingertip away after all.
2.Manufacturers should consult collectors who are in the know.it's amazing what they could learn.
3.With regard to German WW2 vehicles....Don't pin certain vehicles down to certain units or theatres of war unless absolutely certain.
4.Make Confederates less generic.After all,what a Confederate soldier wore in 1862 differed greatly from mid war depot manufactured uniforms or late war imported ones.
5.Try and take criticism on the chin without resorting to sarcasm.
*I have tended to choose the above periods as they are the ones that I am interested in.
On a lighter note it is truly heartwarming to see the new Collector's Showcase Ausf G Panther (Ardennes).This proves to me what is possible with a little research.It is obvious to me that only the most modern and comprehensive books on German late war camouflage were consulted as this vehicle certainly displays the M.A.N/Daimler Benz 'Classic Factory Pattern' camo scheme so often seen on the panthers of the Panzer Divisions who fought in the Battle of the Bulge.
To finish,if it is certain manufacturer's objectives to produce products for the masses without regard to accuracy,that is fine.But be warned.There are always new manufacturers lurking in the wings,ready to produce that 'absolutely authentic' halftrack or Gettysburg Reb that many serious collectors crave for.
My two pennies worth.
Jeff

What a spot on post

 

[damian]

I see that the ghastly word 'Accuracy' has reared its ugly head again.And so soon after the recent skirmish on the K & C forum!
My own personal viewpoint is simple....if I pay hundreds of pounds to certain leading manufacturers I demand absolute accuracy,not items with authenticity levels on par with Britain's plastic Deetail products.It's okay for collectors who wear rose tinted spectacles to pronounce "Well if you don't like em don't buy em".I say " If I'm paying top prices.Do it right!".If they want to lay out the wrong type vehicles and figures in the wrong settings,fair enough.I don't! If I ordered a fantastic looking 150mm gun mounted on a Hotchkiss chassis and then discover it has been attributed to the Panzer Lehr Division and not the 21st I would get angry.If I bought a couple of excellent looking 251/22 Pakwagons (one for Normandy and the other for the Ardennes),and then discovered that these vehicles didn't serve with front line units until 1945,I would get angry.If I saw a beautifully sculptured grey steyr radio truck serving in the Ardennes and then found out that grey vehicles hadn't served in the German Army since early 1943,I would get angry.If I bought a set of magnificent cuirassiers depicted in action at Quatre Bras and then discover they weren't there at all,I would get angry.If I bought a set of exquisite confederates only to discover that the ragged and highly patched uniforms they wore were not suited to any known civil war battlefield,I would get angry.And if another manufacturer released a superb set of confederates dressed in regulation uniforms which I later discovered were never issued,I would get angrier still.So what's the answer?I think manufacturers have to heed the following.......
1.Better research is needed.Googleland is only a fingertip away after all.
2.Manufacturers should consult collectors who are in the know.it's amazing what they could learn.
3.With regard to German WW2 vehicles....Don't pin certain vehicles down to certain units or theatres of war unless absolutely certain.
4.Make Confederates less generic.After all,what a Confederate soldier wore in 1862 differed greatly from mid war depot manufactured uniforms or late war imported ones.
5.Try and take criticism on the chin without resorting to sarcasm.
*I have tended to choose the above periods as they are the ones that I am interested in.
On a lighter note it is truly heartwarming to see the new Collector's Showcase Ausf G Panther (Ardennes).This proves to me what is possible with a little research.It is obvious to me that only the most modern and comprehensive books on German late war camouflage were consulted as this vehicle certainly displays the M.A.N/Daimler Benz 'Classic Factory Pattern' camo scheme so often seen on the panthers of the Panzer Divisions who fought in the Battle of the Bulge.
To finish,if it is certain manufacturer's objectives to produce products for the masses without regard to accuracy,that is fine.But be warned.There are always new manufacturers lurking in the wings,ready to produce that 'absolutely authentic' halftrack or Gettysburg Reb that many serious collectors crave for.
My two pennies worth.
Jeff

On the Canada Toy Soldier Forum, they opened an accuracy thread for experts to critique accuracy issues. It worked well and there were some interesting discussions. It was great for some-one like me who also feels that at the prices we pay accuracy is quite important, but has neither the time nor inclination to do all this research. I could sit back and reap the benefit of various people like Canadian Samurai's obsessive knowledge of German cammo or Frank's knowledge of German armour.
Maybe you should give that forum a look Jeff you may find yourself amongst more kindred spirits there.

 

[1879fanatic]

On the Canada Toy Soldier Forum, they opened an accuracy thread for experts to critique accuracy issues. It worked well and there were some interesting discussions. It was great for some-one like me who also feels that at the prices we pay accuracy is quite important, but has neither the time nor inclination to do all this research. I could sit back and reap the benefit of various people like Canadian Samurai's obsessive knowledge of German cammo or Frank's knowledge of German armour.
Maybe you should give that forum a look Jeff you may find yourself amongst more kindred spirits there.

Whay not do it here, as well? That site can't be navigated by me very well... Must be blind in one eye and can't see out of the other
Also, this thread is not in any manufacturer's forum section, only General Toy Soldier Discussion.
It's one thing to critique/compare/query the manufacturers. Another to go after members' dios cause a dipping pail is on the wrong side of an arty piece. Remember when we called CS out on the RA uniform? He alluded to insider knowledge/research, instead of a quick- My Bad.
Carry On.
Mike

 

[The Lt.]

Excellent point Mike but what I'm affraid of is that it made become a major battle ground cause by those who can't accept any crtical comments no matter how valid they are when it comes to the subject being talked about or it's provider. But do agree it's an ideal place to start a thread on the subject......The Lt.

 

[damian]

I see that the ghastly word 'Accuracy' has reared its ugly head again.And so soon after the recent skirmish on the K & C forum!
My own personal viewpoint is simple....if I pay hundreds of pounds to certain leading manufacturers I demand absolute accuracy,not items with authenticity levels on par with Britain's plastic Deetail products.It's okay for collectors who wear rose tinted spectacles to pronounce "Well if you don't like em don't buy em".I say " If I'm paying top prices.Do it right!".If they want to lay out the wrong type vehicles and figures in the wrong settings,fair enough.I don't! If I ordered a fantastic looking 150mm gun mounted on a Hotchkiss chassis and then discover it has been attributed to the Panzer Lehr Division and not the 21st I would get angry.If I bought a couple of excellent looking 251/22 Pakwagons (one for Normandy and the other for the Ardennes),and then discovered that these vehicles didn't serve with front line units until 1945,I would get angry.If I saw a beautifully sculptured grey steyr radio truck serving in the Ardennes and then found out that grey vehicles hadn't served in the German Army since early 1943,I would get angry.If I bought a set of magnificent cuirassiers depicted in action at Quatre Bras and then discover they weren't there at all,I would get angry.If I bought a set of exquisite confederates only to discover that the ragged and highly patched uniforms they wore were not suited to any known civil war battlefield,I would get angry.And if another manufacturer released a superb set of confederates dressed in regulation uniforms which I later discovered were never issued,I would get angrier still.So what's the answer?I think manufacturers have to heed the following.......
1.Better research is needed.Googleland is only a fingertip away after all.
2.Manufacturers should consult collectors who are in the know.it's amazing what they could learn.
3.With regard to German WW2 vehicles....Don't pin certain vehicles down to certain units or theatres of war unless absolutely certain.
4.Make Confederates less generic.After all,what a Confederate soldier wore in 1862 differed greatly from mid war depot manufactured uniforms or late war imported ones.
5.Try and take criticism on the chin without resorting to sarcasm.
*I have tended to choose the above periods as they are the ones that I am interested in.
On a lighter note it is truly heartwarming to see the new Collector's Showcase Ausf G Panther (Ardennes).This proves to me what is possible with a little research.It is obvious to me that only the most modern and comprehensive books on German late war camouflage were consulted as this vehicle certainly displays the M.A.N/Daimler Benz 'Classic Factory Pattern' camo scheme so often seen on the panthers of the Panzer Divisions who fought in the Battle of the Bulge.
To finish,if it is certain manufacturer's objectives to produce products for the masses without regard to accuracy,that is fine.But be warned.There are always new manufacturers lurking in the wings,ready to produce that 'absolutely authentic' halftrack or Gettysburg Reb that many serious collectors crave for.
My two pennies worth.
Jeff

What Confederates and Curassiers are you referring to as being incorrect?

 

[1879fanatic]

Excellent point Mike but what I'm affraid of is that it made become a major battle ground cause by those who can't accept any crtical comments no matter how valid they are when it comes to the subject being talked about or it's provider. But do agree it's an ideal place to start a thread on the subject......The Lt.

Joe, I would hope civility, comaraderie, and a "We're all on the same boat" mentality would rule the day. We are all collectors for the pure joy, fun and escape of the hobby (I hope) and should realize that.
When the armor/paint scheme guys mention something out of place, it is done after careful research and an amount of expertise on the topic, not to degrade or belittle. Historical fact- I know I've stated some things (usually at work) on the forum, and hrs later said "I was plain dumb wrong", or thinking of someone, thing or another event.
This forum has so much to offer in all regards... Maybe a section called "Goofs" or "2 Cents Worth"!
Mike

 

[The Military Workshop]

If we kill all the "messengers" we might be short a few customers.
There is no truth in the rumour that certain manufacturers are investing in drone predators to handle potential complainants !
Can't the guys in Chicago see them overhead ?