Historical Accuracy (5 Viewers)

[The Lt.]

Hi Lt, As it says in the link you provided it didn't become the South Wales Borderers until 1881, The Battle of Rorke's Drift was in 1879.

I have no books on the Anglo-Zulu War and must depend on the web: http://www.kwazulu.co.uk/fact-fiction.html

Btw guys, nurse said I am only allowed One forum debate per week otherwise she'll have to up my meds, so there endeth the matter as far as I'm concerned

I'm sure if you spend some time reading the link that I posted until the next time your allowed to debate you'll find the it was formed as a Welch Regiment from the get go and as you stated became known as the SWB. You'll note once you read what's contain in the link they were known as both the 1st and 2nd Battalions 24th(2nd Warwickshire) Regiment of Foot formed in Wales and a Welsh Regiment at the battles of Isandlwana and Rorke's Drift and throughout the Zulu War. Spend some time reading the link which will confirm what I've said.

 

[tullock]

To quote Jeff
"Shortly before the Gettysburg campaign Lee's entire Army was resupplied with new uniforms(these are easily distinguishable on the Gettysburg photos).If I were to use only the current Confederate figure sets from many of our top manufacterers it would be almost impossible to build a diorama of this battle that was anything like accurate.


The argument about accuracy of the Confederates at Gettysburg only applies if the manufacturer has stated those figures are from Gettysburg. Since there were a lot more battles I think "generic" Confederates are acceptable. If the Confederates are not from the right tailor or stores for Gettysburg then perhaps they are corrrect for at least one other battle sometime during the war.

For example the first series of K&C ACW figures were from Antietam ( I won't even bother trying to research their tailor). The more recent K&C leaflet on the Confederate cavalry and wounded etc describes them as from before and after a light cavalry skirmish which I guess rules out Gettysburg. The previous infantry releases leaflet does not specify a battle or year. I guess further analysis is needed to work out which battles they can not be used for. If the Britains ones are OK for Gettysburg then I guess that means collectors can not use then for earlier battles.

To steal somebody else's line I am sure that if Confederate collectors want to know which tailor is appropriate for which battle then I am sure they will get in touch.

Now I am concerned. Are the Highlanders in my Culloden display wearing the correct tartans for those who attacked Barrel's Regiment ?

Just my thoughts but I am pretty sure most manufacturers do not have the time or the knowledge to get everything right 100% of the time.

Regards
Brett

You make reference to K & C's 'Antietam' Confederates.It is precisely because of sets such as these that I posted my initial comment.If you check through my post you will notice that I mention that all the photos taken at Antietam,which depict hundreds of Southern dead,never show rags or patches or 'multiforms'.All the rebs are dressed in short,neat jackets and pants and State frockcoats.That is precisely why several different manufacterer's Reb figures are unsuitable for ANY civil war battle dressed as they are.By making them so 'generic' automatically puts them out of reach for the more authenticity minded collector.
Jeff

 

[Spitfrnd]

I'm sure if you spend some time reading the link that I posted until the next time your allowed to debate you'll find the it was formed as a Welsh Regiment from the get go and as you stated became known as the SWB. You'll note once you read what's contain in the link they were known as both the 1st and 2nd Battalions 24th(2nd Warwickshire) Regiment of Foot formed in Wales and a Welsh Regiment at the battles of Isandlwana and Rorke's Drift and throughout the Zulu War. Spend some time reading the link which will confirm what I've said.

I don't know if that link is dispositive on the matter. I think the confusion comes from the fact that the 24th was formed as a Warwickshire Regiment and there were certainly other Welsh units, such as the 23rd Foot. The transition appears to have been gradual and progressed from the regiment's recruiting in Wales which was underway well prior to the Drift. This excerpt for the following link may be helpful but does not really say how many in the company were Welsh:

In 1881, when the 41st and 69th became the Welch Regiment, the 24th, which already had two battalions, simply changed its name to the South Wales Borderers, and various south Welsh volunteer and militia battalions were formerly affiliated to it. During the Zulu War, although the Regiment had been recruiting in South Wales and its Depot was Brecon from 1873, it was technically still officially named the 24th(2nd Warwickshire) Regiment of Foot.
http://www.fortyfirst.org/writings/chapter11.htm

It is important to remember that the unit at the Drift was just a company, which could very well have had a different regional composition than the rest of the regiment. Interestingly, since they were only a company, they were not eligible for a battle honor for perhaps the most famous battle ever fought by a British unit.

 

[Spitfrnd]

FWIW, this WalesOnline article offers some more insight into the nature of the 24th at the Drift, indicating that among the defenders were 49 English, 32 Welsh, 16 Irish and 22 men of other nationalities. Of course, Stanley Baker was Welsh.
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/w...r-made-zulu-his-welsh-western-91466-21962500/

 

[aujj65]

Try this link from the The Royal Regiment of Wales http://www.rrw.org.uk/regiment/history.htm

Jeff

 

[Spitfrnd]

Try this link from the The Royal Regiment of Wales http://www.rrw.org.uk/regiment/history.htm

Jeff

Yes I saw that one too Jeff. It does confirm the official change in names in 1881 but doesn't have the detail or explanations noted in the other two sources. Ian Knight's Osprey title on the Drift also notes that while the 24th did have a recruiting depot in Wales and several Welsh recruits, it was not officially or even predominently a Welsh unit at that time.

 

[The Military Workshop]

Jeff (Tulloch),
So not only can you not do Gettysburg but can't do any part of the ACW using several manufacturers. And if you want to do Gettysburg only some recent Britains will do. Lucky I do not collect ACW.
I do however have some French Dragoons on foot advancing towards Black Watch which I think may not be factually correct but it does look great.

Spitfrnd,
Thanks for the interesting points regarding make up of defenders. I never thought about the Battle Honour aspect but does that mean they have Ishandhwlana as a battle honour ?

Regards
Brett

 

[damian]

Some people care about accuracy and some are less concerned. It is no point in arguing over the merits. That is why I suggested an accuracy thread where the "rivet counters" can discuss the nitty gritty to their hearts content without disturbing the Disney type collectors.

 

[Njja]

Some people care about accuracy and some are less concerned. It is no point in arguing over the merits. That is why I suggested an accuracy thread where the "rivet counters" can discuss the nitty gritty to their hearts content without disturbing the Disney type collectors.

....................................................................................................

"Disney type collectors" I resent that remark.....why I stopped making

engine sounds when I play with my figures.......just last week!

 

[The Military Workshop]

Damian,
Can you come up with another option in addition to "Rivet counters" and "Disney type collectors" ? I think I am somewhere in the middle !!!
No doubt some members will be looking at their Mickey and Minnie collections with great pride (please note I have nothing against mice )
Regards
Brett

 

[tullock]

Jeff (Tulloch),
So not only can you not do Gettysburg but can't do any part of the ACW using several manufacturers. And if you want to do Gettysburg only some recent Britains will do. Lucky I do not collect ACW.
I do however have some French Dragoons on foot advancing towards Black Watch which I think may not be factually correct but it does look great.

Spitfrnd,
Thanks for the interesting points regarding make up of defenders. I never thought about the Battle Honour aspect but does that mean they have Ishandhwlana as a battle honour ?

Regards
Brett

Brett,
As Damian has said 'everyone to his own'.I personally like the accuracy bit and if others don't give a hoot,that is upto them.To answer your question......At Gettysburg the bulk of Lee's army wore new Richmond Depot uniforms (the rest wore State issues).No rags,no patches.Only Britains do the Richmond clothing.I totally agree about the accuracy thread.
Jeff

 

[The Military Workshop]

Jeff,
I do agree an accuracy thread would be worhwhile / interesting as there are some very knowledgeable forum members around. Might help or encourage manufacturers which can only be a good thing.
However we should not expect manufacturers to be experts on all areas of history or vehicles etc and as the saying goes you can not please all of the people all of the time.
Regards
Brett

 

[Spitfrnd]

....Spitfrnd,
Thanks for the interesting points regarding make up of defenders. I never thought about the Battle Honour aspect but does that mean they have Ishandhwlana as a battle honour ?

Regards
Brett

They did not recieve battle honours for the battle despite their brave defense. They did recieve a battle honour for the Zulu War campaign. The 24th has many battle honours, including the campaign and most battles of the Peninsular War, as well as WWI and WWII.

From what I have read, British battle honours are seldom, if ever, awarded for defeats or below the battalion level. If you want to know more about the system that is a book on it available at the National Library in Canberra.
http://catalogue.nla.gov.au/Record/982464

Damian, "Disney Collectors", now that hurts mate. How did you know I like Disney movies and practically grew up on Zorro.

Just remember, just because I said I may not be constrained by certain irregularities for my displays doesn't mean I don't know the difference or don't appreciate it when it is done right.

 

[damian]

I ask this out of ignorance so please go easy.
I know that the British regimental system is fairly unique with its emphasis on the regiment and it's traditions and colors etc.
Do American units have Battle Honors and Colors like the British and Commonwealth Units?

 

[Spitfrnd]

I ask this out of ignorance so please go easy.
I know that the British regimental system is fairly unique with its emphasis on the regiment and it's traditions and colors etc.
Do American units have Battle Honors and Colors like the British and Commonwealth Units?

American units certainly have colors but not battle honours. The equivalent I think would be unit citations and campaign streamers but I am not as familiar with US military history and pilots don't parade very much.

 

[BeaconsAl]

Hello
I can not believe that many collectors would want historically inaccurate figures. Interest in military history is what led me into the hobby in the first place and I want a true representation of what happened in the past. Still, I'm new to the hobby and am interested in what others think.

Al [first post!]

 

[tullock]

Hello
I can not believe that many collectors would want historically inaccurate figures. Interest in military history is what led me into the hobby in the first place and I want a true representation of what happened in the past. Still, I'm new to the hobby and am interested in what others think.

Al [first post!]

I'm in full agreement with you,but unfortunately many others in this hobby do not share our views.When airing my grievances on this subject I have recieved replies from manufacturers stating 'If you don't like our products then set up your own toy soldier company'! Now can you imagine buying a Ferrari,finding some faults with it and then contacting the manufacturer,only to be told...."Set up your own car company if you don't like it".I think not.
Welcome to the board.
Jeff

 

[Spitfrnd]

I'm in full agreement with you,but unfortunately many others in this hobby do not share our views.When airing my grievances on this subject I have recieved replies from manufacturers stating 'If you don't like our products then set up your own toy soldier company'! Now can you imagine buying a Ferrari,finding some faults with it and then contacting the manufacturer,only to be told...."Set up your own car company if you don't like it".I think not.
Welcome to the board.
Jeff

Well actually Jeff, that is exactly what I would expect any car manufacturer to say, perhaps in a pleasant way. I know Mercedes has said just that to me.

As to historical accuracy, it is important to draw the distinctions noted between the impossible and the possible but perhaps not actual. Of course, what is actual in history is not always completely clear.

 

[Deitz]

I want historical accuracy up to a point, but I do not care if the paint is a little off color or if the rivet count is off. If the figure or set is nice looking to me and it fits into my current collection I will buy it. Maybe in the future historical accuracy will be more important to me.

 

[Wraith]

Well actually Jeff, that is exactly what I would expect any car manufacturer to say, perhaps in a pleasant way. I know Mercedes has said just that to me.

Was your Merc the wrong shade of Dunklegelb as well?