Historical Accuracy (1 Viewer)

[panda1gen]

http://www.panzerworld.net/zimmerit

Scroll down to the pattern section. The HB piece looks like pattern 2 which according to this site has only been seen on the Ausf.G. That said, it is a valid pattern and I think the scale looks good.

Thanks again for the info, amazing knowledge and references on this forum

 

[panda1gen]

Well the one I had was but I traded it in for a fine British alternative, which is also green. It is my first of those and likely the closest I will now get to an real Spitfire.

A triumph in racing green?

 

[Phantom Warrior]

The unit emblem on the summer camo version could also be 19.Pz.Div.

http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=1292

http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gliederungen/Panzerdivisionen/Gliederung.htm

That opens a whole can of worms Frank. The Wolf's Hook symbol was used by the Totenkopf Division with the Z in a horizontal position with arms as long as the trunk of the Z. The Trunk was slanted and the arms were straight out from the trunk. The symbol was almost square in dimensions. The Polizei Division used it in a vertical position known as the Donnerkeil {Thunderbolt} also with the trunk of the Z at an angle but much shorter arms also straight out from the trunk. The symbol is rectangular in dimensions. The K&C version has that type of symbol, but it is not on a shield as would be typical for an SS division. The Wolf's Hook symbol used by the 19th Panzer Division has an elongated vertical (not slanted) trunk and very short arms at an angle from the vertical trunk. Similar to the Polizei symbol, but different.

Terry

 

[tullock]

I agree, the 251/22 should not have been described as being a Normandy (unless you count the penetration of German armoured units during the Battle of the Bulge ), but the book Waffen SS Divisions 1939 - 1945 Chris Bishop - shows the 2SS Das Reich having the 251/22. But aside from that, you say the 9th Panzer and the Fuhrer Begleit Brigade did have them towards the end of the Bulge battle. So the K&C error was saying they were in Normandy, implying an earlier introduction to battle than was actual. Otherwise, the winter camo or 3 colour camo versions could have been at the Bulge and were valid for the Winter and Spring/Summer of 1945. I am OK with ignoring the K&C Normandy description - it wouldn't be the first time.

Also in error is the division symbol on the rear of the summer camo version which is that of the 4th SS Polizei Panzergrenadier Division which was never near Normandy or the Battle of the Bulge, and was retreating from the Balkans in 1944 then was fighting in Hungary, Slovakia and eventually in Prussia in 1945. The Division was equipped with Panzerjager Batallion with 2 Kompanies of 14 Jagdpanzers each, and a motorized Kompanie of 17 towed Pak 40 anti-tank guns to which I believe were added some 251/22 in 1945. So the K&C 251/22 summer camo could be from the Polizei Division in 1945 east of Germany and would be correct there. So the model is ok but it's description is wrong.

I don't have the white version, so I cannot comment on it as to division symbols.

Terry

One problem though.The Polizei Division doesn't seem to have recieved any of these vehicles.I would tend to go for the 19th PZ.Eastern Front.March-April 1945.
Jeff

 

[Phantom Warrior]

One problem though.The Polizei Division doesn't seem to have recieved any of these vehicles.I would tend to go for the 19th PZ.Eastern Front.March-April 1945.
Jeff

If they didn't receive any SdKfz 251/22, then the symbol on the model, which is definitely that of the Polizei, would be incorrect. The symbol on the model is not the symbol of the 19th Pz.

Terry

 

[tullock]

If they didn't receive any SdKfz 251/22, then the symbol on the model, which is definitely that of the Polizei, would be incorrect. The symbol on the model is not the symbol of the 19th Pz.

Terry

Sorry,my mistake.I read your earlier post incorrectly.
Jeff

 

[Phantom Warrior]

One problem though.The Polizei Division doesn't seem to have recieved any of these vehicles.I would tend to go for the 19th PZ.Eastern Front.March-April 1945.
Jeff

I really wonder if the Polizei did receve some 251/22. While they were poorly equipped at the beginning, by late in the war they were substantially upgraded with a very strong anti-tank component. That type of Division should have been in line for some 251/22.

Terry

 

[Spitfrnd]

A triumph in racing green?

That would have been a fine choice but harder to find. I went with a British cat, a very fast one.

 

[tullock]

I really wonder if the Polizei did receve some 251/22. While they were poorly equipped at the beginning, by late in the war they were substantially upgraded with a very strong anti-tank component. That type of Division should have been in line for some 251/22.

Terry

If this were the case then all the other 'premier' SS Divisions should have also recieved them,but they didn't.Only 12SS.All of the 268 that were issued have been accounted for.
Jeff

 

[fmethorst]

Terry, does the crew look Heer or SS to you?

 

[Phantom Warrior]

Terry, does the crew look Heer or SS to you?

I'm not an expret on uniforms. But I did read "With the formations of the SS-Divisions Totenkopf and Polizei, the SS had little choice but to outfit these Divisions with Heer uniforms, albeit with appropriate insignia. By May 1940, Heer uniforms were standard throughout the SS-VT and the Waffen-SS as a whole."

So that could make it more difficult. Here is a photo of the crew.

Terry

 

[panda1gen]

That would have been a fine choice but harder to find. I went with a British cat, a very fast one.

AAAHHHHHH........................South American origin?

A better choice methinks.......

 

[lancer]

JHO, but based on the uniforms, they are Heer. There is no eagle on the left arm and this is almost a guarantee that they are not SS. Also the sidecap of one soldier has the Heer emblem (black, white, red disc) instead of the SS Totenkopf. Finally, the camo pants are Heer pattern, not SS, although items of clothing certainly interchanged. The capper, though, is the lack of an eagle on the left arm. -- lancer

 

[tullock]

Both 251/22 vehicles have Heer number plates.The 'Normandy' vehicle has the markings of the SS Polizei Division and of an armoured panzergrenadier battalion.The uniforms appear to be Heer tank/assault gun uniforms,so there are lots of contradictions there.Another point is that the Polizei Division never had this type of vehicle issued to it nor did it possess an armoured PG Bn.All its panzergrenadiers were motorized.
Out of an authorised allocation of 22 sdkfz 251s the 'Polizie' Division had (as of January 1945) just 10 such vehicles comprising 4 x 251/3,3 x 251/7 and 3 x 251/8.A further 2 x 251/3 and 3 x 251/9 were in the process of delivery of which 2 were delivered in late January.It had recieved no other 251s before the war ended.
Jeff

 

[Phantom Warrior]

JHO, but based on the uniforms, they are Heer. There is no eagle on the left arm and this is almost a guarantee that they are not SS. Also the sidecap of one soldier has the Heer emblem (black, white, red disc) instead of the SS Totenkopf. Finally, the camo pants are Heer pattern, not SS, although items of clothing certainly interchanged. The capper, though, is the lack of an eagle on the left arm. -- lancer

Thanks for the analysis. If they were SS, they would have been from the Policei Division , not the Totenkopf according to the divisional symbol on the 251/22. And since they are clearly Heer uniforms, Either the division symbol is wrong or the uniforms are. Here are the similar symbols of the Polizei and 19th Panzer Divisions

Terry

 

[fmethorst]

Ah yes, the vehicle number plate that's the dead give away, thanks Jeff. WH (Wehrmacht Heer)

As has been noted the uniforms are Heer as well, thanks for the pics. For reference here is a replica SS Assault Gun jacket. Note how on the SS jacket the closure has a straight cut compared to the Heer angular cut. As has been noted the placement of the insignia is different too.

Now that raises the question did Panzerjager troops wear assault gun jackets?

 

[Phantom Warrior]

Both 251/22 vehicles have Heer number plates.The 'Normandy' vehicle has the markings of the SS Polizei Division and of an armoured panzergrenadier battalion.The uniforms appear to be Heer tank/assault gun uniforms,so there are lots of contradictions there.Another point is that the Polizei Division never had this type of vehicle issued to it nor did it possess an armoured PG Bn.All its panzergrenadiers were motorized.
Out of an authorised allocation of 22 sdkfz 251s the 'Polizie' Division had (as of January 1945) just 10 such vehicles comprising 4 x 251/3,3 x 251/7 and 3 x 251/8.A further 2 x 251/3 and 3 x 251/9 were in the process of delivery of which 2 were delivered in late January.It had recieved no other 251s before the war ended.
Jeff

So all it needed to be correct (ignoring the K7C description) was to not have the symbol of the SS Polizei Division. It could have had no unit symbol or one of the Heer Division symbols which did receive the vehicle. And while not at Normandy and probably not at the Bulge, the model is appropriate for 1945 Eastern and Western Fronts in both winter and summer camo, although that late in the war, it may have been repainted with a dark red basecoat when the Pak 40 was installed?

Terry

 

[tullock]

So all it needed to be correct (ignoring the K7C description) was to not have the symbol of the SS Polizei Division. It could have had no unit symbol or one of the Heer Division symbols which did receive the vehicle. And while not at Normandy and probably not at the Bulge, the model is appropriate for 1945 Eastern and Western Fronts in both winter and summer camo, although that late in the war, it may have been repainted with a dark red basecoat when the Pak 40 was installed?

Terry

Agreed!Although I would replace the Panzergrenadier tactical sign with a Panzerjager one.
Jeff