Historically Accurate (1 Viewer)

[sceic2]

I don't believe that King & Country has ever sold itself as being "historically accurate." I don't remember reading any sales material, web site information, or product description of any King & Country product describing it as "historically accurate." If someone has better information or a better memory, please help me to remember when and where this theme was used to sell toy soldiers or vehicles.

NOTE: I started this thread as a result of a discussion on another thread concerning a completely different topic (New EA sets-who got them?).

The topic of discussion is - US flags on some airborne troops in the D-Day series that should not have been on them. I personally don’t know if they were or were not worn, but a forum member has contacted one of the fellows from the original unit and has verified that the flags were not worn. I believe that forum member’s information.

Now let’s begin a conversation about K&C, toy soldiers, and historical accuracy in general.

 

[Combat]

I don't believe that King & Country has ever sold itself as being "historically accurate." I don't remember reading any sales material, web site information, or product description of any King & Country product describing it as "historically accurate." If someone has better information or a better memory, please help me to remember when and where this theme was used to sell toy soldiers or vehicles.

NOTE: I started this thread as a result of a discussion on another thread concerning a completely different topic (New EA sets-who got them?).

The topic of discussion is - US flags on some airborne troops in the D-Day series that should not have been on them. I personally don’t know if they were or were not worn, but a forum member has contacted one of the fellows from the original unit and has verified that the flags were not worn. I believe that forum member’s information.

Now let’s begin a conversation about K&C, toy soldiers, and historical accuracy in general.

Your a brave man Michael! I think it is inevitable that some mistakes will be made given the scope of uniforms, equipment and vehicles produced not only in WWII but in other historical periods produced. There are experts out there on everything (boots, shirts, medals, caps), but they can't all work for KC. The error pointed out on the other thread is probably one that KC should have caught, but even "The Longest Day" made the exact same mistake. Not to let Andy off the hook, I think it is important to get it right, but we also have to be reasonable in our expectations.

 

[Toy Soldier Brigade]

I personally don't buy toy soldiers because I expect 100% historical accuracy. They're TOYS ! I collect them because I like looking at them, and they are a reasonable representation of the subject. King & Country Airborne - Cool with or without flags. If I wanted to nitpick I could bring up the subject of GREEN US rifle slings What happened to the good old brown leather US M1907 rifle slings

 

[Pierre]

I share the opinion of Combat in respect of Michael. This solution is an intelligent one. Félicitations!

Pierre.

P.S. I do not collect K&C for accuracy but because I love military miniatures and that they are the best. Simple as that.

 

[Steven Chong]

I don't believe that King & Country has ever sold itself as being "historically accurate." I don't remember reading any sales material, web site information, or product description of any King & Country product describing it as "historically accurate" ...

K&C's motto is "Authentic Hand-Made History." This motto is prominently displayed in yellow letters and a red box below the K&C name on flyers and on the WWII boxes. The definition of "authentic" is "genuine" or "real." We can endlessly argue whether "authentic" history implies historically accuracy, but I think it is merely a nice marketing slogan which attempts to associate K&C with genuine or real history.

However, the text on the "Fighting Vehicles" boxes includes the following words: "... our improved design, sculpting and handpainting coupled with technical accuracy ..." Arguably, K&C WWII vehicles can be held to a higher standard of accuracy.

 

[sceic2]

My own personal opinion regarding historical accuracy is that I want what I purchase to be as close as possible to the real thing. But I also understand the world is not perfect and I will accept what is reasonable and close.

If I want historical accuracy, I will build scale models. Kit bashing based on real pictures and data from manufacturers and the service where the item was or is used makes the accuracy true. Scale modeling presents the opportunity to become anal-retentive/obsessive with accuracy. Toy soldiers are representations that are currently close enough to satisfy my needs and spending habits. ln other words, I likes what I likes and I buy what I wants, and I wants it all.

 

[sceic2]

K&C's motto is "Authentic Hand-Made History." This motto is prominently displayed in yellow letters and a red box below the K&C name on flyers and on the WWII boxes. The definition of "authentic" is "genuine" or "real." We can endlessly argue whether "authentic" history implies historically accuracy, but I think it is merely a nice marketing slogan which attempts to associate K&C with genuine or real history.

However, the text on the "Fighting Vehicles" boxes includes the following words: "... our improved design, sculpting and handpainting coupled with technical accuracy ..." Arguably, K&C WWII vehicles can be held to a higher standard of accuracy.

I stand corrected on my memory and ability to read (or not read) the many boxes now filling my home. But my opinion in my previous post still stands regarding historical accuracy - close is good enough and mistakes happen, so I will get on with it. Currently the military channel is showing several WWII Battlefront shows back-to-back and I must check my men and vehicles to see if they are as presented.

 

[binder001]

On one hand I understand that these are "military collectibles" versus scale models. I will give Andy, et.al. a little elbow room on their inaccuracies. My BIG problem is with preventable errors. For instance, if a manufacturer launches ahead with poor resource data, when all they had to do was come and ask some of us, then I have less forgiveness. They should use the expertise of some of us who have taken the time to study our areas in depth. The fact that the 101st didn't use the flag patches on DDay is a little arcane, but is available on several websites.

Gary

 

[OzDigger]

King and Country have certainly produced some notable errors over the years. I understand the flag issue caused some concern to some, but to me it wasn't a major concern as small detail errors like that do creep in on occassions. And of course King and Country aren't the only company that makes mistakes like that. For example Corgi are always making errors with their 1/72 aircraft models, and these are quickly ponced on by the rivet counters in that area. It's usually guys that have put together plastic kits for many years and demand a high level of accuracy and finish. The fact is that premade models and figures will rarely be as accurate in their historical integrity, detail or finish as a model assembled and finished by an experienced and clever model maker.

Most premade models and figures are executed by workers that don't speak English well, have never seen the real article and have no real interest in the subject or the accuracy of the product. They are just workers paid to make products on an assembly line. Therefore the responsibility for the accuracy is entirely in the hands of the people that own the company or those appointed by that company to ensure an accurate and well finished model or figure is produced.

Personally I can forgive errors that the average collector would not realise such as the flag problem. However I do feel King and Country should exercise more care as they promote themselves as being producers of accurate and fine military collectables.

Imo there is some excuse for an incorrect flag patch but no excuse for obvious errors that should be recalled or appologies issued. For example the clearly incorrect positioning of the telescopic-sight on the firearm of the third figure from the left pictured below:

 

[Louis Badolato]

Historical accuracy is of course very important. King & Country toy soldiers are more than mere toys, they are more "military miniatures" aimed at adult collectors, and I hold Andy to a higher standard of accuracy than I would a producer of glossy toy soldiers aimed at children.

Errors will occur, and when they do, they should be pointed out, so Andy can correct them on future releases. Catching the flag patch error is important, because it educates us, corrects an error, and stimulates discussion.

That being said, I know that Andy spends a considerable amount of time researching his subjects. Whenever I have spent any time with him I have personally seen him obtaining books on uniforms, equipment and fighting vehicles (just attend a show with him, and you will see him snap up 5 or 6 books). So if you catch Andy on a slip up, let me know, I like to give him a good natured hard time as much a the next guy!

 

[desk11desk12]

My own personal opinion regarding historical accuracy is that I want what I purchase to be as close as possible to the real thing. But I also understand the world is not perfect and I will accept what is reasonable and close.

If I want historical accuracy, I will build scale models. Kit bashing based on real pictures and data from manufacturers and the service where the item was or is used makes the accuracy true. Scale modeling presents the opportunity to become anal-retentive/obsessive with accuracy. Toy soldiers are representations that are currently close enough to satisfy my needs and spending habits. ln other words, I likes what I likes and I buy what I wants, and I wants it all.

Michael,

First thank you very much for starting this thread for this discussion, it’s smart on two accounts. First, it diffuses the misdirected passion away from a great KC release (EA) and directs the passion and the discussion into its own thread where it belongs. Kudos to you!

Second I agree with you hole hardily on this subject, accuracy is important objective but it isn’t the singularly most important attribute in the toy solider miniature world. However, like most markets each of us can vote our approval of the goods available with our purchasing dollar.

Carlos

PS, I look forward in receiving the EA series this week and the new DD series in June. However Andy…8th Army needs more armor, Rummel is advancing with his Panzer korp….LOL

 

[binder001]

One of the GREAT things about Andy and K&C is that they DO care and try not to repeat errors. His stuff just keeps getting better, because he listens and learns. There are some "scale model" companies that don't care near as much about their products and accuracy. So, it actually becomes a challenge to find any of Andy's perceived errors. I say "perceived errors" becuase he will often come up with a photo or reference of what he is depicting.

Anyway the product just keeps getting better, so I'll keep buying! The only reasons that I haven't bought a bunch of North African WW2 stuff is 1) tighter budget this year and 2) no place to display it. Otherwise I would be all over that stuff.

Gary

 

[Firebat]

Your a brave man Michael! I think it is inevitable that some mistakes will be made given the scope of uniforms, equipment and vehicles produced not only in WWII but in other historical periods produced. There are experts out there on everything (boots, shirts, medals, caps), but they can't all work for KC. The error pointed out on the other thread is probably one that KC should have caught, but even "The Longest Day" made the exact same mistake. Not to let Andy off the hook, I think it is important to get it right, but we also have to be reasonable in our expectations.

Congratulations you have taken the first step in improving your hobby......My frankness and honesty spurred you to start this thread, and of that I am proud. Gentlemen enjoy........ it was interesting spending this brief time with you. I think one day my scale hobby and your toy soldiers will be one and the same. Maybe we can break bread again sometime. Sorry for all if the inconvenience I caused you.............Alex

 

[Combat]

I am not familar with the 1/35 stuff that has been mentioned in several posts. What is it and why exactly is that considered more historically accurate? As an aside, I know that there is a business element to the market (ie producers want to sell). So, in addition to oversight mistakes, there are some intentional differences that producers introduce to make the items more attractive to customers. Have seen Roman generals that look like russell crowe, pharohs like yul brenner, knights on horses much larger than historically accurate.

 

[Eazy]

Congratulations you have taken the first step in improving your hobby......My frankness and honesty spurred you to start this thread, and of that I am proud. Gentlemen enjoy........ it was interesting spending this brief time with you. I think one day my scale hobby and your toy soldiers will be one and the same. Maybe we can break bread again sometime. Sorry for all if the inconvenience I caused you.............Alex

I'm not sure if this guy is entirely serious or just trolling around. He seems very modest at any rate.

Anyway here's a question for the accuracy guys. Did the SS in 1944 still have the SS runes and national symbol on thier helmets?

 

[CannonFodder1971]

I'm not sure if this guy is entirely serious or just trolling around. He seems very modest at any rate.

Actually if you read Alex/Firebat's post he claims that his "frankness and honestly" has "spurred" us to start a thread on accuracy, something which has been the subject of numerous previous threads, including his own comments the re WS67 and WS71 paint schemes. Hardly modest. And the scurrilous claim that he would for some reason be censored was an act of dishonour, an attack on Shannon's right to good name and assault on the manner in which this forum has been moderated over the past 1½ years of its existence.

I welcome all views on the forum and hope that Firebat continues to contribute, but some actual modestly would have been welcome.

 

[Eazy]

Soz Fodder i was being sarcastic about his modesty. Brits can forget thet sarcasm doesnt translate well.

My personal opinion is that the guy was a "troll". Which is a term for someone who appears on a forum. winds people up and then disappears. It's pretty common.

 

[sceic2]

If I were able to fully express my opinion without offending any of my friends, I would be able to say that guy is full of .... well, I do want to be polite and not offend so I used a form of self censorship, but you know what I mean.

 

[jazzeum]

I would rather we not speculate about a person's motives for staying or not staying or characterizing them "trolls" or such. Alex had a lot to offer and knew what he was talking about historically. As a rule, I don't like anybody to leave.

Why don't we leave it at that.

 

[Firebat]

If I were able to fully express my opinion without offending any of my friends, I would be able to say that guy is full of .... well, I do want to be polite and not offend so I used a form of self censorship, but you know what I mean.

They didn't shut me down yet, just keep in mind here is the quote that started all of this BS. FIREBAT 05-28-06 I was disappointed to see the 101st with the flag patch..........Highly offensive.....then came the onslaught of the GOD Andy worshipers.....I leave with a clear conscience.....man you guys are something....I was here to be a friend and share whatever talent I had.....Please remember the 343 Brothers...Thanks