How Does TG Remain So Affordable? Just Love It!!! (1 Viewer)

[Bayern]

In business today material costs have sky rocketed. In my own business petrol and metal rising costs have had a great impact.

How does TG do it? Providing the top quality product for such a wonderful price. Roughly 10.00 American less then competitors, some that are two and three times larger.

I would have to say that Mr. Gunn has mastered this business and overhead concerns to be able to do this for us collectors.

Whatever you are doing Thomas.......keep it up. You make it so I can do more with my money.

I am in for the long haul.

Ludwig

 

[Napoleon1er]

One could say it was just good business intellect- but that goes two ways:
1-He uses limited editions and 2 versions of sets to optimize sales.
2- TS profit margins are fairly large- to make a TG/K&C/JJ/Britains/Figarti figure costs significantly less than one would think. I know prices are rising, but though that has shrunk margins slightly, it really does not completely justify price increases, UNLESS you think of the larger business costs of K&C/Britains/Figarti, which have to make large profits per figure to support growth, development, etc... that simply isn't a large cost for TG and JJ, enabling them to keep prices down. I rarely speak to this issue, as it does shed a slightly negative light on almost all companies, but really price increases are often done because they CAN do them. I think $30 for foot and $75 for mounted is reasonable, with maybe +$5 for K&C and any "higher end" figures from TG/JJ/Britains/Figarti, and maybe $40/$90 for FL.

 

[nysoldiers]

I have been involved with Asian manufacturing for almost 40 years. This included very skilled labor and complicated assembiies. Through my contacts and VERY reliable sources I believe the profit margins for many of the toy soldier makers in China are significantly higher than other industries. The prices mentioned below ($30/$75 and $40/$90) would afford very reasonable profits to the makers and more reasonable prices for their customers.
Might also help to expand the hobby.
The market will decide the pricing in the long run. I am more selective these days due to pricing and others should be as well. Consumers have power if they are educated buyers.
Recently I hired several art students to paint some castings for me. I supplied the materials and either a painted figure or artwork for them to copy. The results were amazing. Comprable paint jobs to K&C and even FL.
They were thrilled to be paid about $15 to $20 for infantry and $30 to $40 for cavalry. There is no fancy packaging and "brand name" of course but my cost was almost 50% less than buying retail.
The caveat is that some makers do appreciate in value over time and my locally painted figures may not.

 

[Bayern]

I have been involved with Asian manufacturing for almost 40 years. This included very skilled labor and complicated assembiies. Through my contacts and VERY reliable sources I believe the profit margins for many of the toy soldier makers in China are significantly higher than other industries. The prices mentioned below ($30/$75 and $40/$90) would afford very reasonable profits to the makers and more reasonable prices for their customers.
Might also help to expand the hobby.
The market will decide the pricing in the long run. I am more selective these days due to pricing and others should be as well. Consumers have power if they are educated buyers.
Recently I hired several art students to paint some castings for me. I supplied the materials and either a painted figure or artwork for them to copy. The results were amazing. Comprable paint jobs to K&C and even FL.
They were thrilled to be paid about $15 to $20 for infantry and $30 to $40 for cavalry. There is no fancy packaging and "brand name" of course but my cost was almost 50% less than buying retail.
The caveat is that some makers do appreciate in value over time and my locally painted figures may not.

One could say it was just good business intellect- but that goes two ways:
1-He uses limited editions and 2 versions of sets to optimize sales.
2- TS profit margins are fairly large- to make a TG/K&C/JJ/Britains/Figarti figure costs significantly less than one would think. I know prices are rising, but though that has shrunk margins slightly, it really does not completely justify price increases, UNLESS you think of the larger business costs of K&C/Britains/Figarti, which have to make large profits per figure to support growth, development, etc... that simply isn't a large cost for TG and JJ, enabling them to keep prices down. I rarely speak to this issue, as it does shed a slightly negative light on almost all companies, but really price increases are often done because they CAN do them. I think $30 for foot and $75 for mounted is reasonable, with maybe +$5 for K&C and any "higher end" figures from TG/JJ/Britains/Figarti, and maybe $40/$90 for FL.

I would like to say thank you to both of you for your excellent responses.

NYSoldiers. I also have a commodity line that affords me information in the trade. I completely agree with your assessment. Accepting a more moderate profit for a few of the other makers would put the price range back in line as you have astutely noted. As well as revamping there operations and overhead. I completely agree with your 30 foot 75 mounted. I earnestly believe that other makers rising so quickly and significantly higher to the 40's/ 50's for foot and over 100 for the mounted have in affect created for line release loss, loss of buyers and lack of draw to potential new collectors. It is clearly evident in what and how much is released.

Your statement of "might help to expand the hobby" is so true and the best thing said. If this market keeps pricing itself so high the hobby will eventually end. I want my great grand children to come to have the ability to continue the hobby.

Napoleon1er. Great assessment of what I am sure is part of TG's creed and business success. I also agree with you on rarely entertaining the subject. On the Brand X site it draws so much critisism from the flag wavers.

To both you Gentlemen...I bid you good day!!!

Ludwig von Bayern

 

[Von Lettow Vorbeck]

I would like to say thank you to both of you for your excellent responses.

NYSoldiers. I also have a commodity line that affords me information in the trade. I completely agree with your assessment. Accepting a more moderate profit for a few of the other makers would put the price range back in line as you have astutely noted. As well as revamping there operations and overhead. I completely agree with your 30 foot 75 mounted. I earnestly believe that other makers rising so quickly and significantly higher to the 40's/ 50's for foot and over 100 for the mounted have in affect created for line release loss, loss of buyers and lack of draw to potential new collectors. It is clearly evident in what and how much is released.

Your statement of "might help to expand the hobby" is so true and the best thing said. If this market keeps pricing itself so high the hobby will eventually end. I want my great grand children to come to have the ability to continue the hobby.

Napoleon1er. Great assessment of what I am sure is part of TG's creed and business success. I also agree with you on rarely entertaining the subject. On the Brand X site it draws so much critisism from the flag wavers.

To both you Gentlemen...I bid you good day!!!

Ludwig von Bayern

I like all of these points of view. Good topic.

Gerhard

 

[Hadrian]

I have been involved with Asian manufacturing for almost 40 years. This included very skilled labor and complicated assembiies. Through my contacts and VERY reliable sources I believe the profit margins for many of the toy soldier makers in China are significantly higher than other industries. The prices mentioned below ($30/$75 and $40/$90) would afford very reasonable profits to the makers and more reasonable prices for their customers.
Might also help to expand the hobby.
The market will decide the pricing in the long run. I am more selective these days due to pricing and others should be as well. Consumers have power if they are educated buyers.
Recently I hired several art students to paint some castings for me. I supplied the materials and either a painted figure or artwork for them to copy. The results were amazing. Comprable paint jobs to K&C and even FL.
They were thrilled to be paid about $15 to $20 for infantry and $30 to $40 for cavalry. There is no fancy packaging and "brand name" of course but my cost was almost 50% less than buying retail.
The caveat is that some makers do appreciate in value over time and my locally painted figures may not.

I am very sorry, but in my eyes your calculation is not fair. If you give your painters 20 $ for the painting, you have to add the costs for the casting at least. And if you like to have a casting of the same quality like the K&C, FL figures, you have to pay another 15 $ at least. How about the materials, which need your students for their painting job ? That costs something as well. After all, you will have the same price as the producers. Not to forget, that there is one big point, which is to be known: the transport costs a lot from HK/China to Europe or USA. The price increase reg.transport is heavy and not under control of the producer.
This is just my personal point of view as a dealer and as a private collector.

 

[Napoleon1er]

I am very sorry, but in my eyes your calculation is not fair. If you give your painters 20 $ for the painting, you have to add the costs for the casting at least. And if you like to have a casting of the same quality like the K&C, FL figures, you have to pay another 15 $ at least. How about the materials, which need your students for their painting job ? That costs something as well. After all, you will have the same price as the producers. Not to forget, that there is one big point, which is to be known: the transport costs a lot from HK/China to Europe or USA. The price increase reg.transport is heavy and not under control of the producer.
This is just my personal point of view as a dealer and as a private collector.

He is paying domestic, professional painters (who ALREADY have the painting materials) to paint his castings. A good casting can be purchased at $5-15 (http://www.whitemetalmail.com/napoleonic-wars.html), so We have $25, plus MAYBE $15 shipping for 10-20 figures. So $20-$30 would be the total- not bad. Now the painting for the big guys is pretty cheap-around $3-$5. The casting is very cheap $1-2. When you divide shipping, you have an extra $3 MAYBE. SO that would be $10 cost, and if you add in $10 (again, that is per figure, so in an edition of 500, that would be 5,000) to pay the painter and sculptor, you have $20, leaving a $10 profit margin on most figures, which is not bad for today's market. I am not pulling these numbers out of a glengarry. Let's just go with the statement that someone told me cost per figure was around 1/3 of the $32 price, except for FL, where it is also 1/3, but of their $45 price.

 

[Mike97]

I have been involved with Asian manufacturing for almost 40 years. This included very skilled labor and complicated assembiies. Through my contacts and VERY reliable sources I believe the profit margins for many of the toy soldier makers in China are significantly higher than other industries. The prices mentioned below ($30/$75 and $40/$90) would afford very reasonable profits to the makers and more reasonable prices for their customers.
Might also help to expand the hobby.
The market will decide the pricing in the long run. I am more selective these days due to pricing and others should be as well. Consumers have power if they are educated buyers.
Recently I hired several art students to paint some castings for me. I supplied the materials and either a painted figure or artwork for them to copy. The results were amazing. Comprable paint jobs to K&C and even FL.
They were thrilled to be paid about $15 to $20 for infantry and $30 to $40 for cavalry. There is no fancy packaging and "brand name" of course but my cost was almost 50% less than buying retail.
The caveat is that some makers do appreciate in value over time and my locally painted figures may not.

Great thread. Can you post pictures of your locally painted figures ? Would love to see samples of the work.
mike

 

[Firebat]

Battle Scene Productions is looking into doing our own line of figures we have everything lined up except for a sculptor. Most of the cost figures I am seeing here are accurate, we figured about $15 to product a top line figure. But if we cant find a sculptor it is not going to happen.

 

[Bayern]

Great thread. Can you post pictures of your locally painted figures ? Would love to see samples of the work.
mike

Great posts everyone. Thank you for your insights.

Ludwig

 

[Napoleon1er]

I just heard from a good source that shipping by container is VERY cheap, and the only way it is expensive is if a company uses air shipping, which only K&C does, for some unknown reason.

 

[Phantom Warrior]

I just heard from a good source that shipping by container is VERY cheap, and the only way it is expensive is if a company uses air shipping, which only K&C does, for some unknown reason.

I had not heard that K&C uses air shipping. Are you sure that is for everything or just a few items? That's how Grey Goose gets some of the Figarti items so quickly - they have some of it shipped by air, but only some of it. It's one thing to ship a few by air out of 100 or 150 made, but K&C runs could be double and triple that so air freight doesn't sound practical to ship the entire production.

Terry

 

[jazzeum]

I believe K & C uses Fed Ex. Since they ship in bulk, they probably have a corporate rate and it's not as prohibitive as one may think it would be. Conversely, Figarti uses sea freight, which is why it takes forever to get something.

 

[tdubel]

Great thread, lots of good insight and from a business perspective, I think somewhat accurate.

First of all, I will never be one to begrudge a market profit, if you CAN, then DO.

That said, I am also an educated consumer, sometimes too much as it "can ruin" some of the naivete of being a collector. What I am having trouble with on all manufacturers is the polystone vehicles. I know that you can argue metal price and labor cost rising with regard to figures. That is an easy sourcing and labor (sculpt, paint) argument that holds water. Where I get agitated is the vehicles. I know from a number of clients who contract and manufacture polystone items, that they still have some things that sell for PENNIES comparatively. Now, I know and I don't want to discount any of the sculpting and design efforts that go into a model, but today's price points have pushed me over the edge on my buying. For me, I have refocused on the cottage industry "metal" makers, there I have always paid a near and dear price for metal toy soldiers, now they look like a bargain and they are about as hand made as you can get!

Again, my 2 cents and perspective only.

Tom

 

[The Military Workshop]

Just a minor point which I think is relevant. Whilst the NY art students were happy to paint some figures would those same students be interested to work full time painting such figures ?. To paint a few interesting figures for some study funds might be one thing but repeatedly painting the same figures might not be so tempting as a job. I have met many good figure painters but dont know any that would do it as a full time job (unless perhaps doing specialised custom work for an upper end client base).

The subject of cost of figures etc has been raised in many threads before and there is a lot more to it than just the factory cost involved. There is packaging, marketing (advertising and attending shows etc), wages for non factory staff, warehouse/storage and office space etc. These factors can not be ignored but almost always are when people do their calculations. If you are in the USA or UK and need to visit China to check your production runs how many figures do you need to sell just to cover the airfare ? Are you wholesaling or selling direct ? How much does it cost to pay the wages and work space of your first full time assistant ? What happens if your currency drops 10% - 15% in a short time ? Another assumption many make when calculating profit is that everything they make is sold and that is not always the case. Then there is the bit about how much are you willing to lose if it does not work out ?

About 12/13 years ago there were two annual figure shows in Brisbane Australia and the whos who of the Australian figure makers and sellers were there. At that time I was not a TS dealer but did attend these shows. I recall a maker from Sydney specialising in artillery, PNF from Melbourne. Ozfigs (or something like that) from NSW (an ex UK cop who later sold the business and got into wargaming sculpting). Shenandoah was there and they might be a brand familar to ACW collectors. I dont think Wilson Edward was going at that time. There were two brothers from NZ who I think were Regal. None of the Australian makers I saw at the show could match the Chinese made producers for quality and multiple variations of the same type of figure although pricing would be the same or more. They were making more static type figures as opposed to ones that could be collected to make a diorama or formation type display.

In more recent years I did make enquiries with Wilson Edward but his pricing was higher than K&C, Britains etc and supply was an issue as he only painted 600 figures per year as he was also a full time police officer. I think the exchange rate was also a major issue as with the A$ going higher the US collector would have been paying more solely due to the rate of exchange.

I know, from posts on this forum and from the London show, that the UK has many cottage producers but their quality and style is not the same as the made in China items and they can not compare when it comes to vehicles and planes. I am not so aware of USA producers although I know TF did the Shores of Tripoli. If it is that easy one would assume there would be more USA producers.

In relation to TG I do agree he has produced excellent figures at a good price (none of which incidentally are $30 per foot figure - those extra 2-4 $'s in %age terms can be quite significant over a year). He has also been innovative and kept his costs down by having variations of the same item (ie hat/no hat and 3 versions of some vehicles). However I am pretty sure it has not been easy and it has involved a lot of time, effort and cost in the early days to build it up to where it is now. Same goes for John Jenkins who has built a good business up in recent years.

Since it is so easy I guess it will not be long before we see the next new made in China brand. Whoever it is will have to be pretty good and have deep pockets to take on the current producers. For me personally I think the hard part would be deciding what era to make as that first series is make or break for a new brand (with Jenkins it was French and Indian wars and with TG it was Falschirmjagers).

Just my thoughts. Having produced a few things myself (120-200mm figures & figure kits and prints and a diecast item) and dealt with two people local to me who started a range (one made locally and the other in China) my experience is there is a lot more to it than just knowing a factory or the cost price.

Regards
Brett

 

[Mitch]

I presume he has less overheads than bigger companies so, less to add on to the end product. In relation to shipping has TG not stated many times that the ships will arrive at southampton on such a day. Costs less in the ship and, does not take as long as some seem to think.
Mitch