Hummel & Flakpanzer Question (1 Viewer)

The Soviets executed a great number Polish officers in '39 or '40 (can't remember the location name) when they joined the Germans in the invasion and bisecting of Poland to start of the war in Europe.

So the killing prisoners in mass was already a Soviet practice well before the Germans invaded Mother Russia.

It was the Katyn Forest massacre, which the Soviets denied until 1989-1990. See http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/cold.war/episodes/01/spotlight/index.html

It is no strange irony that it was Hitler's ally who helped defeat him and no further stranger irony that the people of Eastern Europe simply exchanged one totalitarian system for another.
 
I personally think Stalin and his forces were every bit as bad as Hitler and the Nazi's when it came to war crimes. However, they did fight on our side, and without them we very well could have lost the war, so I guess we should be thankful that Hitler chose to attack them.
 
This is an interesting argument. I don’t think there is much of a question that there was a massacre at the crossroads at Malmedy on that Christmas Eve in 1944. I think the better question is: was it a premeditated massacre?

Since that fateful day, this has remained one of the most emotionally charged arguments about WWII history. Just look recently at MSNBC’s Keith Olbermann’s emotionally charged commentary on Bill O'Reilly and Fox about the Malmedy Massacre.

I would encourage those interested in what actually happened at Malmedy to read as much about the incident as you can and formulate your own opinions. A good place to start is with Michael Reynolds' article from a 2003 issue of “World War II” magazine about Malmedy. You can find it at www.historynet.com/magazines/world_war_2/3030591.html

Semper Fi!
Rick

Rick,

Fascinating article. More details than I ever thought I would encounter of this massacre. I draw a slightly different conclusion than the author, and believe that whether or not it was premeditated, it was certainly an intentional massacre.

The fact that (1) several surviving German troops admitted to an officer giving them a direct order to open fire on the prisoners, (2) Hitler's order 4 days earlier that the advance was to be a "wave of terror" with no prisoners taken, (3) the lack of facilities among the Panzers (well ahead of the infantry that would ordinarily handle prisoners) to take care of 100+ prisoners and (4) no easy route to take these prisoners to the rear, in combination with (5) the testimony concerning said officer deliberately taking aim with a pistol and firing two shots at a specific prisoner prior to the general machine gunning of the prisoners, and (6) the administration of the coupe de grace to several wounded prisoners in the field, leads me to believe that the massacre was, if not premeditated, certainly a deliberate killing based on what appologists would call "the exigencies of war".

I don't buy that the escape attempt by at most 3 individuals led to a panic among experienced SS Panzer troops resulting in them generally opening fire on a group of more than 100 men not attempting to escape, especially with an American officer directing the prisoners to "stand fast".

Finally, the physical (machine gunned bodies in a row several yards from their vehicle) and testimonial evidence (on the part of a Belgian Civilian) of 5 other American prisoners being summarily shot after surrendering to this same column that same day on that same road leads me to believe that, being in excess of 12 hours behind schedule, the officers were simply unwilling to slow down to deal with prisoners. That's the explanation that makes the most sense to me.
 
It's amazing what a great diorama background will do for toy soldier displays. Greta job panda1gen, keep up the good work.

Carlos
 
I like your diorama pics. Lighting looks like a sunny winter morning. Nice effect. Leadmen
 
Oz,
I agree that the killings were not premeditated. The confusion about what was actually going on right before the shooting started created a "fog" on both sides. I guess this is why Clausewitz calls it "the fog of war."

I tend to put more credence in the statements and testimony of the survivors rather on those emotional accounts from the outside looking in. Forty-three of the Americans taken prisoner that day managed to escape and lived to tell about it. Here are the facts as accounted for by several of the American Survivors:

Fact: Survivors stated that they could hear one of the American Officers shouting "Standfast" to the stirring Americans as disorder escalated through the ranks.
Opinion: The fact that an American Officer would shout “Standfast” indicates to me that the Germans were not firing into the American ranks at this stage of the incident. If the Germans were firing into the American ranks with machineguns, the American Officer would have probably shouted something like “Run” or “Hit the deck.”

Fact: Germans opened up on the stirring Americans with machinegun and rifle fire. Note: At this point there is much conjecture about further breaking of ranks and attempts to overpower the German soldiers who were searching the Americans and whether the next series of shots were warning shots that created a chain reaction of firing.

Fact: Germans walked among the fallen Americans and administered the coup de grace shots to dying Americans. This action was a violation of the Law of War and clearly a war crime.

Semper Fi!
Rick

Rick, I agree totally with the facts you provided except for the above three which I think are the crux of the tragedy.

The fact that a US officer felt the need to order his men to "Standfast" strongly indicates to me that a significant number of the US soldiers were actually running rather than just 'stirring'. The US officer could indeed have shouted 'Standfast' because the Germans had already shot several escaping prisoners and the officer didn't want to see a general escape attempt with more being shot. This theory is supported by the fact that over forty survived, perhaps because they were those that did not run. (It is a well established fact that once prisoners attempt to escape the accepted rules say they can be shot - it is that simple.)

The Germans had absolute control of that area at that stage and the subsequent three to four weeks. And in truth I cannot see forty guys escaping across snow in daylight where they could have been tracked down in short time. I suspect very few escaped the searching Germans, and once caught they would most likely have been shot out of hand because they were escaping prisoners.

Furthermore, if the US officer believed they were being setup to be wiped out as unrequired prsioners he would have been VERY unlikely to shout 'Standfast' at ANY stage.

It should also be noted that the machine guns mentioned could well have been Machine Pistols that many German soldiers, particulary NCO's, carried rather than rifle ammo type machine guns. I don't know what firearms were actually used that day near Malmady, but considered that worth mentioning.

As for the credence of the witnesses. It should be noted that a number of the surviving US soldiers were coerced into giving evidence that wasn't entirely true. Whereas the Belgian civilians had no axe to grind, except perhaps against the invading Germans. In addition imo the survivors are much more likely than any civilians to have been affected emotionally by the incident, making the civilians version perhaps more reliable.

That said, I agree that shooting injured soldiers is technically a war crime. However, I understand it was not an uncommon practice by soldiers of all sides and perhaps welcomed by the injured person in some circumstances - not that that is a defence I guess.

As for a definition of masscre, of which there are many. Suffice to say we had a similar event in Australia but I don't feel either side ever viewed it as a masscre. Australia and Japan have more or less got over it as being one of those unpleasant events that happen in war especialy where there is a clash of different cultures: http://www.anzacday.org.au/history/ww2/anecdotes/cowra.html
 
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Oz,

I'm sure you didn't mean this to sound the way it did but shooting prisoners is not "technically" a war crime, it is a war crime. Nor could I understand persons wanting to be shot either because they're wounded.

I think it's admirable that Australia and Japan have gotten over the Cowra incident but I don't know if relatives of American soliders who were shot feel that way. It is important to forgive, but to forget, no. I had several relatives (who I never knew) perish in the concentration camps. I cannot feel bitterness to this generation of Germans who were not alive when atrocities were committed but I also can never forget that it was their forebears who did it.

I believe Germany also believes this as the magnificent museum in Nuremberg is a testament to this. As a side note, I visited Nuremberg in April 2005 on business but took a day to see the museum and where the rallies were held. It will be a moment I will never forget. When I told my mother I was going she was filled with revulsion as she can never forgive the Germans as she is from the WW II era. However, I found the visit fascinating and the German people I met very friendly. I hope to get back to Germany some day and was sorry I couldn't make it there for the World Cup this year.
 
You are correct Brad, I was not using the term 'technically' to diminish what the Germans did. And to be honest I don't know what the authorities class as a war crime.

In hindsight I guess it is easier for most Australians to be objective about the land war against the Germans in Europe as few Aussies served there, except for North Africa which was a relativelty chivalrous theatre.

That said there were many thousands of Australians that flew in bombers over Germany (including my Father). And I guess some people would say that strategic bombing was a war crime in some respects. If you were a civilian on the receiving end I suspect you would think so. But I tend to side with Bomber Harris on that issue.

There was certainly a lot of ill feeling in Australia against the behaviour of Japanese servicemen in WWII. Much is said about their soldiers but even their sailors routinely machine-gunned men, women and children that survived torpedo and ship attacks. In fact in some respects the Japanese were worse than the average German soldier. There are still many older Austarlians that refuse to buy a Japaenese car. But as you suggest, we have to forgive at some stage and move on.

Which I think we should do in this thread as we keep going off topic - mainly my fault ;)
 
And to be honest I don't know what the authorities class as a war crime.
Oz,
By World War I, Several nations including Germany had accepted that certain violations of the laws of war—much of which had been codified in the Hague Conventions of 1899 and 1907—were crimes. Germany signed and ratified the laws laid down in both Conventions.

Later the Germans were among the nations that signed and ratified the Third Geneva Convention (1929) which further set rules of conduct of concerning the treatment of prisioners of war. These treaties represent a legal basis for International Law with regard to conduct of warfare.

Without quoting you article by article of the different conventions, here are some highlights that pertain to Malmedy.

"Prisoners of war must at all times be humanely treated."

"...Prisoners of war must at all times be protected, particularly against acts of violence."

"The use of weapons against prisoners of war, especially against those who are escaping or attempting to escape, shall constitute an extreme measure, which shall always be preceded by warnings appropriate to the circumstances."

It is especially forbidden -
To kill or wound treacherously individuals belonging to the hostile nation or army;
To kill or wound an enemy who, having laid down his arms, or having no longer means of defence, has surrendered at discretion;
To declare that no quarter will be given;

There are many more that pertain but I think you get the picture.
Semper Fi!
Rick
 
Oz,
By World War I, Several nations including Germany had accepted that certain violations of the laws of war—much of which had been codified in the Hague Conventions of 1899 and 1907—were crimes. Germany signed and ratified the laws laid down in both Conventions.

Later the Germans were among the nations that signed and ratified the Third Geneva Convention (1929) which further set rules of conduct of concerning the treatment of prisioners of war. These treaties represent a legal basis for International Law with regard to conduct of warfare.

Without quoting you article by article of the different conventions, here are some highlights that pertain to Malmedy.

"Prisoners of war must at all times be humanely treated."

"...Prisoners of war must at all times be protected, particularly against acts of violence."

"The use of weapons against prisoners of war, especially against those who are escaping or attempting to escape, shall constitute an extreme measure, which shall always be preceded by warnings appropriate to the circumstances."

It is especially forbidden -
To kill or wound treacherously individuals belonging to the hostile nation or army;
To kill or wound an enemy who, having laid down his arms, or having no longer means of defence, has surrendered at discretion;
To declare that no quarter will be given;

There are many more that pertain but I think you get the picture.
Semper Fi!
Rick

I love this forum! Rick you write like I would like to think I write in drafting an appellate brief (and I mean that as a compliment). You do careful research and then draft a suscinct and informative statement of the relevant law or facts. In a brief post, you provided virtually all of the legal underpinnings a prosecutor would need to prepare for trial of a war crime involving the abuse or murder of POW's.
 

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