If Ordered, I couldn't............. (1 Viewer)

[Currahee Chris]

Hey gang:

Complete the above sentence- if you were ordered, in a combat situation, to perform any of the amazing feats we read about in military history, which one, if ordered, would you tell your CO to pound sand.

Obviously we can avoid things like shooting innocent women, children and men, gassing people, etc- I am talking a legitimate, lawful order which would really make you take pause and say- whoa, hang on a mo.

For me, no doubt about it- going over the top in a WW1 trench. I just don't know how those guys found the mustard to do that. I know, especially after reading about it and watching flicks like Gallipoli, that I would pause to the point of cowardice and take my chances with the board of review (if given the chance). It just blows my mind the iron those guys had to do that.

Any other opinions?

 

[Louis Badolato]

Chris,

I think you hit it right on the nose. I cannot recall ever reading of one of those over the top attacks being successful. At best, they resulted in a temporary salient into the German trenches which was retaken within hours or at most days. The lines stayed in the same 1000 yards or so over a period of around 3 years. Being ordered to go run into barbed wire while being caught in a crossfire of machineguns would do it for me. I would rather shoot the idiot giving the order, and in being executed, at least know I gave my life to save the lives of my comrades. Frankly, when I see statues of Douglas Haig and Foch, I wish I could go back in time and send them over the top to certain death.

 

[Combat]

As a bit of an aside, I recently heard something about German soldiers using drugs on the eastern front. Apparently, they were given various narcotics to enhance their endurance and bulk them up when performing executions. A great deal of alcohol use is also evident throughout military history. For example, the sailors of the Royal Navy in the early days consumed tremendous amouts of the grog. They had to be drunk most of the time. Under stressful combat-type conditions, it seems natural that many soldiers would look to alcohol to bolster some of their actions. In some cases, the commanders would provide it to them for that purpose. Of course, it would also impair their judgement. There is also tremendous peer pressure among individual members of a unit that can influence behavior and make them do things they ordinarily would not.

 

[lancer]

I would agree that the "over the top" scenario would be my #1 no-go except for this, tunnel rat. How anyone could force themselves to go into a hole in the ground, in the dark, alone, and in a very confined area, is beyond me. All human fears bunched into one activity. -- Al

 

[Rob]

As a bit of an aside, I recently heard something about German soldiers using drugs on the eastern front. Apparently, they were given various narcotics to enhance their endurance and bulk them up when performing executions. A great deal of alcohol use is also evident throughout military history. For example, the sailors of the Royal Navy in the early days consumed tremendous amouts of the grog. They had to be drunk most of the time. Under stressful combat-type conditions, it seems natural that many soldiers would look to alcohol to bolster some of their actions. In some cases, the commanders would provide it to them for that purpose. Of course, it would also impair their judgement. There is also tremendous peer pressure among individual members of a unit that can influence behavior and make them do things they ordinarily would not.

Indeed.I understand quite a few of the Scots Greys at Waterloo had sunk a few,as had British troops who went over the top at the Somme on the 1st July 1916.God knows I'd have needed a few whiskies to climb out of those Trenches that day and walk slowly towards the enemy.

Rob

 

[Cardigan600]

Yo Troopers fully agree with the Trench comments. But what gets me even more is the "Charge Of The Light Brigade" Lord Cardigan gets the order to charge down the valley knowing its certain death hence his words "Well here goes the last of the Brudenells". Now Lord Cardigan was one of the most powerful men in England (Loaded) and he had the power to say to his bother-in-Law Lord Lucan. Hey you get that Pratt Nolan back up to Lord Raglan and ask him again that he wants me to get the "Light Brigade" massacred. First off it would have called Nolans Bluff, and second it would have took less than an hour, and lets face it the Russian Army wasn't going anywhere in the next few months. But we all know the answer, so how much bottle did those Cavalry guys have. They must have all been nutty to obey that order, but hence the 17th Lancers motto "Death Before Dishonour" I would have shot my horse in the foot or better still cut the saddle straps with the old Sabre and fell off at the start, got up and said "God **** it missed all the fun again" lol.
Bernard.

 

[tdubel]

Picket's Charge, I would have asked the age old question that if we know flanking the enemy works, why on this green earth would we charge up the middle???????????


TD

 

[Combat]

Picket's Charge, I would have asked the age old question that if we know flanking the enemy works, why on this green earth would we charge up the middle???????????


TD

There was an interesting computer re-creation done by one of the investigating history shows that demonstrated rather convincingly that the actual casualty figures from Pickett's charge were much lower than they should have been. The conclusion being that many involved in the charge did not make it very far before turning back or hunkering down until it was over. Voting with their feet so to speak.

 

[Spitfrnd]

Joining the British storming assaults at the Spanish fortresses of Badajoz or San Sebastian. Of course the Forlorn Hope (first wave troops) was voluntary but the slaughter was far from limited to those poor soles. It gives real meaning to the phrase "cannon fodder". Then again, being in the front lines of a French battlefield attack in the Napoleonic Wars was not very rational either.

I am not surprised that many voted with their feet in Pickett's charge but rather surprised that the casualties were still not devastating. Is it not true that the charge left Picket with less than half of his division?

 

[tdubel]

Joining the British storming assaults at the Spanish fortresses of Badajoz or San Sebastian. Of course the Forlorn Hope (first wave troops) was voluntary but the slaughter was far from limited to those poor soles. It gives real meaning to the phrase "cannon fodder". Then again, being in the front lines of a French battlefield attack in the Napoleonic Wars was not very rational either.

I am not surprised that many voted with their feet in Pickett's charge but rather surprised that the casualties were still not devastating. Is it not true that the charge left Picket with less than half of his division?

I believe so, I know that when Pickett visited Lee on his death bed, apparently upon leaving, he muttered something along the lines of "that man cost me half my division".

Tom

 

[pugio]

Being handed a flashlight and .45 and told to check out that tunnel in Nam. Thankfully, I was never asked.

 

[DMNamiot]

Hi Guys,

Very interesting question. My first thoughts were of the Crimean and the Charge. I am also amazed by the stones of the guys charging in the breach at Badajoz and other places. But for me I think it would have been very difficult to comply with an order to break contact and conduct an orderly move in a retrograde operation under fire, such as was the case so often on the Eastern Front for the German Army.

Always can count on Chris to ask an interesting question.

Dave

 

[DCN1898]

I would have to say the Tunnel Rat Scenario would be mine. I have not (thank God) experienced it, but going over the top, the the Light Brigade and Pickett's charge was a group doing an insane act. It is a little easier to do a thing when the group is going to do something than when you are on your own.
I remember reading an account of the Iron Brigade of the Union Army at Brawner's Farm just before the 2nd Bull Run. The 2nd Wisconsin had been in combat before at 1st Bull Run, for the other regiments this was their first engagement. The 2nd Wisconsin men didn't want to look weak to the new regiments, The new regiments wanted to show that they were as good as the "old timers' . Thus the brigade stayed on the field longer than what would have been normally thought possible against Stonewall Jackson's troops.
Never underestimate the power of group insanity. Also think of the Japanese soldiers in many of their charges during WWII.

 

[Currahee Chris]

Being handed a flashlight and .45 and told to check out that tunnel in Nam. Thankfully, I was never asked.

Great point (no pun intended). At least over the top you have swarms of guys to help give you the extra push you need- down there all alone with the smell and silence must haunt a lot of guys.

Thanks a ton for your service!!
CC

 

[Currahee Chris]

As a bit of an aside, I recently heard something about German soldiers using drugs on the eastern front. Apparently, they were given various narcotics to enhance their endurance and bulk them up when performing executions. A great deal of alcohol use is also evident throughout military history. For example, the sailors of the Royal Navy in the early days consumed tremendous amouts of the grog. They had to be drunk most of the time. Under stressful combat-type conditions, it seems natural that many soldiers would look to alcohol to bolster some of their actions. In some cases, the commanders would provide it to them for that purpose. Of course, it would also impair their judgement. There is also tremendous peer pressure among individual members of a unit that can influence behavior and make them do things they ordinarily would not.

Very good points- Operation Gothic Serpent "Blackhawk Down" discusses a lot of the Somalis who were strung out on a narco called "khat". I think if memory serves, the Aussie's pass a canter of scotch before they go over against the Turks.

Some others that would severely test me- anything in a submarine or fighter plane. Could probably do it but would rather leave it to men with stronger fiber.

 

[hsm]

Where are you lads hiding your fighting Spirit? If you were there you would do what everybody else is doing! This thread is terrible.
These men died a death in an honourble profession that only those who serve would understand.
What if Bromhead and Bourne cut and run. You lads wouldn't be playing with your wee soljers would you?

In more recent history, The Paras attacked Mount Longdon Against all calcualabel (i think i just made this word up) odds, as did the 343 men of the FDNY climg the stairs at WTC.

They did this for the Regiment, and their buddies- Collectors are CO's and Sergeant Majors of your own little armies....

"Pipes and Ascots ,tunes of glory"

I find all of these events listed thus far in this thread, remarkable feats, and examples of the Human condition....

"c'mon you apes, do you want to live forever?"

rant ends!

 

[Spitfrnd]

Where are you lads hiding your fighting Spirit? If you were there you would do what everybody else is doing! This thread is terrible.
These men died a death in an honourble profession that only those who serve would understand.
What if Bromhead and Bourne cut and run. You lads wouldn't be playing with your wee soljers would you?

In more recent history, The Paras attacked Mount Longdon Against all calcualabel (i think i just made this word up) odds, as did the 343 men of the FDNY climg the stairs at WTC.

They did this for the Regiment, and their buddies- Collectors are CO's and Sergeant Majors of your own little armies....

"Pipes and Ascots ,tunes of glory"

I find all of these events listed thus far in this thread, remarkable feats, and examples of the Human condition....

"c'mon you apes, do you want to live forever?"

rant ends!

Yes well some of us apes who have served draw a wee bit of a line between brave and foolish. Sometimes the lines are merged but many of the events described are more one than the other. Yes BTW, forever would be nice.

 

[marco55]

In the civil war large bodies of troops attacking would start off walking all the while cannons would be booming at them yet they kept their formations.I don't know how they did this.I would fight but I would skidaddle out of the line.
Mark

 

[Simpson & his donkey.]

A night attack with Thousands of Chinese charging blowing bugles and whistles would take the wind up me.Simmo.

 

[Go for Broke]

I rather go "over the top" than to battle you guys about scale, weight and accuracy.