I'm fed up off having no Brits (1 Viewer)

[nmrocks]

One thing is for certain, the Soviets defeat of germany saved the german people from being hit by a pair of Atomic Bombs, if they had still been in the war they would have been the first hit.
Ray

 

[jazzeum]

Since you've apparently closed your mind to contrary views, there is not much point in discussing the issue

 

[Rob]

Since you've apparently closed your mind to contrary views, there is not much point in discussing the issue

I don't think anyone can deny that the Red Army and The Russian civilians lost a great deal more people than we did,its a fact that is agreed upon in every book and television programme produced.We can argue about the atrocities carried out by both sides,but the Russians suffered a hell of a lot worse than Britain or America did.

In this debate we have to differentiate between the Red Amy of WW2 and the Cold War of later decades,they were on our side in WW2 and i don't really care what they did to the SS they Captured,just rewards i say.

Rob

 

[Capitolron]

Surely you're kidding. The Russian casualties (both combatants and non combatants) are staggering, in numbers that it's impossible for the mind to comprehend: combatants 11 million, non-combatants 12 million. As a percentage of total population, it was 13 percent. In comparison, the USA percentage was 0.32 percent and the UK was 0.94 percent.

.

Brad

Just wanted to know - are you including in your 13% all the Russian people that were killed by Russians ?? KGB, Stalin Death Squads ??

Ron

 

[Rob]

Apart from the grim statistics can you imagine what a nightmare D Day would have been if Hitler hadn't had all those troops fighting on the eastern front,would have been a much tougher proposition.

Rob

 

[johngambale]

WE NEED MORE BRITISH D-DAY BATTLE-of-CAEN; and 8th Army N. Africa! Frontline made quite a Bunch of British D-Day Sets and they look GREAT! But, of course they're Smaller than K& C!

 

[jazzeum]

Brad

Just wanted to know - are you including in your 13% all the Russian people that were killed by Russians ?? KGB, Stalin Death Squads ??

Ron

A legitimate question. The statistics in question were taken from a Wikipedia article which I am loath to use. However, the article in question appears to have been well researched, with citations. Here is the answer:

The official total of military deaths is 8,668,400; including 6,330,000 killed in action/died of wounds and 556,000 dead from non-combat causes plus an estimated 500,000 MIA and 1,283,000 POW dead out of 4,059,000 total POW. However, the estimate by western historians of Soviet military POW deaths is about 3 million (out of 5.7 million total POWs). Richard Overy has noted that " The official figures themselves must be viewed critically, given the difficulty of knowing in the chaos of 1941 and 1942 exactly who had been killed, wounded or even conscripted". The official statistics do not include an additional estimated 1,500,000 conscripted reservists missing or killed, primarily in 1941, before being listed on active strength,150,000 militia and 250,000 Soviet partisan dead. Total Soviet population losses included approximately 13 million men aged 17 to 39.

Civilian losses presented here are for USSR in 1939 borders. Total deaths in the USSR, within the borders of 1946-1991, exceeded the pre war level by 26,600,000 from 1941-45, including about 3 million civilian dead in the territories annexed by the USSR in 1939-1940, in this schedule they are not included with USSR losses nor are the 215,000 Soviet war dead in the German armed forces. Civilian losses in territories annexed by USSR are included in totals of the Baltic states(600,000), Poland(2,000,000), Czechoslovakia(80,000) and Romania(300,000). The total Soviet population in 1941 of 196.7 million has been adjusted only for net population transfers. Civilian losses were documented by the Soviet Extraordinary State Commission . Contemporary Russian historians estimate 2.5 to 3.2 million civilian dead due to famine in Soviet territory not occupied by the Germans, these deaths are included in Soviet civilian losses.

A Russian historian Vadim Erlikman has detailed Soviet losses totaling 26.5 million war related deaths plus 1.7 million victims of Soviet repression. Military losses of 10.6 million include 7.6 million killed or missing in action and 2.6 million POW dead (out of 5.2 million total POWs), plus 400,000 paramilitary and Soviet partisan losses. Civilian deaths totaled 15.9 million which included 1.5 million from military actions; 7.1 million victims of Nazi genocide and reprisals; 1.8 million deported to Germany for forced labor; and 5.5 million famine and disease deaths (including 3.0 million in the territory not under German occupation). Additional famine deaths which totaled 1 million during 1946-47 are not included here. These losses are for the entire territory of the USSR including territories annexed in 1939-40

Total military and civilian losses of the individual Soviet republics were : Russia 13,950,000; Armenia 180,000; Azerbaijan 300,000; Belarus (1945 borders) 2,290,000; Georgia 300,000; Moldova 170,000; Ukraine (1945 borders) 6,850,000; Estonia 65,000; Latvia 250,000; Lithuania (1945 borders) 370,000; Kazakhstan 660,000; Kyrgyzstan 120,00; Tajikistan 120,000; Turkmenistan 100,000; Uzbekistan 550,000.

The genocide of Roma (gypsies) people was 30,000 persons. Jewish Holocaust victims totaled 1,000,000.

The article may be found here .

 

[Combat]

There is some irony that we are beating up the Russians again particularly given that our beloved KC sets are made in China.

 

[damian]

Just to point out, Operation Bagration in the east coincided with Overlord and it destroyed a whole army group. It was in many respects more devastating for the Germans than the Overlord campaign in the west. I feel we should stop comparing human suffering. It was the Russian people not the communist party which defeated the Nazis. Furthermore the west did not do a good job of supporting some of the eastern countries after the war. Poor Poland. Britain went to war to defend Poland yet Poland suffered severely after the war and for the following 50 years.

Anyway enough of the heavy stuff. I have written about this before and at the risk of repeating myself to death I will mention it again. The British land Commonwealth troops of late WWII era have never been popular. Look at the Airfix sets of the 1970's and 1980's. The Brits had a lot of Eight Army stuff, Lots of commandos and Paras but hardly ever Normandy figures. The same for the Britains deetail plastic figures. Tons of North Africa Brits but not much in the way of Normandy. The same trend seems to be true at present. I cannot explain why but it is probably something to do with the popular imagination. Before anyone says that our Amercian friends dominate and such like remember that the Pacific Mairnes Iwo Jima stuff doesn't seem to sell and to be honest it never really has. I have no explanation for these trends. Perhaps it has something to do with the uniforms. You know the Denison smock worn by the Paras is just kind of for want of a better word sexy. Same with the SS camo. The poor old tin hat and brown uniform of the Tommy perhaps is just not as sexy.

I personally would like to see more Brits but to be honest there is enough on my collecting plate at the moment so I am not going to demand
Regards
As always
Damian

 

[damian]

I suppose writing the Russian effort out of WWII is a bit like a team claiming to be world champions without having had to beat New Zealand at rugby.
Regards
Damian

 

[Harrytheheid]

Well.....That was kinda interesting.
Okay, onto the next controversy, but as far as I'm concerned, raspberries to the Red Army.

Cheers
H

 

[Rob]

Harry,you should try reading Armageddon by Max Hastings mate,it might soften your view of the Red Army role in WW2

I'm also not forgetting of the wholesale rape of the women of Berlin which was an atrocious war crime.

Rob

 

[jazzeum]

Getting back to Kevin's original point, another month without British D Day releases. However, I do like the Arnhem releases but would love to see more Tommies or something related for D Day. Guess it's just not going to happen anytime soon, unfortunately.

 

[OzDigger]

I have to agree, the Brits are a bit short changed in their representation as far as the Western Front is concerned. They got some extra support in the Desert recently so maybe it's time for some more in the European Theatre. A Firefly/Sherman or better still (imo) a Comet would provide some welcome armoured support for late war dios: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comet_tank

 

[Larry Allen]

Getting into the fray a little late, but after reading the interesting threads one point was not mentioned.

Recall that Stalin and the Russian government made a "pact" with Hitler (non-aggression). This opened the way for Hitler and his Nazi thugs to invade Poland with no fear of Russian involvement. So Hitler was handed Poland and surrounding countries on a sliver platter, thanks to Stalin and his plans.

In addition Stalin "INVADED" Finland. The Russians were just as bad as the Nazis! I am not saying that Russian and Germany would ever have been "buds" but they co-operated at the beginning of the war as "Allies".
Only when Hitler went back on his treaty (Imagine that??) and invaded Russia did they become adversaries.

Makes you wounder if Hitler didn't attack Russia and focused on the West, what would Stalin and Russian Army have done after Finland?

General Patton was right after all!!!!

 

[OzDigger]

Maybe they should change that saying to: Politics AND War, make strange bed fellows

I'm sure most people are unlikely to change their views on Russia before, during or after WWII, so I suggest we stay on the 'More Brits' promotion

 

[binder001]

As to the Eastern Front - I don't think much of communism and less of Stalin but I admire the heck out of the Russian people. They absorbed the heaviest punches of the German army at the height of its power and still came back not only to survive but to prevail. You don't have to love them but you would be foolish not to respect them.

As to the British forces - I agree that they seem under represented. They had an interesting mix of British and American vehicles, interesting uniforms and multiple nationalities (British, Canadians, Czechs, Poles, Dutch). Even if the British don't sell well on their own one could do mixed operations like the Churchill Crocodiles that supported the US in the attacks on the Roer River line, the 29th Armoured Brigade engaging the Germans spearheads in the Ardennes, etc. I don't recall - have K&C depicted any of the Canadians from 21 Army Group? That's a large omission if so.

Gary

 

[Panda]

If Andy cant put a kilt on it he wont make it. As for the English K&C definately have an agenda to wipe them out of History

 

[nasirkasmani]

If Andy cant put a kilt on it he wont make it. As for the English K&C definately have an agenda to wipe them out of History

Those Hans don't wear kilt mate..

i don't think he has anti-english agenda, he made the excellent 8th army didn't he?

he haven't recently make Italians, so he's anti Italians too?

fact is, Andy makes what he wants, and we dont always get what we want him to make.

so many people here asked for more of the Soviets but none are forthcoming either.